Do you really think you are helping anyone?

[lunamoth]

Interesting that there has been much discussion lately about how it should be OK to publicly criticize religion, yet somehow if one wants to openly demonstrate religion in a positive manner it is suddenly infringing on others' rights. Just sayin.

 

[Vansdad]

There are ways of "spreading the word" that aren't offensive but still informative.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Interesting that there has been much discussion lately about how it should be OK to publicly criticize religion, yet somehow if one wants to openly demonstrate religion in a positive manner it is suddenly infringing on others' rights.

But we're talking about two different things, and two different levels of activity. An atheist billboard, for instance, is a different beast from a religious invocation at a public event. One says "here is my opinion that I would like to express to you", while the other says "here is the opinion that I expect all of us to share". One has an implicit message of inclusion, and therefore excludes people who don't agree with it. The other doesn't have this.

If someone wanted to start sporting events with a sing-along of "I'm so Happy We're all Atheists" instead of a prayer, I'd be opposed to that, too.

Also, while my preference would be for less in the way of public displays of religion, I also feel that as long as they exist, I should be able to respond in kind.

 

[lunamoth]

But we're talking about two different things, and two different levels of activity. An atheist billboard, for instance, is a different beast from a religious invocation at a public event. One says "here is my opinion that I would like to express to you", while the other says "here is the opinion that I expect all of us to share". One has an implicit message of inclusion, and therefore excludes people who don't agree with it. The other doesn't have this.

If someone wanted to start sporting events with a sing-along of "I'm so Happy We're all Atheists" instead of a prayer, I'd be opposed to that, too.

Also, while my preference would be for less in the way of public displays of religion, I also feel that as long as they exist, I should be able to respond in kind.

Your post #417 does not seem to be in agreement with the above.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your post #417 does not seem to be in agreement with the above.

How so?

 

[SageTree]

I've have on the occasion shared of word from the Dharma or insight inspired by with a Friend in need and they have come back after the fact and told me what I offered to them was truly a gift to them in time of need.

This has lead to many constructive conversations about meditation and sometimes the talk wanders through to a specific religions.

I'm not sure if this 'fits the bill' or not, but since I AM reference important scriptures that have helped enable my spiritual journey and connectedness, I feel it works.

:namaste
SageTree

 

[ChristineES]

I've have on the occasion shared of word from the Dharma or insight inspired by with a Friend in need and they have come back after the fact and told me what I offered to them was truly a gift to them in time of need.

This has lead to many constructive conversations about meditation and sometimes the talk wanders through to a specific religions.

I'm not sure if this 'fits the bill' or not, but since I AM reference important scriptures that have helped enable my spiritual journey and connectedness, I feel it works.

:namaste
SageTree

I don't see anything wrong with that. That, to me, is not proselytizing, and Holy Books of any faith can have quotes and verses that may be appropriate for the situation.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Honestly, I don't get this "I'm so offended by a prayer" thing. I know it's an overused statement but it does bear repeating at this point - you're guaranteed freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.

Consider this. My religion tells me that I'm not supposed to be engaged in, or even really in the presence of, the symbols or practices of other religions. For practical purposes, that might involve averting my eyes when passing by a church, not going to churches... or in situations that call for me to be in a church (i.e. a Christian friend's wedding or funeral) averting my eyes from images of crosses or Jesus, not bowing my head or kneeling, and not responding Amen.

So yeah, believe it or not, my freedom to exercise my religion means being free from having to deal with YOUR religion... and you imposing your religious presence on me without my consent is in fact interfering with my free exercise thereof.

When I attend a baseball game, I do not do so for the purpose of going to Church. When YOU go to a baseball game, you do not do so for the purpose of going to Church.

Team wants to say a prayer in the clubhouse or in the dugout? Fine. Batter wants to cross himself when he steps up to the plate? Fine. Spectator wants to pray from his seat? Fine.

Anyone wants to grab the microphone and lead the stadium in a prayer to Jesus right before the singing of the national anthem? NOT FINE.

Same goes for graduation ceremonies.

If I'm in a graduating class... or I'm attending the graduation of a friend, or a family member... I'm not there to go to church. It's entirely inappropriate to use that moment to ask those assembled to join you in prayer, or for a student to go on and on about Jesus.

If we're talking about a private Christian institution, then it's a different story. I would either have to bite the bullet, knowing what building I'm walking into and could possibly expect while there... or simply not go.

But a public school is open to people of various faiths, and I should not be subject to your religious practices when there's no expectation that this is any sort of religious ceremony.

Are you offended when you get Christmas Day off as a paid holiday?

I am. Especially considering my Holy days are not treated the same. Do employees get Yom Kippur off as a paid holiday for? No, they do not.

Trying to include everyone's holy days is a bit impractical, so the right answer is to include nobody's holy days.

