• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Do you think Moses existed as a historical figure?

Do you think Moses existed as a historical figure?

  • No. Entirely fictional.

    Votes: 20 50.0%
  • Yes. Entirely historical.

    Votes: 9 22.5%
  • Maybe. Half historical, half fictional.

    Votes: 11 27.5%

  • Total voters
    40

outhouse

Atheistically
Some have stopped because 5,000 years

Israel did not exist before 1200 BC

Your math is in error, we are talking 3200 years ago. We know this time period, and there was factually no mass exodus out of Egypt at this date.

Factually, no large groups as described lived in Israel at 1200 BC


We actually know more about 5000 years ago in Sumerian cultures because they had good writing and recoded quite a bit.

since archaeology in that area has just scratched the first 10-20%.

Ridiculous.

This is one of the most dug areas on the planet
 

outhouse

Atheistically
An example would be like this here below.


One of the most important discoveries that relate to the time of the Exodus is the Merneptah stele which dates to about 1210 BC.

This implies that Israel did not have a king or kingdom at this time


Now you notice the most important piece of evidence they have, only relates to the time of the supposed exodus.

It also states at 1200 BC they were semi nomadic and had no kingdom

But your biggest problem is the websites credibility, it has none.

It promotes dinosaurs walking with humans, and has a section on UFO's and bigfoot o_O



The Institute for Biblical Research established in 1973 is an academic scholarly organisation with the goals of "fostering the study of Scripture within an evangelical context,
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I never said that every religion or every culture talks about a flood.

The following is the list of those areas that say a global flood happened:
Assyrio-Babylonia
Persia
Syria
Asia Minor
Greece
Lithuania
Russia
China
India
Cree Indians
Cherokee Indians
Papagoa (Mexico)
Aztecs
Peru
Leeward Islands
Fiji Islands
Hawaii

So basically all around the world

This is parallelism in which you are taking the few similarities stories and retrofitting these similarities in order to support your view. If you look at these stories in isolation you will find that besides flooding there are few similarities. In Chinese flood mythology the flood is stopped by a mythological human Yu and is not as global as the Noah version. There is no parallelism between Yu and Noah. Once detailed anaylsis of various stories are done all your really have is "a flood happened". This is normal considering the majority of early civilization were situated near a fresh water source; lakes, streams, rivers, etc



IBSS - Biblical Archaeology - Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt

You should really check your own source's sources as well as it's author. ANET is 5 decades out of date, Albright's ideas have been discredited for decades. It is very heavy on speculation and contradicts traditional accounts. It suggests nothing more than what is already known but takes speculation to the level beyond reason. Speculation which is not without disagreement in the relevant fields which Wilson is not educated in nor a member of.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Israel did not exist before 1200 BC

Your math is in error, we are talking 3200 years ago.
You know what? You are absolutely correct! A simple check on the Biblical time-line, and you have confirmed what the Bible said. ;)

Thank you!


We know this time period, and there was factually no mass exodus out of Egypt at this date.

Factually, no large groups as described lived in Israel at 1200 BC
No. We have no "evidence" yet of a mass exodus. But what we do have is an Israeli culture that was not prevalent and the, all of a sudden, it was. There are two theories, all of a sudden they took over the area or they had an Exodus from Egypt.



Ridiculous.

This is one of the most dug areas on the planet
Hardly. It may be the most dug area, but it is still between 10 & 20% of what could be dug.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
A simple check on the Biblical time-line, and you have confirmed what the Bible said.

Factually wrong.

The bile does not indicate that time period at all. The bible places the exodus much earlier.

But what we do have is an Israeli culture that was not prevalent and the, all of a sudden, it was


Factually wrong again.

We see over a 200 year period the Israelite cultures, slowly growing larger. The exact opposite off what the bible states happened.

History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Modern scholars therefore see Israel arising peacefully and internally from existing people in the highlands of Canaan


Instead modern studies have revealed that the Israelites emerged from a dramatic social transformation of Canaanite nomads of the central hill country of Canaan around 1200 BCE, with no signs of violent invasion or even of peaceful infiltration of a clearly defined ethnic group from elsewhere.[7]



In the Late Bronze Age [1200BC] there were no more than about 25 villages in the highlands, but this increased to over 300 by the end of Iron I, while the settled population doubled from 20,000 to 40,000 [1000BC]

[1200] and [1000] added by me to show you the time periods discussed.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
This link proves nothing, it shows perceived evidence, but it gives no conclusion.

If that is the case, they are a lot more open than you are. You grasp at what little there is and come to a conclusion as if there is no more data being discovered and your conclusion is uncontroversial. It is also good evidence that no matter what archaeological discovery we find, you won't accept it because of your locked-up position.

Let me take just one piece:

In the spring of 1928 a Syrian farmer was plowing his field when he uncovered a stone over a grave. Archaeologists were called in which led to the discovery of the near by ancient city of Ugarit, modern day Ras Shamra (Curtis 1985, 18; Craigie 1983, 7). Many clay tablets were uncovered which were written in cuneiform in a language now called "Ugaritic." See also Ugarit and the Bible. Since Ugaritic is very similar to Hebrew it can help illuminate Hebrew words. One of the most interesting personal names is ysril which equals "Israel" in Hebrew (Gordon 1965, Text 2069:3; Glossary #1164). It is the name of a charioteer (mrynm; Zobel 1990, Vol.6, 399). While this is not referring to Israel as a nation, it does show the use of this personal name in the Late Bronze Age. The name "Israel" may have originally meant "El rules" in Ugaritic (Zobel 1990, 401).

