Do You Support Forgiving $10,000 Of Student Loan Debt?

[Clizby Wampuscat]

That is false. They are buying second hand, meaning the publisher has still recieved payment for an obscenely overpriced book.
Having such options doesn't make something less expensive.
Did You Know? College Textbook Prices Have Increased 88% Since 2006 — The James G. Martin Center for Academic Renewal

It makes it less expensive for the people buying them.

This may be the first step towards canceling all college debt and making college tuition free.

College education cost someone something. To say it is free is not being upfront with that reality.

Germany themselves took a smaller steps, with making college more affordable and then decided that was still not affordable enough and making theirs tuition free.

How did they pay for it?

And, lets be honest, no one should have to go into debt or live with a crippling debt to serve the public in needed and necessary ways. It shouldn't happen. But, as happens, in America the taxpayers and tradesmen benefit greatly from such people assuming such a massive debt.

They assume it voluntarily to better themselves. What is the cost for everyone to get a "free' college education?

As my family has been in healthcare for awhile now, to be honest I read such things as "how dare you get pardoned that debt that gave you the knowledge and training to be part of the team who saved my life after my crap diet induced heart attack." And this hypothetical person has probably never worked on call a day in his life.

So all college degrees are equal? They are not. If someone wants to be a doctor then they can figure out how to afford that. I wanted to be an engineer so I figured out how to afford the degree. It is a simple as that.

Can you answer some basic questions about what you are advocating:
1. How much will it cost to guarantee a free education to everyone that wants it?
2. How will this be funded?
3. Will this include trade schools?
4. How long can a person go to college for free? How many degrees can they get?
5. Is this just free tuition or is room and board included? How about books?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

You cannot declare bankruptcy on a college loan, and the government helps to sucker students into going to college with these govt. backed loans, gets them into debt that they can't pay. Students are under pressure (by their own government) to go to college, but there is no way for them to declare bankruptcy when the college degrees don't work out. That is what is special about a college loan.

Are they adults or not? People make financial mistakes by buying homes they cannot afford. Should they get debt relief as well?

Here is how they are under pressure: Somewhere along the way "High school" turned into a menial academy. Public (required by the government) schools have stopped preparing students to go to work and have focused on getting them ready for college. They have pressured the students to go to college first of all by turning high school into a rubber school that is mostly useless and secondly by telling students that they have no excuse not to go to college. They don't teach you law or advanced degrees in so-called high school. You get out with about the same knowledge you had in sixth grade.

This is an untrue statement. You really believe a 6th grader has as much knowledge as a high school graduate?

High schools don't prepare you to work. They don't (but could) teach you: law, logic, higher mathematics, advanced degrees, real technical education. Why don't they? Because the government has decided that you belong in college! Useless. When you get out of high school you are prepared to work a menial job -- just like before you went to high school. Congratulations!

This is untrue as well. Most high schools I know have a vocational training center and teach higher level math such as calculous and linear algebra, logic, technical education. They have AP classes and dual credit classes that you can take college level courses in high school and get college credit for them.

And that is why college loans are special.

Much of what you stated is demonstrably false.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

What about mere utility? You know that in this country, we are constructing these massive suburb farms over what were actual farms.

Ok, let's say that food prices are going up, due to international conflict. Food prices go up in the grocery store. A tradesmen gets a job, and builds 50 houses over farmland. So now if he makes money, and does not struggle to buy food, does he get the right to blame other americans if they complain about a big grocery bill?

So you don't know how much free college education will cost then? Because that was my question.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

All I know, is that at some point fairly soon, you might be taking water from my great lakes state, which is part of the soon-to-be water empire. As long as we are splitting so many hairs, we might as well start debating how it this ought to play out. You chose to live in texas. I heard it was hot and dry there, generally. Make your case as to why people out west should get any of my water. I like to go to the carwash, and take showers without restrictions. If I have to share, should I get a check, sort of similar to what the alaskans get for living on oil wealth? Who should pay me

I never said you owed me any water.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Either you're missing my point and/or you are just skirting around it. We're dealing with education, so if you want to play whataboutism, be my guest, but I don't have such an interest in doing that.

Ok

 

[Brickjectivity]

Are they adults or not? People make financial mistakes by buying homes they cannot afford. Should they get debt relief as well?

