Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[chinu]

Do you really think you are helping anyone? When you evangelize and preach your religion to other people?

Yes.

But somebody forces me to do this, I myself don't do this .

_/\_
Chinu

 

[Vinayaka]

Speaking of that...

My elementary school has (or at least had) a tendency to have students decorate the really big Christmas tree in the school's lobby.

Usually a class will get an opportunity to take a "field trip" to the lobby to do some decorating, then another class will get a turn to do some decorating. Unless I'm wrong and they picked a handful of kids from each class to do some decorating.

Anyway...

The year my oldest sister was in Kindergarten, she was one of a handful of students picked to spend time decorating the tree. Normally, one would write this off as "eh, it's kids making things pretty".

Except... at some point, it was made known that at that time, the Jewish kids were very specifically selected for this task, because "They were given an opportunity to take part in something they were being deprived of at home."

How awful. How arrogant. How disgusting.

The school's administration got an earful from my mother about that, and you better believe they never tried to pull crap like that ever again.

This stuff happens, I'm not sure how often, but it happens. In my school we had a timid, and somewhat frightened JW child. At least two of his teachers forced him to stand for the national anthem, despite full knowledge he was JW. I could be wrong though. Maybe the policy has changed.

In the years before I gave in, when I refused to participate in the Christmas concert, I, a Hindu, took care of all the JWs and Islam kids in the library. I set up games and we just had fun. Usually over time, other kids who hated singing and being forced to stand still wanted to convert, just for a couple of weeks, so they could have fun in the library.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You know...I'm noticing how Christians are telling non-Christians to suck it up and not to interfere in their public displays of their faith at a public venue.

No worries. When I desperately tried to be a good Christian back in the day, I used to say the same thing. That somehow it was more rude of non-Christians to ask me to stop expressing a faith than it was for me to pray in their faces.

Being a non-Christian, and having been on both sides of the fence, it's glaringly obvious to me which is more rude and disrespectful.

 

[waitasec]

the Constitution just makes sure no religious tradition becomes part of the formal mechanisms of State.
.

well, it failed miserably, because the christian religious tradition seems to be
infused with our culture (in the US)
thereby, mob mentality is the norm.

 

[waitasec]

But we're talking about two different things, and two different levels of activity. An atheist billboard, for instance, is a different beast from a religious invocation at a public event. One says "here is my opinion that I would like to express to you", while the other says "here is the opinion that I expect all of us to share". One has an implicit message of inclusion, and therefore excludes people who don't agree with it. The other doesn't have this.

If someone wanted to start sporting events with a sing-along of "I'm so Happy We're all Atheists" instead of a prayer, I'd be opposed to that, too.

Also, while my preference would be for less in the way of public displays of religion, I also feel that as long as they exist, I should be able to respond in kind.

you said it!!
i just had to repost...

 

[Kathryn]

Oh that wretched "mob mentality" - as if it's somehow wrong to be a member of the majority.

No one is saying "suck it up, non Christians." All I am saying is to EVERYONE - "Show mutual respect and tolerance."

If you are going to demand tolerance and respect, you have to dish it out yourself.

 

[waitasec]

Oh that wretched "mob mentality" - as if it's somehow wrong to be a member of the majority.

No one is saying "suck it up, non Christians." All I am saying is to EVERYONE - "Show mutual respect and tolerance."

If you are going to demand tolerance and respect, you have to dish it out yourself.

so if i were to walk into your church with a t-shirt that says, 'god is not real'
it would be tolerated?

 

[SageTree]

I don't see anything wrong with that. That, to me, is not proselytizing, and Holy Books of any faith can have quotes and verses that may be appropriate for the situation.

Maybe I'm really off and sometimes these long posts are hard to catch up on, but was is the general or personal sense of what proselytizing in the thread and in your head ?

Thanks for your kind words as well. Sometimes I wonder if I'm referencing 'helpful' words from a way of thinking spiritually, that some may find groundless.