A possible reference to Israel.
When providing a link you are required to post some of the evidence you want to debate, not just post a link by itself that really supports my position.

1) You just post links (unequal weights)
2) It doesn't support your position although I can see you wish every does.

This is how I know that you are displaying a flat-earth closed-minded mentality. You mentioned that "it gives no conclusion" and I quote:
Conclusion
It seems clear after looking at a number of ancient writers that all the ancient Jewish writers took the 430 or 400 years to cover the time in Egypt as well as Canaan. The Book of Jubilees counted 400 years from Abraham's entry into Canaan. Most of the Jewish writers counted the 400 years from Isaac's birth to the exodus. The actual time in Egypt was only 185 to 215 years according to most writers; however, Midrash Abkhir specifically states 86 years in Egypt (Rappoport 1966, Vol.2, 286-7). Another important note is that most of the Jewish writers pushed the date of the exodus back to about the time of the expulsion of the Hyksos. Joseph would have rose to power just before or during the time of the Hyksos.

Josephus says there are 592 years from the Exodus to the founding of Solomon's Temple (960 BC), while Sedar Olan Zutta says 480 years. The best explanation of this discrepancy is the omission of the oppressions in the Book of Judges (111 years). This was a common ancient practice as seen in ancient Egyptian king lists.

Josephus goes into detail quoting Manetho showing that the Jews were in Egypt. He equates the Jews with the Hyksos, and the Exodus with the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt by Ahmose who founded the 18th dynasty (1570-50 BC). Manetho had access to the original Egyptian hieroglyphics that modern scholars do not have. Yet modern scholars today, both liberal and conservative place the Exodus much later, and claim there is no evidence of the Exodus in Egyptian writings. The best explanation is to identify the Exodus from Egypt with the expulsion of the Hyksos for there is no other mass exit from Egypt.

It mentions Manetho who had access to information that we do not have anymore and that being:

In the Book of Sothis which Syncellus believed was the genuine Manetho it gives the specific time when Joseph rose to power under Hyksos king, Aphophis who ruled 61 years. It says: Some say that this king (Aphophis) was at first called Pharaoh, and that in the 4th year of his kingship Joseph came as a slave into Egypt. He appointed Joseph lord of Egypt and all his kingdom in the 17th year of his rule, having learned from him the interpretation of the dreams and having thus proved his divine wisdom (Manetho 1940, 239). Halpern has concluded, "Overall, the Joseph story is a reinterpretation of the Hyksos period from an Israelite perspective" (1992, 98).

Now, I may be wrong, but at least I am open to be wrong. But until greater evidence suggests I am wrong, I will take what was written in the different books the same way I would take a Cuneiform Tablet, possible evidence.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Modern scholars therefore see Israel arising peacefully and internally from existing people in the highlands of Canaan
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
One of the most important discoveries that relate to the time of the Exodus is the Merneptah stele which dates to about 1210 BC.

This implies that Israel did not have a king or kingdom at this time


Now you notice the most important piece of evidence they have, only relates to the time of the supposed exodus.

It also states at 1200 BC they were semi nomadic and had no kingdom
Semi-nomadic ties into no king as it was until the inception of King Saul.

But your biggest problem is the websites credibility, it has none.

Strawman. The information it has is quoted. It is as valid as Wikipedia that you quote so often.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Modern scholars therefore see Israel arising peacefully and internally from existing people in the highlands of Canaan

Yes... all the way up to when Jacob moved to Egypt.

Unsubstantiated rhetoric, with no historical credibility.


It is as valid as Wikipedia that you quote so often.

False, factually.

fostering the study of Scripture within an evangelical context


They are not a credible encyclopedia.

The exodus Is not even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Jacob moved to Egypt.


Jacob - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scholars such as Thomas L. Thompson view the patriarchical narratives, including the life of Jacob, as late (6th and 5th centuries BCE) literary compositions that have ideological and theological purposes but are unreliable for historical reconstruction of the presettlement period of Israel’s past.


Goldingay cites R.J Coggins' analogy of looking to Genesis for the history of ancient Canaan, as similar to reading Hamlet in order to learn Danish history
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The information it has is quoted. It is as valid as Wikipedia

False.

You don't even know his position at all. You don't even know who he is or his work.


You did what is typical of uneducated apologist, and quote mined material you know nothing about.


Really what it is coming down to is allegory of "you cannot teach an old dog new tricks" No matter how credible the education and knowledge academia provides.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Factually wrong.

The bile does not indicate that time period at all. The bible places the exodus much earlier.
Your position 3200 years ago.
My position-Joshua enters around 1406BC. Add approx 2000 years 3406

Difference 206 years. Well within your margin of error. Thank you for confirming.


Factually wrong again.

We see over a 200 year period the Israelite cultures, slowly growing larger. The exact opposite off what the bible states happened.

History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Modern scholars therefore see Israel arising peacefully and internally from existing people in the highlands of Canaan


Instead modern studies have revealed that the Israelites emerged from a dramatic social transformation of Canaanite nomads of the central hill country of Canaan around 1200 BCE, with no signs of violent invasion or even of peaceful infiltration of a clearly defined ethnic group from elsewhere.[7]
I don't agree.

Hazor

I don't think it was peaceful
 
Top