Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[Vinayaka]

When people approach others in the way you're describing, I absolutely don't think it helps anyone. On the other hand, I know that there are roughly 800-900 convert baptisms into my church every day, so evidently somebody was glad that the Mormon missionaries approached them.

For the record, I kind of like Mormons ... as people. I can't agree with the philosophy, but the good Mormons I knew were great people. A couple bad apples, sure. In Salt lake city, your president gave the Hindu temple there the last 10% of the fund -raising goal, which I thought was an admirable gesture. It was a place of pilgrimage for me. Actualy something funny happened on the way home. At a motel, we were discussing with the front clerk, and she asked if we saw THE temple, and we said we did. Wasn't a lie, just not the whole truth.

 

[Vinayaka]

I appreciate that. The comment was a response to Mestimia

Oops... That's why I usually use quotes.

 

[Vinayaka]

Shaivism.net talked about it

Oh. I trust you on that. I don't have time to look close, but it seemed quite aligned to Kashmiri Saivism. There are six schools of Saivism, and that's not mine. There are tremendous variations: linguistically, geographically, style of worship, etc.

 

[McBell]

We should just dispense with the bs and get to the point. You know what I believe as I gave an example of the truth Christians believe when talking about sin separating us from God in the post you pointed out. My guess is that you don't want to hear me say again the message of Jesus, it's posted everywhere on this site. You want proof of whether it's true, am I right?

Actually, I was hoping that you would be the very first person in all of history to support your claim of "firm theological truth" with something other than logical fallacies and or bold unsubstantiated claims.

Seems you know that you cannot actually support your claim and are now attempting a song and dance diversion tactic.

I would love for you to dispense with your BS, but I am not going to hold my breath.

It is most interesting how you go on and on about truth, yet can offer nothing to support that what you claim is truth has any truth what so ever.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Actually, I was hoping that you would be the very first person in all of history to support your claim of "firm theological truth" with something other than logical fallacies and or bold unsubstantiated claims.

Seems you know that you cannot actually support your claim and are now attempting a song and dance diversion tactic.

I would love for you to dispense with your BS, but I am not going to hold my breath.

It is most interesting how you go on and on about truth, yet can offer nothing to support that what you claim is truth has any truth what so ever.

People demand that God/Jesus' existence and love for them be proved to them on their terms and not his. You want to see x, y and z before you'll believe. That's where everyone who worships science end up missing out on the most amazing thing that could ever happen to them. You want proof that you can wrap your mind around just like you want to trust in only the things you can wrap your mind around as if the human brain is capable of fathoming all the mysteries of the universe. If you want to experience things that'll blow your mind from the bottom of your heart say "God, if you're out there reveal yourself to me." Or you can say "Jesus, if you're actually real and if you're actually God make that known to me." That's a pretty low risk, low committment way to start.

 

[McBell]

People demand that God/Jesus' existence and love for them be proved to them on their terms and not his. You want to see x, y and z before you'll believe. That's where everyone who worships science end up missing out on the most amazing thing that could ever happen to them. You want proof that you can wrap your mind around just like you want to trust in only the things you can wrap your mind around as if the human brain is some capable of fathoming all the mysteries of the universe. If you want to experience things that'll blow your mind from the bottom of your heart say "God, if you're out there reveal yourself to me." Or you can say "Jesus, if you're actually real and if you're actually God make that known to me." That's a pretty low risk, low committment way to start.

*yawn*
I really wish you people would get a new song.
That one got old more than 30 years ago.

Now if you are through with your age old emotional sermon rant, would you care to actually address the post the above outdated song was in reply to?

 

[Draka]

So someone (or some people) actually came up to you and used the words "you should believe like me because I believe it", "you don't have a good reason for believing what you do", or "let me tell you how wrong you are and how right I am"?

Not with those exact words, but with those meanings and insinuations. Shoot, I've had an ex co-worker literally follow me around the workplace at break times with her bible in hand trying to tell me why I should believe else I'm going to hell and quoting scripture at me. I got her fired for it.

I guess it's possible, but it sounds more like you just don't like the idea of absolute truth, specifically the kind that come from the Christian doctrines of accountability and eternal punishment. It also sounds like you're projecting a lot of those motivations onto people (once again of the Christian brand, but if I'm wrong on that let me know) instead of the claim itself.

I've stated that the same goes for anyone who proselytizes. Anyone who pushes that their belief is the only "right" one to have. That even on the other end of the spectrum, atheists are guilty of it too.

"Truth" is a personally revealed thing and should be left at that. I have found mine and you have found yours and mine works for me and yours for you. Neither should be inflicted upon the other as a need or must. I'm happy to answer questions about my faith to those truly interested in learning about it and if I have questions about the manner of belief of another religion I will ask for the information or go in search of it myself. Faith and belief should be a personal quest anyway. No one should need told what they should or should not believe.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

*yawn*
I really wish you people would get a new song.
That one got old more than 30 years ago.

