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Do you think that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world?

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
You are absolutely right, what God should do is wholly dependent upon God's goals, not dependent upon what humans want God to do.
Seeing as we can’t even be sure God exists, I’m not sure how we can even begin to speculate what his goals might be.
Maybe or maybe not, because maybe there is another way for people to acknowledge God's existence.
I’m sure there’s other ways, but none so certain or effective as God simply saying hello.

Logically speaking, an Omniscient God knows the best way to communicate and an Omnipotent God could communicate to everyone if it wanted to, so since God does not communicate to everyone, we can logically conclude one of three things: (1) God chose another way to communicate, (2) God does not communicate, or (3) God does not exist.
I think this is a logical breakdown.
God could put it through our minds because God is Omnipotent, but according to my beliefs our minds are incapable of comprehending God directly, which is one reason God does not communicate to everyone directly... There are other reasons but I am keeping those under my hat for now. :)
But this doesn’t make sense. God cannot both be able to communicate with us directly and be unable to make us understand him. That’s a direct contradiction. If he is omnipotent and omniscient, then he would be able to both understand our minds and be able to make us understand him.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You avoided the question, not surprisingly. BTW.
I did not deliberately avoid that question. I just answered it in my own way.
Okay, let me answer it again, now that I think I know what you are after..
What gives you the right, or the privilege or the knowledge to 'show people the door'? Maybe it's the wrong door for me.
I do not need to get permission to share what I believe. I have a right to show other people what I believe, especially if they ask. If they already have a door they usually don’t ask.

I cannot always know what they are looking for because I am not a mind reader. I just respond according to what I think they asked.

What I have could be the wrong door for them or it could be the right door for them, but they can determine that for themselves. We all have the free will to choose what to believe.
I'd say ... go find your own door. Mine might not work for you.
I am not you so I do not respond like you. If people are looking for a door, I do not tell them to go looking somewhere else when I know I have a door. My door might not work for them but they can determine that for themselves and then they can go looking somewhere else.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Seeing as we can’t even be sure God exists, I’m not sure how we can even begin to speculate what his goals might be.
According to my beliefs, we can only know the will of God, and thus His goals, from what a Messenger of God reveals to us.

We cannot ever prove God exists in an objective fashion but we can be sure that God exists after we have proven that to ourselves.
I’m sure there’s other ways, but none so certain or effective as God simply saying hello.
It would be effective if God's goal was for us to be certain because He made us certain my saying hello. God might want us to be certain, but He might want us to become certain by some other method.
I think this is a logical breakdown.
Where is the breakdown?
But this doesn’t make sense. God cannot both be able to communicate with us directly and be unable to make us understand him. That’s a direct contradiction. If he is omnipotent and omniscient, then he would be able to both understand our minds and be able to make us understand him.
It does not work that way. Just because (hypothetically) an omnipotent God could communicate to us directly does not mean we could understand that communication. The caveat is that our minds were not created with the capacity to understand God directly. Only the Messengers of God can understand God directly because they are more than human since they have a divine mind.

God understands our minds but we were not created with the capacity to understand God’s mind. That is why God sends Messengers to act as Mediators. They can bridge the gap between God and humans and help us understand God because they are both human and divine, kind of like a God-man.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
God understands our minds but we were not created with the capacity to understand God’s mind. That is why God sends Messengers to act as Mediators. They can bridge the gap between God and humans and help us understand God because they are both human and divine, kind of like a God-man.

According to your beliefs, yes.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Do you think that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world?

If you think God should do that, please explain why you think so.
If you think God should not do that, please explain why not.

Please explain the reasons for your answer.

Thanks, Trailblazer :)

Oh . . . communicate directly? . . . it is pretentious in the extreme for anyone to make these assumptions regardless of whether God exists or not.

If God exists the nature of God's relationship with Creation and humanity is determined by God, and not the 'opinions' of human speculation.

If God does not exist human 'opinions' are equally meaningless.

Of course, I believe Revelation to humanity is universal, the selective view of exclusive Revelation to one culture at one time or another is illogical and not remotely reasonable from the perspective of compassionate God that does not play favorites as described from the perspective of ancient cultures.
 
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Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
According to my beliefs, we can only know the will of God, and thus His goals, from what a Messenger of God reveals to us.

We cannot ever prove God exists in an objective fashion but we can be sure that God exists after we have proven that to ourselves.
No disrespect, but how do you know someone is a Messenger of God? If you personally can’t know the will of God, how can you recognize it when another speaks it? How can you distinguish between a crazy homeless guy who thinks he’s God’s messenger, and someone who actually is?
It would be effective if God's goal was for us to be certain because He made us certain my saying hello. God might want us to be certain, but He might want us to become certain by some other method.
That’s a fair point. However, I do believe that any other way will result in winners and losers. God simply making sure everyone understands that he exists is perfectly egalitarian. But God relying on any other method will necessarily be unfair to some, depending on their personalities and upbringing.
Where is the breakdown?
Sorry for the unclear wording. I meant that that was a good analysis.