If the government kind of forces you into buying a home before you really are experienced with money and won't let you declare bankruptcy then yes it is worth consideration; but actually if you have a mortgage you can declare bankruptcy and drop the mortgage and give up the house. It is a little different since you can get out of the financial arrangement.

This is an untrue statement. You really believe a 6th grader has as much knowledge as a high school graduate?

It depends upon which state you live in. In my home state of Virginia I was on the college track. I had twelve years of English. Why would any American student benefit from twelve years of English? In the sixth grade I did my first research paper. In grade 12 I tell you the requirements were no greater than in the sixth. The only difference was in Maths, a little more History, some optional courses such a Music Theory, Computer Science. Basically it was six extra years that could have been so much more beneficial. I got out of High School feeling naked and unprepared in the early 1990s, and I was in the top 10%. Its a true statement.

This is untrue as well. Most high schools I know have a vocational training center and teach higher level math such as calculous and linear algebra, logic, technical education. They have AP classes and dual credit classes that you can take college level courses in high school and get college credit for them.

What state are you talking about? I bet most high schools in the 1990s didn't have a vocational technical center. Our high school had 1 shop class offered, and I took it. It was almost nothing except an introductory course to woodworking. Again, not a high education, not a demanding education. It was an education which prepared us to be employees only unless we went to college. My arithmetic skills were crap, but I considered myself to be a decent Math student. I took precalc. I only found out later that my arithmetic should have been much more rigorous. In general I got A's and B's, yet my knowledge and skills were worthless. A true statement: We were suckers prepared for and sent to college to spend money, not taught enough to get by or do for ourselves; and they called it public high school.

Much of what you stated is demonstrably false.

You have no idea apparently and presume much about high schools. Why exactly do you think the colleges are so flush with students who can't pay back their loans? I'm providing a satisfactory explanation right here. Its because many high schools are mere crap, and they are SO bad that the college freshmen courses are geared towards making up for what the high schools fail to teach. Go ahead and check with state universities. They have lots of 'Refresher' courses for high school graduates, and lots of high school graduates need them: plenty of evidence that High School is merely for the preparation of customers for colleges, that the government has failed to provide decent or relevant high schools and has thus created a stupid market and suckered people into going into debt to complete an education which ought to have been completed in the 12 years of school that is already payed for by state taxes.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

If the government kind of forces you into buying a home before you really are experienced with money and won't let you declare bankruptcy then yes it is worth consideration; but actually if you have a mortgage you can declare bankruptcy and drop the mortgage and give up the house. It is a little different since you can get out of the financial arrangement.

No one is forcing anyone to take out a student loan.

It depends upon which state you live in. In my home state of Virginia I was on the college track. I had twelve years of English. Why would any American student benefit from twelve years of English? In the sixth grade I did my first research paper. In grade 12 I tell you the requirements were no greater than in the sixth. The only difference was in Maths, a little more History, some optional courses such a Music Theory, Computer Science. Basically it was six extra years that could have been so much more beneficial. I got out of High School feeling naked and unprepared in the early 1990s, and I was in the top 10%. Its a true statement.

This is your experience from the 1990's. Do you think high schools could have changed since then?

What state are you talking about? I bet most high schools in the 1990s didn't have a vocational technical center. Our high school had 1 shop class offered, and I took it. It was almost nothing except an introductory course to woodworking. Again, not a high education, not a demanding education. It was an education which prepared us to be employees only unless we went to college. My arithmetic skills were crap, but I considered myself to be a decent Math student. I took precalc. I only found out later that my arithmetic should have been much more rigorous. In general I got A's and B's, yet my knowledge and skills were worthless. A true statement: We were suckers prepared for and sent to college to spend money, not taught enough to get by or do for ourselves; and they called it public high school.

I was talking about today's schools not 1990's schools.

You have no idea apparently and presume much about high schools.

I had daughter's graduate from a public high school in 2020 and in 2022. Their experience was much different than what you describe.