 

[Draka]

Most of the different demoninations agree on about 90-95% of the doctrine. Even Catholics and most Protestants agree on about 80 to 85%. There's certain "core beliefs" that one cannot stray from and still retain what it is to be Christian. It's about the more minor stuff that you see vast majority of the disagreements. It's also strange to reject something when you don't even know what you're rejecting.

I know exactly what I'm rejecting thank you. Do you reject Wicca? How about Druidism? Animism? Do you know what it is you're rejecting?

 

[Draka]

well, it failed miserably, because the christian religious tradition seems to be
infused with our culture (in the US)
thereby, mob mentality is the norm.

You're right about it being infused. We have Christmas as a federally recognized holiday. We have Christmas carols in our public schools. I haven't seen Imbolc or Beltane as a federally recognized holiday where one gets a paid day off to honor the day. I don't see a whole lot of dancing during Navaratri in the schools. The little rule in the Constitution about not recognizing/favoring any one particular religion goes out the window when one religion is obviously recognized by recognizing certain holy days on a federal level and not other religions'. Government offices are not open on Christmas, but they are open on Yule, Bohdi Day, Yom Kippur and so on. If the government is not going to recognize holy days of other religions then it shouldn't recognize those of Christianity, no matter if there is a majority or not. Equal is equal, regardless of numbers.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I fear atheism does the same thing. Ultimately, we are all just in search of the truth. There is a difference between a personal truth and a universal truth, and it's why you won't see anecdotes being brought up in debates.

Rather, most of the time they do it to make fundamentals not destroy our world like the dark ages.

 

[Mister Emu]

IMO, the correctness or incorrectness of a religion isn't such an obvious, straightforward, factual matter as looking to see whether the Earth is flat or round.

Ask a flat-earther how obvious and straightforward the matter of earth's sphericity is, my guess is that their answer will not be the same as yours.

Could you demonstrate that your religion is correct as easily as I can demonstrate that the Earth is round?

No, I am not the one who demonstrates the truth of my religion. That has no bearing on whether or not it is factual though.

Since I don't think that religious choice is based on factual determinations, I think it's more a matter of personal, aesthetic preference...

Your thoughts are wrong, and that is a matter of fact.

Rather, most of the time they do it to make fundamentals not destroy our world like the dark ages.

Religion is a large part of why any civilization was left in western Europe at all in the "dark ages".

 

[ChristineES]

Maybe I'm really off and sometimes these long posts are hard to catch up on, but was is the general or personal sense of what proselytizing in the thread and in your head ?

Thanks for your kind words as well. Sometimes I wonder if I'm referencing 'helpful' words from a way of thinking spiritually, that some may find groundless.

To me, proselytizing isn't telling people of your faith or quoting scriptures of your faith, it is more that "You have follow my faith or you're wrong (or going to hell)" mentality. I have seen so many people do this, even to fellow people of their own faith! I have had Christians tell me I am not a true Christian for various reasons (Other faiths, like yours, don't do that very often or not at all).

You're welcome. I have found that most faiths have more in common that they have different.

 

[Wombat]

well, it failed miserably, because the christian religious tradition seems to be
infused with our culture (in the US).

Yea...hang on...wait a sec waitasec....just because "the christian religious tradition >is< infused" with your culture does not mean that "religious tradition becomes part of the formal mechanisms of State."

You do not live in a Theocracy, partial Theocracy or anything like it.

Your Constitution has not "failed miserably" in this regard.

mob mentality is the norm.

Ah...well...see...there ya go sunshine!...that aint a problem with your Constitution...that's just a direct result of being American!

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I know exactly what I'm rejecting thank you. Do you reject Wicca? How about Druidism? Animism? Do you know what it is you're rejecting?

How am I supposed to know about all these different religions if someone isn't out there evangelizing? I've got the gist about most of the "big" religions but it would take a lifetime to learn about all these smaller sects. There must be a million pagan religions out there and I'm guessing most of them are far more different from each other than a Lutheran and a Methodist. Christian evangelism stems from the thankfulness of what a person has encountered and a natural desire for others to know the same love they've encountered. Is the pagan experience with whatever power they're encountering different?