Are you offended by Christmas carols in public places?

Not as long as I can easily avoid them.

Want to sing Christmas carols in the DMV parking lot DURING BUSINESS HOURS, fine.
Want to sing Christmas carols in the DMV waiting room, or in the parking lot when there's a line of people waiting to get in and shouldn't have to just come back later because of your inconsideration? NOT fine.

A few years ago I worked with a Muslim girl. In fact, she worked with me when 9/11 went down. Now, our office had 8 employees at the time and we were all actively religious, including her (the rest were Christians). When she observed Ramadan, we all were right there with her - in fact, those of us who brought our lunch to work quit doing so because we didn't want to eat in front of her or fill the break room up with the scents of food or cooking. Some people even brought special foods or desserts for her to take to her family for their evening meal. Likewise, she brought Christmas desserts and candy for us and for our customers during the Christmas season. When we went caroling to some of our customers' locations, she went right along with us voluntarily, singing Christmas carols. I remember fondly many discussions about religion between her and the rest of the staff, because she and her family were very active religiously and it was very interesting to us. We loved her and would have defended her strongly against anyone who exhibited any prejudice toward her after 9/11.

So, if you can refrain from eating on Ramadan (which is nice, considering she probably wouldn't have asked you or expected you to do so) to respect the concept of religious diversity, even when it meant catering to a minority, why can you not refrain from insisting on a sectarian invocation in a setting that doesn't call for it for exactly the same reason?

Later, our staff included a non religious person. In spite of her agnostic beliefs, she was always gracious during our prayers or discussions about religion. We did not suspend our prayer before group meals when she joined our staff, and she never seemed offended during those prayers either.

I hope you can understand the difference between agnostics who are indifferent towards religion or perhaps in some cases even think it's wonderful though they can't bring themselves to believe... and offering a sectarian prayer on behalf of those who consider it a sin to engage in such a thing.

Remember when that Hindu chaplain offered a prayer before Congress? I listened to what he said. It was all very positive and inclusive in a most non-sectarian way, not referring to any Hindu deities by name, but instead using more generic language like "Creator" "Supreme God" "Lord", etc... Yet there were all kinds of Christians, and not just those present who were actively protesting... but others who went on to write about it on the internet, gnashing their teeth and rending their garments because of the idolatry and such.

What an awfully unfair reaction when the guy offered a most nonsectarian invocation that anybody could respond "Amen" to... but more importantly, what an awfully hypocritical reaction when these are the same people that insist on praying "in Jesus name" when it is entirely inappropriate to do so.

That's the way it should be in my opinion. Like my earlier example of life in Japan - when I was the religious minority, it honestly never occurred to me to be offended by the expression of Shinto beliefs. It never OCCURRED to me because I respected the rights of the Japanese people and culture.

They also have religious freedom there. "Freedom of religion is guaranteed to all. No religious organization shall receive any privileges from the State, nor exercise any political authority".

Can you give an example where you figured you were unfairly expected to participate in the observance of Shinto prayer or rituals?

 

[Poisonshady313]

I tried to opt out of the annual Christmas concert, and was successful for several years. Finally I just gave in to the subtle pressure, and went along, albeit not with a lot of conviction.

My family always went to public schools, and we are all musically inclined, so we would all participate in the school's chorus... performing in concerts and such...

and at least by the time I went to school, they started to work in at least one song for Chanukah (even if it had absolutely nothing to do with Chanukah... but they get credit for trying.) And there would be all kinds of wintery/Christmas-y songs, including but not limited to songs like "Let it Snow" "I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas" "Jingle Bells" "Little Ole Saint Nick", "Silver Bells".

One year they worked in the song O Come All Ye Faithful, a song whose final words are "Christ the Lord".

My brother had a problem with this. The teacher at the time suggested he substitute the words "rice on the floor". Figuring it would sound the same and solve the problem of my brother having to sing words he objected to singing. Still not cool because it would give the impression that he's still singing those words, which is something he was not inclined to do.

Solution: He performed at the concert, singing every song, except that one, when he very discretely and very respectfully walked off stage before the song began.


By the time I joined the high school chorus (ten years later), there was one song I objected to, but because it meant a lot to the teacher and because there were simply so few guys, not many of whom were musically inclined, I agreed to hum (or repeat the word "la"... I forget which). And when he tried to introduce another song that struck me as too religious, I had a word with him, and the song was omitted entirely.

I don't have a problem singing Christmas-y songs. I do have a problem singing songs suggesting that Jesus was God or the son of God or that his blood was shed to forgive the sins of mankind. I won't do it in any language (the song I hummed to was in Latin).

I had no problem saying so, and nobody got bent out of shape about anything.

