Do you think that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world?

[Vinayaka]

It makes no difference how old the scriptures are.
I just meant that Gandhi could not have written those scriptures you noted because he was not alive thousands of years ago.

Then I misunderstood. I thought you just said he didn't have any scriptures.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then I misunderstood. I thought you just said he didn't have any scriptures.

I was just misinformed. I did not know that Gandhi had scriptures.

I do not know much about Gandhi, except for what I saw in the movie. From what I recall, I was very impressed by his upstanding character.

 

[Trailblazer]

There’s a lot to digest here. I’m afraid I’ll only disappoint since I ultimately disagree with your basic premise that God cannot make himself understood directly to humans. That seems like such an odd and unnecessary curtailment of God’s abilities.

Sorry that was so long, and my response will probably also be so long it will have to be divided up into two posts.

There can be no direct communication between God and ordinary humans. This is not a curtailment of God’s abilities because it has nothing to do with God’s inability to communicate; it is related to humans’ inability to receive communication directly from God. Our brains are simply not endowed with the capacity to understand God directly. That is one reason God sends Messenger, who have a divine mind, thus the capacity to receive communication from God through the Holy Spirit.

God can make Himself understood through His Messengers.

This simply leaves too much room for error and confusion. People can convince themselves of some pretty awful things.

I suppose that is possible, but that is why you do so much research and investigation of the Messenger and His religion, in order to prevent being fooled and making a mistake. What other choice do we have?

It is not only Messengers and religion that we cannot verify. There are all kinds of things in our day-to-day life that we have to decide upon that are not verifiable. We do our best to get as much information as possible so we can make an informed decision, but eventually we have to make a decision nevertheless because no decision is a decision.

I have a good analogy for you. I have needed a new roof on the addition to my rental house for about six months but I was really anxious about picking the “right roofer” because I did not want to make a mistake. I got nine different bids and then I compared the bids. There was a wide disparity from highest to lowest and there were a few in between that were close to the same. From the lowest bids I picked a couple of roofers and called them to get more information. First I called the second to lowest bidder and he was booked until October. I also found out his prices have gone up because the cost of shingles has gone up. So I crossed him off my list, because I could not wait until October.

I had already waiting too long, since this roof is on a rental home and I should have gotten it replaced a long time ago. The lowest bidder was quite a bit less than the second lowest bidder and much less than any of the other bidders, so I was worried maybe he would cut corners and do a shoddy job. However, I really wanted to hire him because I wanted to save money. So I called him and requested references. He sent me five references and I called all the people on the list. They all said about the same thing about this roofer; that he was excellent, lower in price than any other roofers, that he was honest and would do a really good job.

I already had a gut feeling about that roofer, but of course I had to have references because one cannot go by a gut feeling alone. I have now hired that roofer and set up a time next week for him to come and do the roof. I could have only gotten a few bids, as other people suggested, but I knew from past experience of having a roof job that there can be a wide disparity in the cost, so it is best to get as many bids as possible. It took a long time to get all these bids and it was very stressful, but I was determined to do it the right way. As a result of getting so many bids, I will save over two thousand dollars, and now I have a roofer I feel very comfortable with who I can use for my own house in the future.

The upshot of all this is that because I did my research and investigation I feel confident I made the right decision. By not making a decision for so long I was making a decision to wait till I found the right roofer but I had to finally make a decision because I have a tenant in that house.

The same is true with religion. No decision is a decision to abdicate belief in God. You can do that, some people do, but the might not be the wisest or the most prudent decision. However, one does not want to make a hasty decision either, picking a religion and later realizing it was not the best choice, then being stuck with that decision for all of eternity. Mind you, picking roofer is nowhere near as important as picking religion, for obvious reasons.

Not to mention, the vast array of different religious beliefs have caused so much strife. And we are still no closer to knowing whether our beliefs are true or not.

Yes, conflicting religious beliefs have caused strife because people who are really attached to their religions and believe they are “the only true ones” can sometimes be very competitive or even violent in defending what they believe.

Since religious beliefs are not something that can be unequivocally proven to be true in an objective fashion, each one of us can only know that they are true for ourselves. We determine that by doing a thorough research and investigation, until we are finally satisfied that we have the truth, if we ever get to that point. Obviously this is not easy, especially if we are looking at a wide array of religions, but there is really no need to look at “every religion” because the list can be narrowed down by knowing a few things about them. For example, I know certain roofing companies I would not even bother to call because they do not fit my criteria since I now they are very expensive since they have a lot of overhead. There is no need to spend more money than I have to in order to get the roof done properly.