Why exactly do you think the colleges are so flush with students who can't pay back their loans? I'm providing a satisfactory explanation right here. Its because many high schools are mere crap, and they are SO bad that the college freshmen courses are geared towards making up for what the high schools fail to teach. Go ahead and check with state universities. They have lots of 'Refresher' courses for high school graduates, and lots of high school graduates need them: plenty of evidence that High School is merely for the preparation of customers for colleges, that the government has failed to provide decent or relevant high schools and has thus created a stupid market and suckered people into going into debt to complete an education which ought to have been completed in the 12 years of school that is already payed for by state taxes.

The fact is you get out of high school what you put into it. Both of my daughters were prepared for college because they worked hard in high school and took advanced classes than transferred into college credits. I know not all schools are the same. But many have opportunities better than when I graduated high school if they are willing to work. My experience with kids in public education for the last 15 years is the kids that do not do well have family issues and are not supported at home. This is the biggest reason for children not getting a good public education in my opinion.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I never said you owed me any water.

If people out west eventually need water, as might be predicted in the future due to climate change signs (right now major rivers are drying up), then the resource likely will be distributed from here, in a costly process. Now if this ends up costing us mid-westerners more, in taxes or water habits, then that means that people out west are incurring costs on those who live near water, just by living where water is scarce. Do you agree?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

So you don't know how much free college education will cost then? Because that was my question.

What you need to understand, is that you're asking an abstract question. Which is why I went to the heart of the matter, with my questions. And that is to talk about the abstract and subjective goals of the empire, and debate how they make sense

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They assume it voluntarily to better themselves.

Healthcare workers, teachers, civil engineers, those people benefit us all with their career path and choice to assume a bad deal of a debt.

It makes it less expensive for the people buying them.

But it doesn't make the cost of textbooks cheaper. Factually the cost of them has precipitously increased.

College education cost someone something. To say it is free is not being upfront with that reality.

Did I say free? No, I said tuition free, and that does include other related expenses.

So all college degrees are equal? They are not. If someone wants to be a doctor then they can figure out how to afford that.

It's more that people want to focus on some degree they're probably making up and ignoring the degrees that benefit all in society. Because if you ignore those it makes it easier to make this look like a bad idea.

 

[Watchmen]

I actually think that both the degree you are talking about, and the trade someone does, is often the product of subjective cultural activity. I think that the problem of utility production was largely solved a long time ago. For example, I am a factory worker, perhaps I am one of the 'tradesmen' you like talking about (so maybe you can cite me instead of some millionaire celebrity, I am covered in grease and oil all the time).

I know full well that basically, I make products that are metaphorical christmas tree decorations. It's just cultural minutiae, that someone will dig up a couple thousand years later; mere objects of future archaelogical wonder. As well, a degree someone might get about roman history or something, is comparable. It's just 'cultural enrichment.'

But that person with a degree about 'thinking about things' probably can help us do something different, perhaps better in the future, as a collective, if we let them. There have to be better ways to set up society and infrastructure than this. There have to be better goals. Maybe they can set it up so there is less pain in the country. The country is in all kinds of pain

You also have a situation here where jobs got outsourced across the ocean, as well as medical supply production, I hear. How does that figure into your rap?

We can have a successful, educated society without making tradesmen, factory workers, etc. pay the debts of those who chose to take student loans. I also think your proposition about “thinking about things” is overrated. Many students are incurring tens of thousands of dollars in loans to major in degrees with no practical application. Yet those who chose that path now get to dump a portion of that debt on those who have nothing to do with that person’s decisions. Some of those intentionally chose to go into a trade to avoid student debt, yet they get saddled with it anyway.

 

[Watchmen]

All I know, is that at some point fairly soon, you might be taking water from my great lakes state, which is part of the soon-to-be water empire. As long as we are splitting so many hairs, we might as well start debating how it this ought to play out. You chose to live in texas. I heard it was hot and dry there, generally. Make your case as to why people out west should get any of my water. I like to go to the carwash, and take showers without restrictions. If I have to share, should I get a check, sort of similar to what the alaskans get for living on oil wealth? Who should pay me

But you didn’t sign a contract saying that you and you alone were responsible. Those who took student loans did.

 

[Watchmen]

Covid created much of this problem and for a variety of reasons. It stands to common sense and decency, imo, to try and help our fellow Americans when a serious problem exists that those affected may not be able to adequately solve on their own, and this is what has happened to so many.