Now if you are through with your age old emotional sermon rant, would you care to actually address the post the above outdated song was in reply to?

If you're waiting for a mathematical formula to explain it before you'll take a step of faith then you'll probably miss the boat. Maybe God isn't willing to work through science to reach you but maybe he's willing to reach you in a more effective way that you haven't even thought of.

 

[McBell]

If you're waiting for a mathematical formula to explain it before you'll take a step of faith then you'll probably miss the boat. Maybe God isn't willing to work through science to reach you but maybe he's willing to reach you in a more effective way that you haven't even thought of.

Actually I was waiting for you to present something other more unsubstantiated claims.

Seems like I will not be seeing anything of the sort from you.

I would suggest that in the future you refrain from dictating to people what they want, know, think, feel, and believe,
It comes across as desperation on your part.

 

[Vinayaka]

I got her fired for it.

That's absolutely awesome. Too bad forums weren't like employers!
:yes:

 

[Draka]

That's absolutely awesome. Too bad forums weren't like employers!
:yes:

You know, at first I just rolled my eyes at her and considered her nutters and it didn't bother me that badly. But when I heard her make a VERY bad comment about this young girl's ailing Jewish grandfather I had had enough. I went to my center manager and reported what she was doing to me. Pick on me, whatever, make a 16 y/o girl who's worried about her grandfather cry...you're outta here. No one needs to work with a ***** like that.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Actually I was waiting for you to present something other more unsubstantiated claims.

Seems like I will not be seeing anything of the sort from you.

I would suggest that in the future you refrain from dictating to people what they want, know, think, feel, and believe,
It comes across as desperation on your part.

What is the proof you seek? What would make the claim substantiated in your mind? An I do apologize if you didn't appreciate me attempting to interpret what the "real" issue you had with the Christian message was.

 

[McBell]

What is the proof you seek? What would make the claim substantiated in your mind?

I am seeking something that does not rely on lies, dishonesty, ignorance, fallacy, or a pile of unsubstantiated claims.

 

[Vinayaka]

You know, at first I just rolled my eyes at her and considered her nutters and it didn't bother me that badly. But when I heard her make a VERY bad comment about this young girl's ailing Jewish grandfather I had had enough. I went to my center manager and reported what she was doing to me. Pick on me, whatever, make a 16 y/o girl who's worried about her grandfather cry...you're outta here. No one needs to work with a ***** like that.

And the other sad thing is .... they just don't get it. All this inflicting of pain and creation of disharmony .... and they just don't get it. It can be so frustrating. You certainly did the right thing. I was at a very sacred site in South India, and the Hare Krishnas were there handing out their Bibles. (Bhagavad-Gita) Literally thousands of other happy people walked right past them on the way to inside the temple. They were upset, ranting, trying to convince other Hindus to become members of their particular sect ... it was very very weird. Everyone else was so happy and they looked so frustrated.. and they just didn't get it. How can such a blatantly obvious thing like that to you or me go right over their heads! Stop proseltysing! Sheesh.

 

[McBell]

An I do apologize if you didn't appreciate me attempting to interpret what the "real" issue you had with the Christian message was.

Apology accepted.

I do not have any underlying reasons.
I flat out do not accept it because I have never heard anything in support of it that does not fall under logical fallacies and or unsupported claims.

My issue is not with what you believe, but that you continuously refer to it as truth even when you cannot support your claim that it is truth.

In my mind, that makes it belief, not truth.

 

[Vinayaka]

I am seeking something that does not rely on lies, dishonesty, ignorance, fallacy, or a pile of unsubstantiated claims.

Oh, oh, I hear footsteps coming from all directions. All saying what they have is exactly what you need...

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I am seeking something that does not rely on lies, dishonesty, ignorance, fallacy, or a pile of unsubstantiated claims.

That's not very clear. Are you asking for something tangible, something that the 5 senses can pick up? Do you want a mathematical formula you can understand? What about eyewitness testimony of grace and faithfulness too wonderful for words? Would you take my word for it anyways or would you have to see it for yourself first?

 

[McBell]

That's not very clear. Are you asking for something tangible, something that the 5 senses can pick up? Do you want a mathematical formula you can understand? What about eyewitness testimony of grace and faithfulness too wonderful for words? Would you take my word for it anyways or would you have to see it for yourself first?

Present something that is not merely an unsubstantiable claim or a logical fallacy.

 

[Draka]

Not to speak for Mestemia, but how about validated documentation outside of the bible which substantiates that what the bible says is true? How about explaining how it is that so many of the parts of the bible are obviously not literal and, at the most speak metaphorically, and yet the whole of it is to be taken as some kind of "truth"? Who decides, and how, certain parts of the bible are to be taken as literal truth and what parts are just allegory? How about those things for starters?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Present something that is not merely an unsubstantiable claim or a logical fallacy.

Are you even open to the possibility that God may want to reach you in a way that you haven't thought of or isn't presently on your list of demands? Make not mistake about it, I'm talking about possibly having a "power" encounter with God.