That is true, but that won’t help you determine if God exists, if that is your objective. Why would you worship something you do not know exists?

Of course you would not want to worship a God you do not know exists, but the Catch-22 is that nobody can “prove” that God exists. The only way to know anything about God is from religious scriptures, so once we have determined that a certain religion is true for us, then that becomes the evidence that God exists, and it can even constitute proof for us if we are sure of the religion.

Again, not asking for a free ride. Not looking to put in zero effort. God telling us that he exists doesn’t prevent us from putting forth effort towards other aspects that could be so much more useful. I am saying that there is still room for effort even if God tells us that he exists; e.g., we all know God exists, but some may be more devout in worship, or some may rebel, or some may work to do God’s will.

I never implied that you were looking for a free ride. I only said that there is no free ride.

You are correct in saying that there would still be room for effort even if God told us that He exists, but there are “other reasons” God does not tell us He exists aside from God wanting us to put forth the effort to determine that.

One reason God does not communicate directly to anyone except his Messengers is because we could never understand God directly; we simply do not have that capacity within the human brain. Messengers by contrast have a divine mind so they have the capacity to receive and understand God’s communication. They are in effect not just humans like us, they are a higher order of creation.

The other reason God does not communicate directly is because God wants us to recognize His Messenger and have faith in Him as being a Representative of God, a perfect reflection of God, a Manifestation of God, the same as God except not God in the flesh.

It seems arbitrary that knowledge of God’s existence be the thing we must put all this effort towards.

But that is not what we are putting all the effort towards. Knowledge of God and God’s will for us is what we are putting the effort towards. Of course, it is a given that God exists if we have knowledge “of God.”

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5​

What that passage means by “knowledge of God” is that we know as much as we are able to know, as much as God allows us to know, about God and we can only know that through what the Messenger of God reveals. The Messenger also reveals the Will of God, teachings and laws of the religion, and what He reveals is “identical” with the Will of God.

If effort is so important, why not start us out in a blank dark void where we have to imagine the existence of light before we can even see? And then so on, until through our tireless effort, we come to the conclusion that God exists? That would require much more effort than our current situation.

We might come to the conclusion that God exists by that method but it would be a pretty useless conclusion because we would not be basing that conclusion upon the evidence God provides, Messengers, but rather upon our own imagination and thus we could end up being wrong.

Effort is not the whole ball of wax. Effort needs to be put forth to determine which religion is true but that is just the half of it; then we have to hold fast to what we found by virtue of that effort and that requires faith. Our faith will be tested.

Apparently maximum effort isn’t required. Why should the line be on one side of God’s existence and not the other? Go back to the school analogy. You say that we must discover which school we want to attend. Ok. But my point is that we don’t even know that schools exist.

It varies from person to person how much effort is required to believe in God. For some it is as easy as falling off a log, for others it is a near impossible feat. That is because we all bring a different things to the table by virtue of our childhood and adult experiences, our intelligence, our educational background, etc.

When I said that we must discover which school we want to attend I was referring to discovering which religion to look at. If someone is searching for God they have to decide where to look, which religions to look at. We do know that religions exist, even though we do not know if God exists. You may or may not “find God” to be believable because of that religion.

(Continued on next post...)

 

[Trailblazer]

And no, free will does not grant a level playing field. People born in predominantly theistic societies have a huge leg up on those born in atheistic ones. From childhood, they are already primed to believe that God exists. Why should an accident of birth reduce the amount of effort required for the most important quest we have in life?

True, the playing field is not perfectly level because we all bring a different things to the table, as I said above. It is level in the sense that we are all looking at the same evidence, e.g., if we are looking at the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, but how we view the evidence will be completely different depending upon what we bring to the table.

As far as believing that God exists, those in theistic societies have a leg up, if they were raised in a religious home, and most people are raised that way in theistic societies. I live in a country where about 97% of people say that they believe in God, but I was not raised in a religious home, nor was I raised to believe in God. I never even thought about God until I stumbled upon the Baha’i Faith during my first year of college. You might say that I found God by going through the back door; first I believed in the Baha’i Faith because of its teachings, and then I concluded it was revealed by God to Baha’u’llah. The thing is that I never had a strong “faith” in God even though I always knew God existed because of Baha’u’llah, and that is probably because I was not raised believing in God.