 

[Vinayaka]

Poison Shady: One of the problems these days is teacher's time. The days of the old concert where each class performs is over. Now scripts are sold, and its a large play. The problem is that many of these scripts are written by and for Christians. I personally think its another of the sneaky things they do in the schools, and they get away with it, because unlike in your case, its rare that someone stands up to it. But in the last few years I endured it, there were more and more kids just not showing up on the big night. That way they only had to deal with the criticism once, not for 3 weeks. Sometimes they even lied that they had been too ill to come.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Poison Shady: One of the problems these days is teacher's time. The days of the old concert where each class performs is over. Now scripts are sold, and its a large play. The problem is that many of these scripts are written by and for Christians. I personally think its another of the sneaky things they do in the schools, and they get away with it, because unlike in your case, its rare that someone stands up to it. But in the last few years I endured it, there were more and more kids just not showing up on the big night. That way they only had to deal with the criticism once, not for 3 weeks. Sometimes they even lied that they had been too ill to come.

I'm not aware of my school ever having done any Christmas plays.

The theater department had two shows a year. The fall show (which usually went on in the winter) which was always a drama, and the spring show which was always a musical.

The Christmas/Winter concert was, at least in High School (to prevent this from being a much longer post), the chorus, the band, the orchestra... and at some point, the jazz band. All of which were comprised of students from all 4 years mixed together.

All we had to deal with was song selection... and these were songs that we basically worked on for the half of the year leading up to the concert, then we dumped those songs and started to prep for the Spring concert.

 

[Vinayaka]

Well, you're in New York, and I'm in Alberta, Canada, the bible belt of Canada. I taught in a K-9 school, but the concert was just for K-6. Get 'em while they're young.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Well, you're in New York, and I'm in Alberta, Canada, the bible belt of Canada. I taught in a K-9 school, but the concert was just for K-6. Get 'em while they're young.

Speaking of that...

My elementary school has (or at least had) a tendency to have students decorate the really big Christmas tree in the school's lobby.

Usually a class will get an opportunity to take a "field trip" to the lobby to do some decorating, then another class will get a turn to do some decorating. Unless I'm wrong and they picked a handful of kids from each class to do some decorating.

Anyway...

The year my oldest sister was in Kindergarten, she was one of a handful of students picked to spend time decorating the tree. Normally, one would write this off as "eh, it's kids making things pretty".

Except... at some point, it was made known that at that time, the Jewish kids were very specifically selected for this task, because "They were given an opportunity to take part in something they were being deprived of at home."

How awful. How arrogant. How disgusting.

The school's administration got an earful from my mother about that, and you better believe they never tried to pull crap like that ever again.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

The message of Jesus is an offensive one in that it claims there's only one way to be right with God and that all the other ways people try to be right with God are wrong. If Christians are actually correct in that belief then yes, there is no better way they can help anyone then by telling them this message.

 

[Kathryn]

No, they go toward supporting every church. That's not church-state separation either. You don't have a state sponsored church; you have many state sponsored churches.

US tax dollars do not support any state or federally sponsored religious programs.

Because the comment I replied to - i.e. that people in Japan who don't like the fact that they have a state religion should just suck it up and deal, effectively - doesn't match what you're saying now.

Frankly, I'm not overly concerned about Japan's laws, or the religious practices of the Japanese. I'm an American, discussing the practice of religion (or the lack thereof) in the US. Simultaneously, I have my own philosophical ideas about freedom and respect for others - which all meshes together to form my own personal opinion.

So I am being perfectly consistent. When I lived in Japan, I was the religious minority. It honestly never occurred to me to be offended by state sponsored religious activities. From a personal standpoint, I figure it's respectful to let others freely practice their religion - whether I'm a member of the religious majority OR minority. No one was forcing me to worship in any way. The polite thing to do is be gracious and generous.

I realize of course that those qualities are in pretty short supply.

I think it's inherently hypocritical to cite freedom of expression as the reason why one group of people should shut up and stop acting offended. Do you see the contradiction here?

No. See above statement. People tend to be too easily offended these days, I guess.

I'm just trying to get a sense of what you're arguing for. You're throwing around catch-phrases that can be taken a few different ways.

Nope. I'm being consistent. I just refuse to be pidgeon holed as some sort of rabid, closed minded religious bigot insensitive to the feelings of others. Respect goes both ways.

My main concern in all this is for elected representatives to realize that they represent all of the electorate, not just the people who share their religion.

Personally I dont' care what a politician's religious views are. I don't EVER vote for a candidate based on his or her religious affiliation. I really don't think that most politicians believe that they only represent Catholics, or Mormons, or Episcopalians, or agnostics, or any other sub group. Seems a stretch to me.