Actually, many programs to help those already exist. There are loan deferments, forgiveness for public sector work, income-based repayment plans, and so on. Why do we have to create new programs and burden those who had NOTHING to do with student loans when programs and systems already exist? This new program is also being implemented without fixing the actual underlying problem of the student loan system and skyrocketing education costs. Reeks of a political stunt during an important election year.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

We can have a successful, educated society without making tradesmen, factory workers, etc. pay the debts of those who chose to take student loans. I also think your proposition about “thinking about things” is overrated.

Are you kidding. People are doing like 5 hour podcasts on all the catastrophic risks that modern society is faced with. I think I'd rather go with that, than your comparably tiny paragraph. It's pretty obvious that we are facing walls on multiple fronts here, as a species. Just going at it like an ant is hardly an option, I think whole new ways of living life probably have to be explored.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

If people out west eventually need water, as might be predicted in the future due to climate change signs (right now major rivers are drying up), then the resource likely will be distributed from here, in a costly process. Now if this ends up costing us mid-westerners more, in taxes or water habits, then that means that people out west are incurring costs on those who live near water, just by living where water is scarce. Do you agree?

I pay for my water, if I have to pay more for my water because we get it form another source then that is how it works. This is how it has always worked. Then I need to decide if I want to move or stay where I am at. I would not advocate the government or other people paying for my water. Why would the increased cost be burdened by the people living by the water? The people needing the water should and would pay for the increased costs.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

What you need to understand, is that you're asking an abstract question. Which is why I went to the heart of the matter, with my questions. And that is to talk about the abstract and subjective goals of the empire, and debate how they make sense

It is a very specific question. How much will college for everyone cost? If you have no idea then you need to stop advocating for an idea you have no idea if it is possible. In engineering, if you don't know how much your design will cost then you are not a very good engineer in my opinion. Cost is an integral part of any idea. I don't see how it is abstract.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Why would the increased cost be burdened by the people living by the water? The people needing the water should and would pay for the increased costs.

The infrastructure to get it out there would surely incur taxes, that probably all of us would pay, I imagine.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Healthcare workers, teachers, civil engineers, those people benefit us all with their career path and choice to assume a bad deal of a debt.

You fail to address the issue that they voluntarily assumed the bad debt. People do this all the time. This is why some repossessions and foreclosures happen. They are bettering themselves with the debt. They are getting paid right? My career benefits others, why do I not get anything for that?

But it doesn't make the cost of textbooks cheaper. Factually the cost of them has precipitously increased.

Ok, we are taking about two different things. Textbook prices have gone up, but sending on textbooks has decreased. Look here:
Average College Textbook Cost: How To Cut It Down Without Compromising Studies | Research.com
I agree the textbook costs seem to have gone up disproportionately.

Did I say free? No, I said tuition free, and that does include other related expenses.

Like what?

It's more that people want to focus on some degree they're probably making up and ignoring the degrees that benefit all in society. Because if you ignore those it makes it easier to make this look like a bad idea.

If someone wants to get a degree that does not benefit society that is their choice. But just because something benefits society does not mean we should all pay for it. Why is vocational training never included in this discussion? Mechanics, hair dressers, etc. benefit society.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

It is a very specific question. How much will college for everyone cost? If you have no idea then you need to stop advocating for an idea you have no idea if it is possible. In engineering, if you don't know how much your design will cost then you are not a very good engineer in my opinion. Cost is an integral part of any idea. I don't see how it is abstract.

You've failed to address my question about the electrician making a lot of money by building a huge suburb farm over a real farm, and what his attitude about that should be.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

It is a very specific question. How much will college for everyone cost? If you have no idea then you need to stop advocating for an idea you have no idea if it is possible. In engineering, if you don't know how much your design will cost then you are not a very good engineer in my opinion. Cost is an integral part of any idea. I don't see how it is abstract.

In truth, I think the engineer actually follows the taste of artist anyway. They always did in human culture - engineers just follow a dream of an artist's subjective aesthetic. The artist doesn't always care about cost, that's not his job. Now if you look at a modern suburb farm, the vision includes that everyone grow grass that is uniformly 2 inches short. Were I the supreme leader of the empire, I'd probably mandate that they all cover there lawns in corn and potatoes, and we would farm in-between their bland looking houses. But that's only because we may need to do that, to support our overly massive population