Another point is that being raised in a certain religion makes it very difficult to change religions in adulthood, so it is a hindrance from recognizing a “new religion” such as the Baha’i Faith. I had no previous religion, so I had no confirmation bias; I was a blank slate thus open to looking at what I found with an unbiased mind. Moreover, I had no reason to question it because it aligned with my values and ideals.

I suppose if one was raised in an atheist society they would be going against the tide, like a salmon going upstream to try to believe in God. It is not impossible, just more difficult.

I would hope that god appreciates effort— that’s the sort of God I hope exists.

Yes, God appreciates effort. That definitely is the God I believe in and the One Baha’u’llah revealed. Note that third quote of Baha’u’llah, which indicates that God will guide those who make an effort.

“The incomparable Creator hath created all men from one same substance, and hath exalted their reality above the rest of His creatures. Success or failure, gain or loss, must, therefore, depend upon man’s own exertions. The more he striveth, the greater will be his progress.” Gleanings, pp. 81-82

“Know thou that all men have been created in the nature made by God, the Guardian, the Self-Subsisting. Unto each one hath been prescribed a pre-ordained measure, as decreed in God’s mighty and guarded Tablets. All that which ye potentially possess can, however, be manifested only as a result of your own volition. Your own acts testify to this truth…” Gleanings, p. 149

“When the detached wayfarer and sincere seeker hath fulfilled these essential conditions, then and only then can he be called a true seeker. Whensoever he hath fulfilled the conditions implied in the verse: “Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.” Gleanings, pp. 266-267​

However, we have each been given a measure that has been preordained by God.... To those who much was given much is expected.

“From the exalted source, and out of the essence of His favor and bounty He hath entrusted every created thing with a sign of His knowledge, so that none of His creatures may be deprived of its share in expressing, each according to its capacity and rank, this knowledge.” Gleanings, p. 262​

Well, I think it would be an incredible mistake to make beings you can’t communicate with if your goal is to have a relationship with them.

The first caveat is that God can communicate through His Messengers and we can have a relationship with God through Them, but we cannot have a “direct relationship” with God. Even Baha’u’llah wrote that he had no such direct relationship with God! He simply heard God’s Voice and recorded the message.

“Nay, forbid it, O my God, that I should have uttered such words as must of necessity imply the existence of any direct relationship between the Pen of Thy Revelation and the essence of all created things. Far, far are They Who are related to Thee above the conception of such relationship! All comparisons and likenesses fail to do justice to the Tree of Thy Revelation, and every way is barred to the comprehension of the Manifestation of Thy Self and the Day Spring of Thy Beauty.” Gleanings, p. 4​

The second caveat is that God does not want to have a “direct relationship” with humans. I know this it is a Christian belief that we can have a direct relationship with God, but that is because most Christian believe Jesus was God. Baha’is do not believe this, or that we can have a direct relationship with God because we believe God is unknowable, beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived by humans. All we can know about God are His Attributes that are revealed to and reflected off His Messengers and God’s Will for every age in history... We can never know the Essence (intrinsic nature) of God.

I’m not sure I understand your distinction between All-Powerful and “able to do anything”. I think the only exemption I’d make for an All-Powerful being is that it can’t do illogical things (like make a rock so heavy it can’t lift). Everything else is fair game.

Maybe, but the caveat is that God only does what God wants to do, not what we want Him to do and not what we think He should do. This is God 101 stuff. The omnipotence of God is summarized in the following passages Baha’u’llah wrote.

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284​

Since communicating with humans isn’t illogical or even particularly hard, I don’t see why an all-powerful God couldn’t do it. I don’t think he’d even have to change us.

I still think the better argument for you is that God could do it but for whatever reason, he chooses not to. Otherwise, I don’t think I’d consider your God to be omnipotent.

You just hit the nail on the head. It is not about what is hard and what is easy for God to do, because God can do anything. It is ALL about what God chooses to do, and what God chooses not to do, as demonstrated in the above three passages above.

I agree that, if God existed, AND he wants to communicate with us, AND he is omnipotent and omniscient, then (1) would be the only possible explanation as to why he doesn’t talk to us directly. But that’s a lot of if’s.

That is a great summary. I might want to share that with that atheist friend I was talking about, if you don’t mind. Yes, it is a lot of ifs.