It does not work that way. Just because (hypothetically) an omnipotent God could communicate to us directly does not mean we could understand that communication. The caveat is that our minds were not created with the capacity to understand God directly. Only the Messengers of God can understand God directly because they are more than human since they have a divine mind.

God understands our minds but we were not created with the capacity to understand God’s mind. That is why God sends Messengers to act as Mediators. They can bridge the gap between God and humans and help us understand God because they are both human and divine, kind of like a God-man.
If we are unable to understand the communication, that means God is unable to communicate to us directly. You cannot have it both ways. Communication requires understanding for it to be considered communication. Either god can make us understand or god is unable to communicate.

Perhaps you could say “God is able to make us understand him but he chooses not to do so.” That would be logically consistent then.

As for your messenger mediators, that just seems like an unnecessary step that will just increase confusion, doubt, and the possibility that the message will be warped as it passes from person-to-person.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No disrespect, but how do you know someone is a Messenger of God? If you personally can’t know the will of God, how can you recognize it when another speaks it? How can you distinguish between a crazy homeless guy who thinks he’s God’s messenger, and someone who actually is?
It is not that difficult to distinguish between a true Messenger of God and someone who just thinks he is a messenger if one does the necessary research and investigation. One has evidence to support His claim to be a Messenger and the other has jack squat.

What comes first, the chicken of the egg? How could you ever know the will of God without a message from God, and if God does not communicate any other way but through a Messenger how could you know the will of God without what the Messenger revealed? Think about it. :)
That’s a fair point. However, I do believe that any other way will result in winners and losers. God simply making sure everyone understands that he exists is perfectly egalitarian. But God relying on any other method will necessarily be unfair to some, depending on their personalities and upbringing.
There will always be winners and losers in life, but only in the sense that some people can achieve things that others cannot achieve. We cannot all be the same. Can we all be attorneys or physicians just because we all want to be attorneys or physicians? No, we have to earn that privilege and some of us are not cut out to be an attorney or a physician or do not have that opportunity or the necessary intelligence.

If God revealed Himself to everyone directly, then some people who did not earn the privilege of knowing that God exists would find out that God exists. That is not fair to other people who worked hard, people who made a sincere effort to search for God and found God on their own merit.

Is it unfair for a teacher to expect a student to earn a grade? Should everyone get an A just because they took the class?

All that God expects of people is sincerity and effort. Not everyone will be able to believe in God or in a certain religion because of factors that constrain our free will; factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances all effect what we will believe. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. Of course an omniscient God understands that and takes it into consideration.
If we are unable to understand the communication, that means God is unable to communicate to us directly. You cannot have it both ways. Communication requires understanding for it to be considered communication. Either god can make us understand or god is unable to communicate.
Why do you think that communication requires understanding? Would you say that a professor with a PhD in math who teaches calculus could make a first grader understand calculus? It would be meaningless communication to the first grader, but isn’t it still communication even though the child does not understand it?
Perhaps you could say “God is able to make us understand him but he chooses not to do so.” That would be logically consistent then.
What you need to understand is that we cannot ever understand God directly. God cannot make us understand Him directly because the human mind is incapable of understanding God directly. God would have to recreate man in order to make that possible.
As for your messenger mediators, that just seems like an unnecessary step that will just increase confusion, doubt, and the possibility that the message will be warped as it passes from person-to-person.
There is no way around the use of Mediators because humans are incapable of understanding God directly. We are only able to receive and understand God’s communication as it is filtered through a Messenger.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you think God should do that, please explain why you think so.
If you think God should not do that, please explain why not.

Please explain the reasons for your answer.
The question is a little ambiguous: it could be read as requiring God to communicate with each believer, or it could simply require [him] to have a TV spot or issue bulletins.

If the first, I thought God was supposed to do that already. But since, as I gather, that doesn't happen in such a way as to provide information, I think accessing relevant information should be at the least an optional add-on to the service.

If the second, then that's the least we should expect from an omnipotent, omniscient Ruler of the Universe (who's also said to be omnipresent yet, as you've noticed, simultaneously undetectable) who it's said wants things done in a certain way. It's up to God to make [his] will known in a manner credible to everyone ─ the present system is flawed in that it actively encourages sectarianism.

But either way, the answer to your question is, definitely.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The question is a little ambiguous: it could be read as requiring God to communicate with each believer, or it could simply require [him] to have a TV spot or issue bulletins.
To clarify, I was asking if you think that God should communicate directly with everyone in the world, with all of 7.44 billion people, believers and nonbelievers.