Really? Well, then your town is one up on this suburb of Houston, where the prospect of a mosque prompted many nuisance complaints to try to stop or delay construction, a web site where home addresses were posted for members of the Muslim association building the mosque, and promises of pig races next door every Friday "just to offend the Muslims":

Yes, apparently my mid size East Texas town is superior to Katy, Texas. As a matter of fact, I can assure you it is. Katy, Texas is a wasteland of suburban sprawl, foreclosures, illegal immigration, an influx of poverty stricken displaced persons from the beleaguered Gulf Coast - it's a terrible mess. I was there just a few weeks ago visiting my brother who lives there (hating every minute of it, but he can't sell his house because of depreciated home prices and a formerly upscale neighborhood now falling into disrepair), and it's a pretty despicable place.

 

[Draka]

The message of Jesus is an offensive one in that it claims there's only one way to be right with God and that all the other ways people try to be right with God are wrong. If Christians are actually correct in that belief then yes, there is no better way they can help anyone then by telling them this message.

As if the vast majority of us haven't heard it from the time we were very young. As if we haven't been exposed to it before over and over and over and over and over.......and so forth and so on and etc etc etc. Believe me, chances are, if you've made it to adulthood, you've heard of Christianity and it's message. To expound on it more to a person who still does not believe is more than likely whooping the crap out of a dead and decaying horse. At this point the only way a person is "helping" the "non-believer" is reinforcing reasons not to believe in Christianity.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

As if the vast majority of us haven't heard it from the time we were very young. As if we haven't been exposed to it before over and over and over and over and over.......and so forth and so on and etc etc etc. Believe me, chances are, if you've made it to adulthood, you've heard of Christianity and it's message. To expound on it more to a person who still does not believe is more than likely whooping the crap out of a dead and decaying horse. At this point the only way a person is "helping" the "non-believer" is reinforcing reasons not to believe in Christianity.

The problem is that tons of people, even many who've spent time a church at one point, have no idea what Jesus is really saying. They believe he's some self-seeker who's out to ruin everyone's good time. If you can actually tell me the gist of what Jesus said I'll be very impressed.

 

[Draka]

The problem is that tons of people, even many who've spent time a church at one point, have no idea what Jesus is really saying. They believe he's some self-seeker who's out to ruin everyone's good time. If you can actually tell me the gist of what Jesus said I'll be very impressed.

No, the problem is, that everyone seems to think that they have the only "real" truth about the figure known as Christ. Hence all the different denominations of Christianity. You all can't even agree with each other, so no matter what a non-Christian says they will inevitably be disagreed with. You might be very impressed with what I know of Christianity, you may not. I really don't care to compare. I know far more than enough to know I don't believe it and would really appreciate it if others would leave it at that. Thus I don't like proselytizing.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

No, the problem is, that everyone seems to think that they have the only "real" truth about the figure known as Christ. Hence all the different denominations of Christianity. You all can't even agree with each other, so no matter what a non-Christian says they will inevitably be disagreed with. You might be very impressed with what I know of Christianity, you may not. I really don't care to compare. I know far more than enough to know I don't believe it and would really appreciate it if others would leave it at that. Thus I don't like proselytizing.

Most of the different demoninations agree on about 90-95% of the doctrine. Even Catholics and most Protestants agree on about 80 to 85%. There's certain "core beliefs" that one cannot stray from and still retain what it is to be Christian. It's about the more minor stuff that you see vast majority of the disagreements. It's also strange to reject something when you don't even know what you're rejecting.

 

[Wombat]

As if the vast majority of us haven't heard it from the time we were very young. As if we haven't been exposed to it before over and over and over and over and over.......and so forth and so on and etc etc etc. Believe me, chances are, if you've made it to adulthood, you've heard of Christianity and it's message. To expound on it more to a person who still does not believe is more than likely whooping the crap out of a dead and decaying horse. At this point the only way a person is "helping" the "non-believer" is reinforcing reasons not to believe in Christianity.

Yes...most of us raised in the West are raised soaking in Christology...it is all pervasive and inescapable. If you wanted to raise your children without having them
culturally indoctrinated into the Christian story/cosmology you would have to do so in a secluded commune devoid of media.
As a human being, with a global human history and cultural inheritance, I find it appalling that even the basics of the history of Islam, Judaism, Buddhism did not reach me until I reached out for them in my mid 20s. And I believe I had a moderately good prior education.
Now....I don’t seek to offend anyone....but >exactly< the same dynamic and comparison can be made between Christology and Americana...and exactly the same complaints made regarding all pervasive media/cultural domination. I’m an Australian, born and bred, raised on Vegimite, Mickey Mouse Club, Rin Tin Tin, F Troop, Here’s Lucy....need I go on?
By fourteen I could name more American Presidents than Australian Prime Ministers.
My point/complaint is that cultural dominance by any single group or narrative is fundamentally unhealthy...and when dominant narratives combine in the form of the American Evangelical Christian Tele Evangelist...all cashed up and with global reach...you have a recipe for deep seated foreign resentment:slap:...even from those who consider themselves close enough to be family.