Do you think that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world?

[Trailblazer]

Why would omnipotence or omniscience mean there can't be more than one god? If anything, being all-powerful and all-knowing should make it easier for a set of gods to work together.

Why would we need a set of gods if there is one God who is omnipotent and omniscient?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The other thing is this: People can imagine God is speaking to them, but that does not mean God is speaking to them... People can imagine anything but that does not make it real... You could say the same thing about the Messengers, but the salient difference is that they have evidence to back their claims that God spoke to them and we don't have that.

So someone like me, who sees no evidence that Baha'u'llah received communication from God, is justified in concluding that he imagined it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why would we need a set of gods if there is one God who is omnipotent and omniscient?

Do you really think that the existence of gods is contingent on what you feel you need?

 

[Trailblazer]

... which you claim God has the ability to do.

God could do that, but God would have to wipe out all humans and start all over.

What makes this option better, considering all of its apparent flaws?

There are no flaws. Messengers have been successful in communicating the message of God to humanity from the dawn of human history. The fact that atheists don't like Messengers is not a flaw.

 

[Vinayaka]

Oh, I totally agree... though I get the same feeling from the scriptures our Baha'i members post.

But @Trailblazer 's post only spoke to quantity, not quality.

Yes of course. The Baha'i' have a 'thing' for such numbers. Let's not get into how 'widespread' the faith is, of how it's growing so fast, lol. Incessant rambling on paper while in a jail cell, repeating self-glorification ad infinitum, isn't exactly scripture, in my view.

 

[Vinayaka]

God could do that, but God would have to wipe out all humans and start all over.

There are no flaws. Messengers have been successful in communicating the message of God to humanity from the dawn of human history. The fact that atheists don't like Messengers is not a flaw.

Infallibility is on it's way, Penguin.

 

[Vinayaka]

I ask you, what good does it do for humanity if God communicates to individual minds? How does that help humanity as a whole, or does that even matter?

It's the molecular theory of social change, evolution of the soul. One person at a time, from within. That's the only real change that ever happens. Externalised Abrahamic faiths are so busy trying to change others, that they can't change themselves for the better. Converting others is more important than sitting still, finding a bit of peace, or actually helping the community.

Baha'i has done nothing for humanity at all.

 

[Trailblazer]

So someone like me, who sees no evidence that Baha'u'llah received communication from God, is justified in concluding that he imagined it?

Sorry, God does not provide curb service.
We were all given a brain to figure things out.
Not all of us will figure out the same thing but if we dig deeper we have a better chance of recognizing Baha'u'llah for who He was.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you really think that the existence of gods is contingent on what you feel you need?

Of course not. There is either One God or not. All the Abrahamic religions point squarely in that direction. Thus it makes sense to me that there is only One God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of course not. There is either One God or not.

... and either two gods or not, and either three gods or not, etc., etc., on into infinity.

All the Abrahamic religions point squarely in that direction. Thus it makes sense to me that there is only One God.

The difference between us, then, is that I don't automatically assume that "it's Abrahamic" implies "it must be correct."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God could do that, but God would have to wipe out all humans and start all over.

How do you figure?

There are no flaws. Messengers have been successful in communicating the message of God to humanity from the dawn of human history.

Except to atheists... who you say God wasn't trying to communicate with anyway.

The fact that atheists don't like Messengers is not a flaw.

I was thinking more of the inherent limitations of hearsay.

But back to the question: you said that communication via messengers is better than direct communication. What makes it better, in your mind?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sorry, God does not provide curb service.
We were all given a brain to figure things out.
Not all of us will figure out the same thing but if we dig deeper we have a better chance of recognizing Baha'u'llah for who He was.

You've said before that if God did a better communicating to us, it would deny our free will. IOW, if the case for God was the slightest bit better, it would be so overwhelmingly convincing that we would be compelled to accept it as true.

If this is really where we are in terms of the evidence, why do so many people see that evidence as completely lacking and underwhelming?

