Do you think that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world?

[Trailblazer]

You've said before that if God did a better communicating to us, it would deny our free will. IOW, if the case for God was the slightest bit better, it would be so overwhelmingly convincing that we would be compelled to accept it as true.

That is true, and I just explained in the previous post why God does not want to be overwhelmingly convincing. God does not want us to be “compelled” to believe in Him because it is obvious that He exists. God wants it to be our free choice.

If this is really where we are in terms of the evidence, why do so many people see that evidence as completely lacking and underwhelming?

First, not many people have actually looked at the evidence.

Second, if they do look at the evidence they usually find it wanting, and below I will explain the reasons they find it wanting, which are related to the slow growth of all new religions.

One reason people do not accept the new messenger because he brings new teachings that are diametrically opposed to the status quo, Baha'u'llah was a radical, just as was Jesus a radical to the Jews who were entrenched in their religious traditions. That is why the new messenger is not accepted by those to whom He presented himself initially. But even after that, for centuries, the followers of the older religions cling to their older religions and older messengers as being the only truth from God, making it impossible for them to recognize and accept a new messenger, because they have a bias against anything that is “different” from what they already believe. The rest of the world population is nonbelievers and they already do not like the whole idea of messengers of God or that God should/would communicate that way.

The biggest obstacle to the growth of the Baha’i Faith is the fact that about 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion. So there you have 84% of the world’s population, the vast majority of which are not even willing to consider the Baha’i Faith in order to determine if it is true or not. Then we have the rest of the world’s population who are agnostics or atheists or people who believe in God but dislike any religion...

In short, even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.

Besides that, we are all very different because ofa combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances, so no two people will ever interpret the same evidence the same way.

I know you do not believe that Jesus even existed, but since we are talking about Messengers, it is important to note how patterns of history repeat themselves. What we saw when Jesus appeared on earth and in the early days is exactly what we see today with Baha’u’llah

“When Christ appeared He manifested Himself at Jerusalem. He called men to the Kingdom of God, He invited them to Eternal Life and He told them to acquire human perfections. The Light of Guidance was shed forth by that radiant Star, and He at length gave His life in sacrifice for humanity.​

All through His blessed life He suffered oppression and hardship, and in spite of all this humanity was His enemy!​

They denied Him, scorned Him, ill-treated Him and cursed Him. He was not treated like a man—and yet in spite of all this He was the embodiment of pity and of supreme goodness and love……..​

It was not until many years after His ascension that they knew who He was, and at the time of His ascension He had only a very few disciples; only a comparatively small following believed His precepts and followed His laws. The ignorant said, ‘Who is this individual; He has only a few disciples!’ But those who knew said: ‘He is the Sun who will shine in the East and in the West, He is the Manifestation who shall give life to the world’.​

What the first disciples had seen the world realized later.”
Paris Talks, pp, 116-117​

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, the bottom line is that that Baha’u’llah whatever is a very bad communicator. Getting people confused between all humans are equal vs. humans should be divided in castes, is not a negligible error. I am sure even the official Trump responsible for communication could do a better job.

Baha’u’llah is not a bad communicator just because “some people” cannot understand what He wrote. For those who find it difficult to understand the Writings of Baha’u’llah, they can read the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, who were the appointed interpreters of Baha’u’llah’s Writings.

Baha’u’llah never said that humans should be divided into castes.

I mean, He managed to create the whole Universe, and it fails to transmit a clear cut message to some apes?

People who blame Baha’u’llah because they cannot understand what He wrote are unjust and arrogant. They think they are smarter than He was, that they could do a better job. Why then would they accept Him as a Messenger of God? This is psych 101 stuff.

Baha’u’llah “clearly” explained the requirements for the True Seeker in the Tablet of the True Seeker.In seeking God one must put aside all acquired knowledge and all attachments to what one wants; one must put aside both love and hate; one must wash away both pride and vain-glory; and one must cling to patience.These are “some” of the requirements of the True Seeker.