If God had a TV spot or issued bulletins, how would you know it was God?
If the first, I thought God was supposed to do that already. But since, as I gather, that doesn't happen in such a way as to provide information, I think accessing relevant information should be at the least an optional add-on to the service.
No, God does not communicate directly with anyone except His Messengers. He communicates the relevant information to them and they communicate the relevant information to all of humanity in scriptures.
If the second, then that's the least we should expect from an omnipotent, omniscient Ruler of the Universe (who's also said to be omnipresent yet, as you've noticed, simultaneously undetectable) who it's said wants things done in a certain way. It's up to God to make [his] will known in a manner credible to everyone ─ the present system is flawed in that it actively encourages sectarianism.
God has communicated to everyone through His Messenger Baha’u’llah and God said exactly what He wants done and how it is to be done in over 15,000 Tablets that contain the instructions. It is getting done right now but it will take a long time to complete. Humans move rather slowly. :rolleyes:

The present system inculcated by Baha’u’llah does not encourage sectarianism. Quite the contrary, it encourages acceptance of all religions as part of one continuous process of revelation from God to man, each one pertinent to a given age of history.

Why do you think that God should be credible to everyone? Does everyone deserve to know that God exists even if they make no effort to determine that?
But either way, the answer to your question is, definitely.
Definitely God owes everyone a separate message with all the 15,000 Tablets that Baha’u’llah wrote attached to it?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
This is obvious as the sky is Carolina blue at noon on a clear 4th of July, but it avoids the issue; 'Is God's relationship with humanity universal.'
Some folks like to speak/write as if their beliefs are fact. I think we all need reminders occasionally to tone that down. Obviously, God's relationship with humanity isn't universal. He/she has no relationship at all with many people. You have no relationship with the G, because you don't even know who it is.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Do you think that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world?

If you think God should do that, please explain why you think so.
If you think God should not do that, please explain why not.

Please explain the reasons for your answer.

Thanks, Trailblazer :)

God already did all that at the time God was here on earth some 2000 years ago.

Even then people could not accept it, so what makes you think people would be more acceptable to day. Which people would not.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
God already did all that at the time God was here on earth some 2000 years ago.

There is no evidence that all people of the world were revealed the Christian Revelation two thousand years ago. Before that the only people to receive Revelation were the Hebrews.
 

Regiomontanus

Eastern Orthodox
Do you think that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world?

If you think God should do that, please explain why you think so.
If you think God should not do that, please explain why not.

Please explain the reasons for your answer.

Thanks, Trailblazer :)


Hello. I see the key word in your question is 'directly'.

I am no theologian (not that they necessarily know more about this than anyone else!) but it seems to me that this is related to free will.

Why not make all of creation automatically worship Her? Then we would all just be automatons. We live in a rational universe and have been endowed with rational minds as well as loving hearts (though obviously the latter are often blackened by a number of factors, mostly cultural/societal IMHO). No, we must choose to know and love the creator, through creation, using our minds and hearts.

Of course I could very well be wrong :)

Peace
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
There is no evidence that all people of the world were revealed the Christian Revelation two thousand years ago. Before that the only people to receive Revelation were the Hebrews.


Nope not at all, at the time Christ Jesus was here on earth, his message went to the lost sheep of Israel first, Then after Israel rejected Christ Jesus, Then Christ Jesus sent his 12 disciples out into the world to give the message of Christ Jesus to the world.
But as it is, people are still even to day rejecting the message of Christ Jesus.

So seeing people are rejecting the message of Christ Jesus, What good would it do for God to come again, when people can't even accept God's written word.

Even back at the time of Christ Jesus people came to him required to know about things in heaven and Christ Jesus said unto them.
John 3:12---" If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

So you see, if people can not accept God's written word, they still wouldn't accept God himself even if he did come here again.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Nope not at all, at the time Christ Jesus was here on earth, his message went to the lost sheep of Israel first, Then after Israel rejected Christ Jesus, Then Christ Jesus sent his 12 disciples out into the world to give the message of Christ Jesus to the world.
But as it is, people are still even to day rejecting the message of Christ Jesus.

It is a claim an there is no evidence of His message going world wide.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
It is not that difficult to distinguish between a true Messenger of God and someone who just thinks he is a messenger if one does the necessary research and investigation. One has evidence to support His claim to be a Messenger and the other has jack squat.
I really don’t know what research could possibly support such a claim. Well... except for verifiable miracles. But even that wouldn’t necessarily confirm that the person is a messenger of God. The person could be like an X-man and either pretending or delusional that the powers come from god. Or he could be an alien— so maybe a messenger, but just not necessarily from god.
What comes first, the chicken of the egg? How could you ever know the will of God without a message from God, and if God does not communicate any other way but through a Messenger how could you know the will of God without what the Messenger revealed? Think about it. :)
How is this helpful if we can not verify that the messenger comes from God?
There will always be winners and losers in life, but only in the sense that some people can achieve things that others cannot achieve. We cannot all be the same. Can we all be attorneys or physicians just because we all want to be attorneys or physicians? No, we have to earn that privilege and some of us are not cut out to be an attorney or a physician or do not have that opportunity or the necessary intelligence.