 

[viole]

Baha’u’llah already did that. He communicated to everyone and explained who God was. People can go and read that if they want to know.

No, it does not prove that belief is unreliable; it just proves that everyone is confused. Baha’u’llah explained why so many people are so confused about God.

“What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error. For this reason, in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions.” The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 31-32​

Many people do not seem to understand His Writings so I will explain what that means.

It is because Baha’u’llah has brought a “new” Revelation from God that people are oppressed (confused about God). What happens is that when a “new” Messenger of God comes and releases the Holy Spirit into the world, it revitalizes everything and it causes people to embark upon a search for God. But first they will make a lot of mistakes (the darkness of the night of error) before they finally realize what the Truth is. They will learn from their mistakes and that is how they will be led to the Truth. There are many people doing that right now... The RF forum is proof of that.

I agree that just because a huge amount of people believe in something that does not make it true; that would be the fallacy of argumentum ad populum, appeal to the masses to determine if something is true. The masses are not all that bright.

Actually when it comes to religion, at least when the religion is new, very few people believe in it. But that does not mean it is not true.

Homeopathy is not a good example, because it is still relatively obscure compared to conventional medicine. Not many people use homeopathy but that means nothing, because what people “believe in” is no indication of what is actually true or valuable. Homeopathy saved my life after I landed in the ditch and almost died from conventional psychotropic drugs. After that I got a degree in homeopathy to complement my counseling psychology degree. For personal reasons, my plans to start a practice never got off the ground, but I would swear by homeopathy, at least for what it is able to do for mental-emotional problems... I never used it for physical diseases because I never had any.

As for astrology, I think that there is something to it; it is not just superstition as some people think. My brother is an astrologer so I know something about it.

Well, the bottom line is that that Bah’aullah whatever is a very bad communicator. Getting people confused between all humans are equal vs. humans should be divided in castes, is not a negligible error. I am sure even the official Trump responsible for communication could do a better job.

I mean, He managed to create the whole Universe, and it fails to transmit a clear cut message to some apes?

Really?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Vinayaka]

Sorry, God does not provide curb service.
We were all given a brain to figure things out.
Not all of us will figure out the same thing but if we dig deeper we have a better chance of recognizing Baha'u'llah for who He was.

Many many people have dome just that, and that's why the Baha'i retention rate is so horribly low. People think it all sounds, but as soon as they dig a bit deeper, they just leave. I've read some oh his incoherent rambling. It's really something else. Mostly just a ton of self-adulation.

 

[Milton Platt]

No, I am not assuming that... People believe in many different gods, but that does not mean there are many different gods... Beliefs do not create reality.

The reality is that here is only One God. Why would we need more than one Omnipotent/Omniscient God

There is still no good evidence for the existence of any one god, much less your specific god. As you said....beliefs do not create reality.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ask a Scientologist and they'd say that LRH had excellent character and fulfilled many predictions.

People can say anything, but it certainly does not look like he had such a great character:
L. Ron Hubbard - Wikipedia

And whatever else we might say about him, he was certainly a prolific writer. He's credited with more than 500,000 pages of writing. I'm not sure of the conversion factor between pages and "tablets," but I wouldn't be surprised if LRH's writing output was many times that of Baha'u'llah.

And that's even before we consider his lectures. He has thousands of hours of recorded lectures and talks.

It is not about quantity, it is about quality. Besides that, Hubbard never claimed to be a Messenger of God, did he?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes of course. The Baha'i' have a 'thing' for such numbers. Let's not get into how 'widespread' the faith is, of how it's growing so fast, lol.

Yes, let’s talk about how “widespread” the Baha’i Faith is. It has spread to over 250 countries and territories all over the world and is second only to Christianity in the number of localities in which it is located. That all happened in the first 100 years. Global spread was the goal of the Baha’i Faith administration during the first half of the 20th century, not increasing numbers of adherents.
FOURTH PERIOD: THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMATIVE AGE OF THE BAHÁ’Í FAITH 1921–1944

Incessant rambling on paper while in a jail cell, repeating self-glorification ad infinitum, isn't exactly scripture, in my view.