Personally, I’m closer to your atheist friend: it makes no sense for God not to just speak to us directly. In order for me to accept something that doesn’t make sense, I’d need evidence that this omni-God exists, because then I’d believe that there’s a good reason behind it.

It makes no sense to you, but don’t you think that God is the one it needs to make sense to, since God is the one “doing” the communicating? I mean don’t you think God would know that best way to communicate to humans, as you suggested above?

So what you are saying is that the only way you would believe God exists is if God spoke to you directly? Have you ever wondered why that is not necessary for the 93% of people in the world who believe in God?

There is a (4) option that’s a little less harsh than yours: God is either not omnipotent or not omniscient, or neither. That means he can’t do it, even if he wanted to.

Any God that is not omnipotent and omniscient is not worthy of anyone’s belief, as far as I am concerned. However, I suppose there are some non-Abrahamic religions that believe in a different kind of God. Whether such a God exists is another matter. It sure does not make sense to me, and it contradicts the last four major religions that were revealed by God: Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Baha’i Faith, so that alone makes such a wimpy God belief suspect.

Thank you for this explanation of the Baha’i faith.

You’re very welcome.

I still think you are making a contradiction here. If God can’t make us understand, then God can’t communicate with us.

True, God could not “successfully” communicate to us if we could not understand that communication so that is why there is no point in God communicating directly to us. God would just be wasting His time, not that God is short on time, since God is not subject to time as we know it.

God does not want to MAKE US understand, which is why God created us with a brain and free will to try to understand by virtue of our own efforts. Also, God wants belief in Him to be a choice, not something that is foisted upon us.

 

[arthra]

Do you think that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world? If you think God should do that, please explain why you think so.
If you think God should not do that, please explain why not. Please explain the reason....

In my view God has already "communicated" to humanity through His Prophets and Messengers. The general result has been the spiritual advancement of humanity and civilization.

All men have been created to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization. The Almighty beareth Me witness: To act like the beasts of the field is unworthy of man. Those virtues that befit his dignity are forbearance, mercy, compassion and loving-kindness towards all the peoples and kindreds of the earth. Say: O friends! Drink your fill from this crystal stream that floweth through the heavenly grace of Him Who is the Lord of Names. Let others partake of its waters in My name, that the leaders of men in every land may fully recognize the purpose for which the Eternal Truth hath been revealed, and the reason for which they themselves have been created.

~ Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 214

 

[Cacotopia]

It would certainly end all the debates here, shut a lot of killling done in other god's names, yada yada yada. Then we can just kill each other for politics and resources.

 

[Vinayaka]

I was just misinformed. I did not know that Gandhi had scriptures.

I do not know much about Gandhi, except for what I saw in the movie. From what I recall, I was very impressed by his upstanding character.

He was Hindu. Hindus have scriptures. How uninformed could a person be?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There can be no direct communication between God and ordinary humans. This is not a curtailment of God’s abilities because it has nothing to do with God’s inability to communicate; it is related to humans’ inability to receive communication directly from God. Our brains are simply not endowed with the capacity to understand God directly. That is one reason God sends Messenger, who have a divine mind, thus the capacity to receive communication from God through the Holy Spirit.

So "Messengers" aren't human?

 

[Trailblazer]

So "Messengers" aren't human?

They are human but they are unlike us because they have a divine mind, so they have the capacity to receive communication from God through the Holy Spirit. No other human has that capacity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They are human but they are unlike us because they have a divine mind, so they have the capacity to receive communication from God through the Holy Spirit. No other human has that capacity.

But God does have the ability to make it so that a human being can receive communication from God?

IOW, when God chooses not to give this ability to humans generally, he had another option available?

 

[Vinayaka]

God can directly communicate with everyone. The problem is that most people don't know that, and are so hooked on somebody else doing it for them, they can't see it for themselves. In other words, they can't think for themselves. If you just sit still but for a moment, God is right there. Hence the addiction to messengers, quoting scripuires, and all that.

 

[Trailblazer]

But God does have the ability to make it so that a human being can receive communication from God?

Not unless God recreated humans with a divine mind.

IOW, when God chooses not to give this ability to humans generally, he had another option available?

Obviously, God has chosen not to give this ability to humans generally because God had a better option...
The option God has chosen to use since the dawn of human history is Messengers.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I do not consider it logical that God has 3 personalities.
I do not consider it logical that there are many gods who can compete and/or cooperate.