“O My brother! When a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in the path leading unto the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all else, cleanse his heart, which is the seat of the revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments of satanic fancy. He must purge his breast, which is the sanctuary of the abiding love of the Beloved, of every defilement, and sanctify his soul from all that pertaineth to water and clay, from all shadowy and ephemeral attachments. He must so cleanse his heart that no remnant of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love blindly incline him to error, or that hate repel him away from the truth…..

That seeker must, at all times, put his trust in God, must renounce the peoples of the earth, must detach himself from the world of dust, and cleave unto Him Who is the Lord of Lords. He must never seek to exalt himself above any one, must wash away from the tablet of his heart every trace of pride and vain-glory, must cling unto patience and resignation, observe silence and refrain from idle talk.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 264-265​

The entire Tablet an be read on this link: Tablet of the True Seeker

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Not all of us will figure out the same thing but if we dig deeper we have a better chance of recognizing Baha'u'llah for who He was.

Vinayaka said: Many many people have done just that, and that's why the Baha'i retention rate is so horribly low.

I’d like to see some statistics regarding attrition, not that it matters how many people leave. That says more about them than it says about the Baha’u’llah, unless of course they found something I do not know about when they were digging around in the yard.

People think it all sounds, but as soon as they dig a bit deeper, they just leave. I've read some of his incoherent rambling. It's really something else. Mostly just a ton of self-adulation.

What did they “find” when they dug deeper?

Of course, how many people “leave” or how many people “believe” has absolutely nothing to do with whether Baha’u’llah was actually a Manifestation of God or not. That is all that really matters.

“.... For it is only when the spirit has thoroughly permeated the world that the people will begin to enter the Faith in large numbers. At the beginning of the spring only the few, exceptionally favoured seeds will sprout, but when the season gets in its full sway, and the atmosphere gets permeated with the warmth of true springtime, then masses of flowers will begin to appear, and a whole hillside suddenly blooms. We are still in the state when only isolated souls are awakened, but soon we shall have the full swing of the season and the quickening of whole groups and nations into the spiritual life breathed by Bahá'u'lláh.”
(Letter 18 February 1932, on behalf of Shoghi Effendi)​

I already addressed the self-adulation in a previous post. I suggest you dig a bit deeper before you speak about Baha’u’llah like that. If you can dig up some smut I will be glad to look at it. I would not want to be following a false prophet.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is still no good evidence for the existence of any one god, much less your specific god

There is good evidence for One God, the one revealed by Baha’u’llah.

As you said....beliefs do not create reality.

Correct.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

People can say anything, but it certainly does not look like he had such a great character:
L. Ron Hubbard - Wikipedia

I would be inclined to agree, but from my perspective, Hubbard and Bahá’u’lláh seem pretty well similar: their followers argue that the men were wonderful.

It is not about quantity, it is about quality.

... except for a few posts back, when it was all about quantity.

Besides that, Hubbard never claimed to be a Messenger of God, did he?

I have no doubt that he claimed something like this, but using Scientology terminology.

 

[Vinayaka]

What did they “find” when they dug deeper?

Suffice it to say there are plenty of non-Baha'i (not anti Baha'i, but neutral) sources on line that dispute everything the Baha'i propaganda machine spews out. I went through it all with Tony Bristow Stagg (Anthony BS) or whatever his name is, before, in that very long thread. I'm simply not prepared to do it again. But if you (or anybody curious) wants to google things like 'true Baha'i population' you can. It's easy information to find.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: People can say anything, but it certainly does not look like he had such a great character:
L. Ron Hubbard - Wikipedia

Penguin said: I would be inclined to agree, but from my perspective, Hubbard and Bahá’u’lláh seem pretty well similar: their followers argue that the men were wonderful.

The fact that the followers of BOTH Hubbard and Baha’u’llah say that their men were wonderful in no way makes them the SAME.

What makes them the same or different is who they actually WERE, not what people SAY about them.

Clearly, Baha’u’llah was nothing like Hubbard. For starters, Hubbard was into it for the money, obviously, since he had a net worth of 600 million when he died. By stark contrast, Baha’u’llah came from a wealthy family and He could have been wealthy, had He not given all that up to be a follower of the Bab.

