And a fundamentalist to boot.
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Do you think Moses existed as a historical figure?
- Thread starter Zulk-Dharma
- Start date
That site, IMO, simply reiterates the rethoric that has been debated for ages. Josephus and iraneus do not live up to the merits of actual evidence of the existence of this man. No disrespect to your beliefs, but as a person with a master's in theology, I have studied this extensively and it simply does not provide enough proof. It is belief, which is fine for you. But not for the scientific community to agree he really lived.
Modern man evolved through millennia of trial and error. There is simply no proof of some mythical couple that started humankind. To believe such stretches credulity to impossible limits.
Greatest I am
Well-Known Member
Shad
Veteran Member
Read your own citations....
Manetho provides no evidence of Jew in Egypt as we do not have his work, only commentary. Josephus and his views of Manetho is based on the mistranslation of Hyksos as Shepard Kings when in fact it means "rulers of foreign lands". This has been the established meaning for decades. The mistake refuted the theory completely. The Hyksos invasion also is no longer accepted as history, rather a migration took place over a few centuries as the Pharaoh lost the ability to keep the border secure during the Middle Bronze Age 2 collapse. . Read Beitak's work as he is the foremost expert. Migration started as early at the 13th dynasty. The explusion is also blown out of proportions as covered by Beitak. You are using ideas which are decades out of date because you are reading work from a non-expert. Your BBC articles is not made by an historian or archaeology but by an author. An author I will point out dismisses methodology if it proves his view wrong.
Manetho took Egyptian New Kingdom, and on, propaganda as fact. The Egyptians used the Hyksos to demonize foreigners. Between the 4-5 uses of Hyksos this creates contradicts in history hence the theory has no merit and no evidence that is not based on a mistranslation or the vies of an non-expert rehashing outdated information.
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Shad
Veteran Member
Gardiner, Egypt of the Pharaohs completely refutes Manetho's claims. So no Gardiner does not support your idea at all.
Murray's work in from the later 19th century and early 20th. She too makes the same mistake Manetho made, her support has no merit with modern data.
Soderbergh views are arguments from authority since he never worked on an excavations in Egypt nor is a trained Egyptologist. This is an argument from authority. You are also confusing citations for support of the articles when in fact one clearly does not what so ever. Read the book.
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outhouse
Atheistically
Your wrong again.
My sources come from encyclopedias and professors and acedemia
From your own link. Mythology and possibilities are different.
There is no warrant either in the Bible or outside it for simply equating the Hyksos with the later Hebrews
outhouse
Atheistically
I would say poor evidence, but evidence of later belief none the less.
Jesus best case for historicity, is that nothing explains all the evidence as well as martyred Galilean at Passover who's perceived selfless acts generated mythology that started the divorce of Hellenistic Judaism from cultural Judaism.
Shad
Veteran Member
Both Akhenaten and his son 2nd Crown Prince died early deaths, 25 and 18. This does not match the description of Moses nor Biblical tradition of Mose being 83 and 80 years old, the family life as a child. More so Akhenaten was a monotheist thus his enemies were polytheist following the former Egyptian religion. You need to assume a number of idea without justification. 1) There was a rival monotheist religion in Egypt at the same time 2) There were rebels and/or exiles which followed this assumed religion. 3) This assumed religion had any similarities to Judaism. You are grasping at straws as there is no evidence for any point. You are taking the Exodus account and retrofitting it to fit your views with no justification[/QUOTE]
True, that. I have read several books, including Karen armstrong's the history of God that I found more enlightening but you make a good point. I wonder, however, how you see the dichotomy of Hellenistic Judaism and cultural Judaism as your proof of the lack of evidence of the historical Christ. Care to explain?
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Yes sounds about right.
As one who is working on my Doctorate in theology, I never said that in and of itself it is all the proof we need. The issue isn't whether or not there is enough proof to say that it happened but rather is there enough pieces of the puzzle to say, "There is enough to hold to the position that it remains in the realm of possibilities". And in my opinion, a good possibility
The question was directed to someone else... and you didn't answer the question.
outhouse
Atheistically
yawn
Good luck with the PhD! Is there a possibility a man like Jesus lived? Sure. I admit that. What I cannot find rational is that he is all that history has led us to try to believe. He cannot be the messiah because, as you know, he does not live up to the standards of Jewish dogma. My view is that he, if he lived, was more like the Buddha or any of the great Hindu teachers. No one states that The Buddha was of God, so why is Christ the only one elevated to such incredulous heights? IMO, they needed a figure elevated to such a level for control measures. However, it clearly backfired, obviously. Just my thoughts.
outhouse
Atheistically
From the way he quote mine's, and post material he has no idea what is even being stated, I highly doubt it.