I believe that if God exists, God is Omnipotent and Omniscient, so #2 and # 3 cannot be logical possibilities.
Thus there are only two “logical” possibilities:

1. There is One God, or
2. There is no god

Why would omnipotence or omniscience mean there can't be more than one god? If anything, being all-powerful and all-knowing should make it easier for a set of gods to work together.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not unless God recreated humans with a divine mind.

... which you claim God has the ability to do.

Obviously, God has chosen not to give this ability to humans generally because God had a better option...
The option God has chosen to use since the dawn of human history is Messengers.

What makes this option better, considering all of its apparent flaws?

 

[Trailblazer]

He was Hindu. Hindus have scriptures. How uninformed could a person be?

Sure Hindus have scriptures. Baha'is also have scriptures. Christians also have scriptures.

What I meant is that Gandhi did not write the Hindu scriptures, not anymore than a Bahai wrote the Bahai scriptures, and not anymore than a Christian wrote the Christian scriptures.

Having scriptures is not the same as writing scriptures.
Now do you understand why I was confused by what you said originally?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ron L. Hubbard did not have a good character. Even if he had a mission, he did what he did for money; he had a net worth of 600 million when he died. No Messenger of God cares about money! Scientology is not even a religion; it is a movement. I do not know what Hubbard wrote, but he certainly did not write 15,000 Tablets like Baha’u’llah did. Moving right along, Hubbard did not fulfill any Bible prophecies or prophecies from other religions, and he did not make predictions that came to pass. He established what some people consider a religion, but he does not have followers all over the world in almost as any locations as Christianity, as does the Baha’i Faith.

Ask a Scientologist and they'd say that LRH had excellent character and fulfilled many predictions.

And whatever else we might say about him, he was certainly a prolific writer. He's credited with more than 500,000 pages of writing. I'm not sure of the conversion factor between pages and "tablets," but I wouldn't be surprised if LRH's writing output was many times that of Baha'u'llah.

And that's even before we consider his lectures. He has thousands of hours of recorded lectures and talks.

 

[Vinayaka]

Sure Hindus have scriptures. Baha'is also have scriptures. Christians also have scriptures.

What I meant is that Gandhi did not write the Hindu scriptures, not anymore than a Bahai wrote the Bahai scriptures, and not anymore than a Christian wrote the Christian scriptures.

Having scriptures is not the same as writing scriptures.
Now do you understand why I was confused by what you said originally?

Yes I see how you're confused. Saying 'didn't have scriptures' is quite different than 'didn't write scriptures'. If you simply had gone with 'didn't write scriptures' all along, it would have been clear. But it's all par for the course.

 

[Vinayaka]

Ask a Scientologist and they'd say that LRH had excellent character and fulfilled many predictions.

And whatever else we might say about him, he was certainly a prolific writer. He's credited with more than 500,000 pages of writing. I'm not sure of the conversion factor between pages and "tablets," but I wouldn't be surprised if LRH's writing output was many times that of Baha'u'llah.

And that's even before we consider his lectures. He has thousands of hours of recorded lectures and talks.

Quantity does not increase quality, as some of us do know. I've tried reading some of this stuff, and it is, for the most part, gobbledygook repeated many times, to me. I just want to yell, "Get to the point!"

 

[Trailblazer]

God can directly communicate with everyone. The problem is that most people don't know that, and are so hooked on somebody else doing it for them, they can't see it for themselves. In other words, they can't think for themselves. If you just sit still but for a moment, God is right there. Hence the addiction to messengers, quoting scripuires, and all that.

Even if God can communicate directly to our minds, that is not the same as speaking to us through the Holy Spirit such that we can write scriptures and found a religion.

I ask you, what good does it do for humanity if God communicates to individual minds? How does that help humanity as a whole, or does that even matter?

The other thing is this: People can imagine God is speaking to them, but that does not mean God is speaking to them... People can imagine anything but that does not make it real... You could say the same thing about the Messengers, but the salient difference is that they have evidence to back their claims that God spoke to them and we don't have that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Quantity does not increase quality, as some of us do know. I've tried reading some of this stuff, and it is, for the most part, gobbledygook repeated many times, to me. I just want to yell, "Get to the point!"

Oh, I totally agree... though I get the same feeling from the scriptures our Baha'i members post.

But @Trailblazer 's post only spoke to quantity, not quality.