That is just for starters. Many other things are different between these two men.

It is not about quantity, it is about quality.
... except for a few posts back, when it was all about quantity.

It is about BOTH quantity and quality. Quantity is meaningless unless the quantity is of good quality.

Trailblazer said: Besides that, Hubbard never claimed to be a Messenger of God, did he?

Penguin said: I have no doubt that he claimed something like this, but using Scientology terminology.

Maybe he did, but claims do not prove anything. One needs evidence to back up his claims, and Hubbard has jack squat whereas Baha’u’llah has a voluminous amount of evidence to back His claim.

 

[Trailblazer]

Suffice it to say there are plenty of non-Baha'i (not anti Baha'i, but neutral) sources on line that dispute everything the Baha'i propaganda machine spews out. I went through it all with Tony Bristow Stagg (Anthony BS) or whatever his name is, before, in that very long thread. I'm simply not prepared to do it again. But if you (or anybody curious) wants to google things like 'true Baha'i population' you can. It's easy information to find.

I googled 'true Baha'i population' and all I got was the estimated number of Baha'is in the world.
That proves absolutely nothing about the Bahai Faith.

Opinions carry no weight. How some disaffected Baha'is "feel" about the Baha’i Faith carries no weight. If someone could actually prove the Baha’i Faith is false I would be out of here so fast you won't even see my shadow. Do you have some illusion that the life of a Baha’i is an easy life. After I became a Baha’i, I avoided the Baha’i Faith for 42 years because it is anything but easy being a Baha’i, if one takes it seriously.

To discredit the Baha’i Faith, one could start by proving there is any such thing as a "Baha'i propaganda machine." I covered this ground for years with an atheist who owns a forum who claimed that there were non-Baha'i (not anti Baha'i, but neutral) sources that dispute everything the Baha'i propaganda machine spews out, but the funny thing is that he could never produce any of those sources.

I am not asking you to do this as I understand you have already covered that ground. I am just saying what would be "necessary" to prove the Baha'i Faith is false.

 

[Milton Platt]

There is good evidence for One God, the one revealed by Baha’u’llah.

Correct.

If the evidence was actually that good, everyone would have to believe in that god. Not necessarily worship it, but at least acknowledge it's existence.

 

[Trailblazer]

If the evidence was actually that good, everyone would have to believe in that god. Not necessarily worship it, but at least acknowledge it's existence.

No, you are wrong about that because only a few people actually SEE the evidence for what it actually IS.

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”​

Of course, it always helps to LOOK at the evidence and most people have not done so, for various reasons.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103​

 

[Milton Platt]

No, you are wrong about that because only a few people actually SEE the evidence for what it actually IS.

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”​

Of course, it always helps to LOOK at the evidence and most people have not done so, for various reasons.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103​

So where is this evidence you claim exists? And I am not wrong. Incontrovertible evidence would require acknowledgement of it’s existence.

 

[Trailblazer]

So where is this evidence you claim exists? And I am not wrong. Incontrovertible evidence would require acknowledgement of it’s existence.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:

Incontrovertible evidence is a colloquial term for evidence introduced to prove a fact that is supposed to be so conclusive that there can be no other truth to the matter; evidence so strong it overpowers contrary evidence, directing a fact-finder to a specific and certain conclusion.
Incontrovertible evidence - Wikipedia

Incontrovertible evidence is proof. God cannot ever be prove to exist as a fact because God is unknowable. However, if the evidence is good enough we can prove it to ourselves that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

Nobody can “prove” that a Messenger actually received a message from God. Even those who witnessed his revelation streaming in as He wrote it down cannot prove it was coming from God. For obvious reasons, only Baha’u’llah and God knew what happened for certain. If we want to know, we do all the investigation that we can (as noted in the categories below) and then we decide if we are going to believe that Baha’u’llah was telling the Truth about what happened to Him.

The evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a true Messenger from God is as follows:

• What He was like as a person (His character);
• What He did during His mission on earth;
• The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
• The scriptures that He wrote;
• What others have written about Him;
• The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming;
• The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
• The predictions He made that have come to pass;
• The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.

 

[Milton Platt]

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid:
Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:

Incontrovertible evidence is a colloquial term for evidence introduced to prove a fact that is supposed to be so conclusive that there can be no other truth to the matter; evidence so strong it overpowers contrary evidence, directing a fact-finder to a specific and certain conclusion.
Incontrovertible evidence - Wikipedia

Incontrovertible evidence is proof. God cannot ever be prove to exist as a fact because God is unknowable. However, if the evidence is good enough we can prove it to ourselves that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

Nobody can “prove” that a Messenger actually received a message from God. Even those who witnessed his revelation streaming in as He wrote it down cannot prove it was coming from God. For obvious reasons, only Baha’u’llah and God knew what happened for certain. If we want to know, we do all the investigation that we can (as noted in the categories below) and then we decide if we are going to believe that Baha’u’llah was telling the Truth about what happened to Him.

The evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a true Messenger from God is as follows:

• What He was like as a person (His character);
• What He did during His mission on earth;
• The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
• The scriptures that He wrote;
• What others have written about Him;
• The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming;
• The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
• The predictions He made that have come to pass;
• The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.

None of that proves that there is a god. That would be the starting point.

 

[Trailblazer]

None of that proves that there is a god. That would be the starting point.

Nobody can prove there is a God, but once we believe Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God proof is no longer necessary, because a Manifestation of God cannot exist unless there is a God to manifest.

 

[Milton Platt]

Nobody can prove there is a God, but once we believe Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God proof is no longer necessary, because a Manifestation of God cannot exist unless there is a God to manifest.

You are incorrect. You cannot claim something is a manifestation of a god until you demonstrate that the god exists. Once you do that, then you can examine and test if and how it manifests anything.

I could just as easily declare that the universe was created by pixies and then cobble together stories about why it is so.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are incorrect. You cannot claim something is a manifestation of a god until you demonstrate that the god exists. Once you do that, then you can examine and test if and how it manifests anything.

We are not talking about science here. Nobody can objectively prove that God exists. A Manifestation of God can claim that God exists because he got a message from God, and that is the only way we can know that God exists. He is the proof that God exists because He manifests God and brings a message from God.

In short, the Manifestation of God demonstrates that God exists.

 

[Milton Platt]

We are not talking about science here. Nobody can objectively prove that God exists. A Manifestation of God can claim that God exists because he got a message from God, and that is the only way we can know that God exists. He is the proof that God exists because He manifests God and brings a message from God.

In short, the Manifestation of God demonstrates that God exists.

Someone can claim anything. That does not make it true. You must demonstrate that said manifestation is a manifestation of said god. Without being able to demonstrate that such a god exists, you cannot do that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Someone can claim anything. That does not make it true. You must demonstrate that said manifestation is a manifestation of said god. Without being able to demonstrate that such a god exists, you cannot do that.

I can do it without proving God exists first. I have proven to myself that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God. I cannot prove that to anyone else. Everyone has to prove that to themselves by looking at the evidence, if they want to.

 

[Milton Platt]

I can do it without proving God exists first. I have proven to myself that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God. I cannot prove that to anyone else. Everyone has to prove that to themselves by looking at the evidence, if they want to.

If you can’t provide sufficient evidence for the god’s existence, how can you claim that it does? That is irrational.
You think that it does, but you do,not know that it does, because the evidence is lacking. You stated yourself you can’t demonstrate it’s existence. So you are believing in something without sufficient supporting evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you can’t provide sufficient evidence for the god’s existence, how can you claim that it does? That is irrational.
You think that it does, but you do,not know that it does, because the evidence is lacking. You stated yourself you can’t demonstrate it’s existence. So you are believing in something without sufficient supporting evidence.

Baha'u'llah IS the evidence that God exists. Manifestations of God are what God gives us for evidence.
We cannot GET any evidence other than what God gives us. That is irrational.