I don't even see a masters, or any college courses on these topics after debating him for a week.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
This implies that you believe Jesus to not be the messiah, based on other religious writings. Which in turn implies that you 'believe' those writings.
Why compare the Buddha to Jesus? Why should Jesus be the 'same' as Buddha?
Actually I believe you have it sort of backwards. The Jesus figure is deific, and is sort of ''manified'' by various denominations, and churches, etc.
~disciple
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mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
Archaeology is the talk of modern science
The beginnings through Almstcherqan Europeans
Who went to the Middle East are looking for archaeological treasures
But this science develops into several schools contradictory
Each school has a certain goal
But this dependence in draw any result is through the mind and the correct evidence
1. Some say here that Moses fictional character
The proof is some archaeological finds missing
It is not enough to prove the validity of how is reliable in the formation of the theory of what destroyed transferred from successive generations of historically
For almost 3500 years ???
2. All peoples of the world have not been able to keep Bozaigaha as Jews maintained the integrity of their book
Despite the disaster that took place, and in spite of persecutions
3. That is when we collect the documents with this mental conclusion result is Yes Moses was present in history
4. It may be possible that there is some exaggeration in the description of some of the historical events
But this is an acceptable result in a book like the Bible
Which lasted for more than 3000 years
The version that came to us in our hands
We are Christians and Jews
When archaeologists came to Iraq they hear about civilization and the greatness of Babylon and Assyria
But when he attended the archaeologists found that greatness in many locations from the land of Iraq
I've been researching the health and strength of the Torah guide
Arabs and Muslims have played a key role in the killing of those civilizations
And also had a significant role in the destruction of many libraries
Including the Library of Alexandria
2. I do not know the meaning Balhecsus
Historically there Ahjrtin to Palestine
Immigration was one of the first people Urby was inhabited Greek island of Crete, a
Palestinians continued
Second, immigration was one of the Jewish people after the number is completed over a few hundred years
Because the descendants of Abraham immigration to Palestine was after many generations
The beginnings through Almstcherqan Europeans
Who went to the Middle East are looking for archaeological treasures
But this science develops into several schools contradictory
Each school has a certain goal
But this dependence in draw any result is through the mind and the correct evidence
1. Some say here that Moses fictional character
The proof is some archaeological finds missing
It is not enough to prove the validity of how is reliable in the formation of the theory of what destroyed transferred from successive generations of historically
For almost 3500 years ???
2. All peoples of the world have not been able to keep Bozaigaha as Jews maintained the integrity of their book
Despite the disaster that took place, and in spite of persecutions
3. That is when we collect the documents with this mental conclusion result is Yes Moses was present in history
4. It may be possible that there is some exaggeration in the description of some of the historical events
But this is an acceptable result in a book like the Bible
Which lasted for more than 3000 years
The version that came to us in our hands
We are Christians and Jews
When archaeologists came to Iraq they hear about civilization and the greatness of Babylon and Assyria
But when he attended the archaeologists found that greatness in many locations from the land of Iraq
I've been researching the health and strength of the Torah guide
Arabs and Muslims have played a key role in the killing of those civilizations
And also had a significant role in the destruction of many libraries
Including the Library of Alexandria
2. I do not know the meaning Balhecsus
Historically there Ahjrtin to Palestine
Immigration was one of the first people Urby was inhabited Greek island of Crete, a
Palestinians continued
Second, immigration was one of the Jewish people after the number is completed over a few hundred years
Because the descendants of Abraham immigration to Palestine was after many generations
I tend to take what people say at face value. I am new here and in time, I will know who has the knowledge and who is fibbing. But I do appreciate your input outhouse.
I do not believe Jesus was a messiah, in that, you are correct. But what you are incorrect about is that I base that on other writings when in fact, I base that on the lack of credible evidence. And why not compare Buddha to Christ? Both were excellent spiritual teachers, assuming here they lived at all. I do not know what "manified' even means so I cannot comment on that. I will say that ' the Jesus figure' may have been deified by humankind but I fail to see how that makes him 'deific'. Just my thoughts.