If God revealed Himself to everyone directly, then some people who did not earn the privilege of knowing that God exists would find out that God exists. That is not fair to other people who worked hard, people who made a sincere effort to search for God and found God on their own merit.

Is it unfair for a teacher to expect a student to earn a grade? Should everyone get an A just because they took the class?
If god revealed himself directly at the beginning of everyone’s life, then the issue of “hard work for some, no work for others” would be resolved. We’d all start out on a level playing field.

As for your student example, I am not sure why Figuring out that God exists should be the test in the first place. Do students have to go searching for a school that may or may not exist before they can even start studying?

The sincerity and effort could be demonstrated in actually doing whatever it is god wants us to do— whether it is to be a good person, or becoming one with everything, or to devote our lives to his worship, or whatever.
All that God expects of people is sincerity and effort. Not everyone will be able to believe in God or in a certain religion because of factors that constrain our free will; factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances all effect what we will believe. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. Of course an omniscient God understands that and takes it into consideration.

Well, that’s the million dollar question, isn’t it? If God honors effort, even if we ultimately fail, then ok— it doesn’t really matter that the playing field is unfair. But if God requires success (i.e. belief in him and the correct religion), then the fact that some people aren’t cut out to be “doctors” or “lawyers” is very unfair. Salvation shouldn’t be dependent upon an accident of birth.
Why do you think that communication requires understanding? Would you say that a professor with a PhD in math who teaches calculus could make a first grader understand calculus? It would be meaningless communication to the first grader, but isn’t it still communication even though the child does not understand it?
No, I would not say that is communication, if nothing is understood. Think of the pheromone communication that ants use among themselves. As you destroy their nest, they may desperately aim those pheromones at you— in an attempt of communication. But nothing would be communicated because you do not understand it.

Communication requires both a sender and a receiver. If the receiver is broken, then the sender is just making noise.
What you need to understand is that we cannot ever understand God directly. God cannot make us understand Him directly because the human mind is incapable of understanding God directly. God would have to recreate man in order to make that possible.

There is no way around the use of Mediators because humans are incapable of understanding God directly. We are only able to receive and understand God’s communication as it is filtered through a Messenger.
Two things:
1. You said “God would have to recreate man in order to make that possible.” So this means it is possible for God to speak directly to us. He would just have to fix us. He’s omnipotent. He could do it right now and make it like that’s how it’s always been. So like I said, it’s not that he can’t, it’s that he chooses not to.

2. I agree that (in its current form) our human minds would not be able to understand all that is God. I also think that we can’t understand all that is anyone, really. God is just orders of magnitude higher. You cannot fully comprehend your best friend, so of course you cannot fully comprehend God.

But.

But you still can comprehend that your friend exists. You can still comprehend some things about your friend. We do not need to be able to fully comprehend God in order to be able to comprehend some things about God. We could comprehend that he exists, for instance— people literally believe that he exists now, so we are obviously able to comprehend that a god-like being exists.

God doesn’t need to dump everything into our brains. The Christians believe he was able to become human, once. Obviously, he’d be able to modulate the information he imparts so that it is able to be comprehended by the human mind.

If he prefers to use Messengers, fine. That’s his choice. But let’s not pretend that an omnipotent, omniscient God can’t figure out how to directly communicate with us.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
ecco
Which god?
The One God who revealed all the major religions... there is only One Real God.
I'm sure that the vast majority of Muslims, Christians and Jews don't believe that the god who "revealed" himself through a 19th Century Muslim is the same god they worship. In fact I'd bet that the vast majority of Muslims, Christians and Jews have never even heard of Baha'i.

I'm sure Hindus would also be offended by your comment considering Hinduism is a major religion.




Any other god(s) that people believe in are imaginary gods because they do not exist in reality.​
So close. All you had to do was take out the word "other".
Any god(s) that people believe in are imaginary gods because they do not exist in reality.​
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Can you explain why you quote Lazarus Long in your tagline.
Freedom begins when you tell Mrs Grundy to go fly a kite.
-- Lazarus Long​



Here is one of his many comments on gods and religion..

[Robert Heinlein, "Notebooks of Lazarus Long," from Time Enough for Love (1973).]

The most preposterous notion that H. Sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all of history.​
 
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