You can view it any way you want to. Obviously it is not scripture “to you” because you are not a Baha’i.

I do however have to correct your comment on self-glorification. Sure, when Baha’u’llah spoke with the Voice of God He spoke with great authority, but nevertheless He considered Himself utterly self-effaced compared to God.

“Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.​

Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self within such a Court is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence.”
Gleanings, p. 55​

Moreover, what Baha’u’llah did He did for the sake of God, not for Himself.

“Who can ever believe that this Servant of God hath at any time cherished in His heart a desire for any earthly honor or benefit? The Cause associated with His Name is far above the transitory things of this world. Behold Him, an exile, a victim of tyranny, in this Most Great Prison. His enemies have assailed Him on every side, and will continue to do so till the end of His life. Whatever, therefore, He saith unto you is wholly for the sake of God, that haply the peoples of the earth may cleanse their hearts from the stain of evil desire, may rend its veil asunder, and attain unto the knowledge of the one true God—the most exalted station to which any man can aspire. Their belief or disbelief in My Cause can neither profit nor harm Me. We summon them wholly for the sake of God. He, verily, can afford to dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 85​

“Know ye that I am afraid of none except God. In none but Him have I placed My trust; to none will I cleave but Him, and wish for naught except the thing He hath wished for Me. This, indeed, is My heart’s desire, did ye but know it. I have offered up My soul and My body as a sacrifice for God, the Lord of all worlds. Whoso hath known God shall know none but Him, and he that feareth God shall be afraid of no one except Him, though the powers of the whole earth rise up and be arrayed against him. I speak naught except at His bidding, and follow not, through the power of God and His might, except His truth. He, verily, shall recompense the truthful.” Gleanings, p. 126​

“Incline your ears to the counsels which this Servant giveth you for the sake of God. He, verily, asketh no recompense from you and is resigned to what God hath ordained for Him, and is entirely submissive to God’s Will.”
Gleanings, p. 127​

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures. Your evil doings can never harm Us, neither can your good works profit Us. We summon you wholly for the sake of God.To this every man of understanding and insight will testify.” Gleanings, p. 140​

“Walk ye in the fear of God, and render not your works vain. Incline your ears to His words, and be not of them that are shut out as by a veil from Him. Say: God is My witness! I have wished nothing whatever for Myself. What I have wished is the victory of God and the triumph of His Cause. He is Himself a sufficient witness between you and Me. Were ye to cleanse your eyes, ye would readily perceive how My deeds testify to the truth of My words, how My words are a guide to My deeds.” Gleanings, pp. 256-257​

Of course, anyone can write anything they want to, but if Baha’u’llah’s deeds had not testified to what He wrote, I would have left the Baha’i Faith a long, long time ago.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's the molecular theory of social change, evolution of the soul. One person at a time, from within. That's the only real change that ever happens.

That is true, and Shoghi Effendi said that, in so many words:

“Not by the force of numbers, not by the mere exposition of a set of new and noble principles, not by an organized campaign of teaching—no matter how worldwide and elaborate in its character—not even by the staunchness of our faith or the exaltation of our enthusiasm, can we ultimately hope to vindicate in the eyes of a critical and sceptical age the supreme claim of the Abhá Revelation. One thing and only one thing will unfailingly and alone secure the undoubted triumph of this sacred Cause, namely, the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth in their manifold aspects the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Bahá’u’lláh.” Bahá’í Administration, p. 66​

As Baha’is we believe we have the teachings of Baha’u’llah that help us improve our own inner life and private character.