 

[Wombat]

How am I supposed to know about all these different religions? .

Matthew 7:16 "By their fruit you will recognize them":danana:

 

[Poisonshady313]

Oh that wretched "mob mentality" - as if it's somehow wrong to be a member of the majority.

No one is saying "suck it up, non Christians." All I am saying is to EVERYONE - "Show mutual respect and tolerance."

If you are going to demand tolerance and respect, you have to dish it out yourself.

But on some level, you're asking for tolerance for something that is intolerable. There is something called reasonable accommodation...

Example.

If I have you over my house for lunch, the food you eat is going to be kosher. No bacon, no ham, and if it's a meat dish, it won't be mixed with cheese. i.e. no cheeseburgers or pepperoni pizza.

A person who typically eats their pizza with pepperoni or their burgers with cheese, there's nothing that compels them to do so. It's a preference, and for the sake of respecting the host, you could go a meal doing without. You wouldn't demand that your burger contain cheese.

Now... when I go over to your house, you knowing full well what my dietary restrictions are, shouldn't expect me to start eating cheeseburgers or pepperoni pizza. It's not a matter of me disrespecting you. It's a matter of understanding that the dietary laws I hold to because they're an obligation of my faith are not optional, and it would be unreasonable/intolerable for you to expect me to abandon the tenets of my faith. More, it would be unreasonable for you to conclude that my tendency to adhere to the tenets of my faith are in any way disrespectful to you.


This applies similarly to the concept of prayer in public. (Be aware that I don't mean simply praying in public places, but delivering an invocation on behalf of a gathered assembly comprised of adherents to a multitude of faiths... i.e. graduation, school assemblies, government functions, sports events, etc...)

If a chaplain of some sort delivers an invocation using words like "God" "Lord" "Father in Heaven" etc... that's something I can say Amen to. It's something you could say Amen to. It's something a Muslim could say Amen to. It's something a Hindu could say Amen to. Etc...

If a chaplain feels it necessary to deliver an invocation to Jesus or in his name... it's kind of like insisting on serving me a cheeseburger, when he could just as easily grill a burger without cheese and it wouldn't damage his freedom one little bit. And you can't imagine how incredibly rude it would be to suggest that I simply not eat or go away altogether.

 

[Vinayaka]

How am I supposed to know about all these different religions if someone isn't out there evangelizing?

Why would you even want to know? Isn't Christianity satisfying you? if you do want to find out, there is a lot of information on line.

I don't want to know, because my faith offers me everything I need. But some groups really don't want to get bigger. Sometimes evangelising brings out a bunch of nutcases that cause even more problems. If someone is really interested, they can go seek it out.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Why would you even want to know? Isn't Christianity satisfying you? if you do want to find out, there is a lot of information on line.

I don't want to know, because my faith offers me everything I need. But some groups really don't want to get bigger. Sometimes evangelising brings out a bunch of nutcases that cause even more problems. If someone is really interested, they can go seek it out.

I find the study of comparative religion fascinating . I also like to know more about other faiths so that I can refute them. I admit that I believe with all my heart that forgiveness for our sins is available. If you love the world it's only natural that you'd want the rest of your fellow man to not face the wrath of God on judgment day.

 

[Draka]

staff edit

Firstly, I am the only one accountable for my deeds, good or bad or half-warmed and a day old. Why would I have a problems with that? Secondly, what I have issue with is not about being exposed to different lines of thoughts and ideas at all. I welcome that. What I find rude is for someone to tell me what I should believe because they happen to believe it. What I find to be rude is the assumption from people like this that I don't have good reason for believing what I do and not believing what they do. It's about rudeness and over-stepping. It's about conclusions and assumptions. If people want to discuss their beliefs with me while being receptive and non-judgmental about hearing mine then fine, we can share ideas back and forth all day long. That's how we learn about each other and different views in the world. However, if someone is only interested in telling me how wrong I am and how right they are and how I NEED to believe what they believe or else...I have no time or patience for that rudeness.