“Our past is not the thing that matters so much in this world as what we intend to do with our future. The inestimable value of religion is that when a man is vitally connected with it, through a real and living belief in it and in the Prophet Who brought it, he receives a strength greater than his own which helps him to develop his good characteristics and overcome his bad ones. The whole purpose of religion is to change not only our thoughts but our acts; when we believe in God and His Prophet and His Teachings, we find we are growing, even though we perhaps thought ourselves incapable of growth and change!”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 3, 1943)
​

We each try to follow those teachings to the best of our ability but we are not perfect. Personally, I think that if the Baha’is collectively spent more time working on their inner life and private character and less time on “organizational Baha’i activities” the Baha’i Faith would have grown a lot more than it has by now. However, I am nobody’s judge so this is just an opinion.

Externalised Abrahamic faiths are so busy trying to change others, that they can't change themselves for the better. Converting others is more important than sitting still, finding a bit of peace, or actually helping the community.

I do not see people of Abrahamic faiths trying to change other people or trying to convert others. “Sharing” what we believe is not an attempt to convert, but of course we have already been around that block too many times, so I do not care to discuss it any further.

Baha'i has done nothing for humanity at all.

I would not exactly say it has done “nothing at all.” If you knew what the Baha’i are doing all over the world you would not say that. However, they can only do what they can do with such small numbers.

No logical person would expect a religion that is only .1% of the world population to do “as much” as the older religions that are much larger...
These religions claim the largest share of the world population:

• Christianity 32.8
• Islam 22.5
• Hinduism 13.8
• Buddhism 8.0

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

I know for a fact that Christians do a lot for humanity, but I do not know what the others are doing. I am not saying they are not doing anything, I just don’t know what.

It has only been 155 years since Baha’u’llah declared His Mission. Most people have rejected Baha’u’llah mostly because their religious leaders rejected Him. Then there were the many Covenant-breakers. So the Faith got off to a slow start, but it will catch on eventually.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes ofall who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248​

You are not required to believe that but I believe it, but of course that’s because I am a Baha’i and I believe Baha’u’llah was infallible.

 

[Trailblazer]

... and either two gods or not, and either three gods or not, etc., etc., on into infinity.

You could keep guessing ad infinitum or you could look at all the evidence for One God.

The difference between us, then, is that I don't automatically assume that "it's Abrahamic" implies "it must be correct."

I did not expect YOU to assume Abrahamic is correct just because I do. I said “All the Abrahamic religions point squarely in that direction. Thus it makes sense to me that there is only One God.”

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you figure?

We are what we are. If God was going create humans with a divine mind, He would have to go back and start from scratch. God is not just going to wave a magic wand and make us all have a divine mind.

Except to atheists... who you say God wasn't trying to communicate with anyway.

Why should God change His time-honored Method of communication because less than 7% of the world population don’t like Messengers?

I was thinking more of the inherent limitations of hearsay.

But back to the question: you said that communication via messengers is better than direct communication. What makes it better, in your mind?

It is better because God chose it and God knows what is better.

This poster said it better than I can:

Do you think that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world?

I'll go with 'No' saying we are not smarter than God and if that was actually better, then that is how it would be.
#36 George-ananda, Saturday at 4:59 PM

I liked this poster’s response too.

Do you think that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world?

No, never. God should never force his presence to anyone.
#71 syo, Sunday at 12:58 PM

By using Messengers and allowing is to choose whether to believe in them or not, God does not force His presence upon us as would be the case if God communicated directly with everyone. Mind you, I know a few atheists who have no interest in hearing from God as they are happy just the way they are. But if they change their minds and want to hear from God, they can go and read what Baha’u’llah wrote: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

To add to that, and just thinking logically, how reasonable would it be for God to communicate the more than 15,000 Tablets that He communicated to Baha’u’llah to each and every one of the 7.44 billion people in the world? Why is that necessary when God can communicate to one Messenger who can make that information available to everyone in the world? The only reason I can think of why people even havesuggest such a ridiculous idea is because they cannot “trust” a Messenger to really be speaking for God; but that is the homework assignment God gave to all of us, to determine if Baha’u’llah was a true or false Messenger.