Do you think this points to the body having a spirit that goes beyond death?

[Clear]

@Deeje said : “….there is more than one way to translate and interpret scripture....there can only be one right one. Time will tell.” (post #136)


While the “there can only be one right one” is an incorrect and naïve statement, the irony is that despite your statement, you are often using incorrect translations and incorrect assumptions to support your theological theories.

Remember, the religion of the ancient Christian movement did not have the same doctrines or beliefs as your modern religious movement and they did not use your faulty english translation of their scriptures in their early religion.

For example, you used an incorrect translation english version of Psalms 146:4-5 to support your modern religious theory. You quote the verse as telling us that all "thoughts" cease (gk …απολουνται παντεσ οι διαλογισμοι αυτου…), but in fact LXX Psalms 146:4-5 of early Christianity does NOT say us “thoughts” perish and there is no greek base version that says thoughts cease at death.

The translation of διαλογισμοι as “thoughts” is incorrect You will notice that many english versions have attempted to correct this mistake. For example, Doug Moo and his group also noticed this mistake in psalms 146, and render the greek as “plans” in the NIV. That is, when the spirit departs the body upon death, any “plans” made during life come to nothing is their revision.

The word Διαλογιζομoι (Dialogizomoi) is related to the English word dialogue and exhaustive treatments of the word by early Koine linguists, showed that it was, anciently, never given the discrete meaning of “thought” (i.e. “cogitation”) in any Koine text found up to the 19th century, but instead has judicial usage as its base historical context.

For example, in P Ryl II. 74 (133 a.d.) it is used in it’s typical meaning of holding a discussion and examination upon a subject. It meant holding "court" of some type (whether one is making his own judgment or an official court judgment).

In P Oxy. III. 484:24 (138 a.d.) "...the praefect Avidius Heliodorus holds his auspicious court…”, διαλογιζηται was used for “court” or “examination” of a premise.

In Vettius Valens p. 245:26 it is used to mean “discuss” or “examine” which also was part of the process of considering through dialogue and coming to a decision (a judgment).

The common relationship in all of its uses in such ancient literature was that it referred to an examination of a premise which undergoes “deliberation” or “questioning” in the process of coming to a decision or judgment. Thus, when the word is used in James 2:4 the translation is, again, faulty. It is not “evil thoughts” (KJV) that the judges are guilty of, but rather, the judges are guilty of making corrupt and "evil decisions” and "corrupt judgments”.

My point in this post is that Psalms 146:4-5 does NOT tell us that “thoughts perish”. The concept of deliberations and further interactions and discussions and plans for mortality ceasing can certainly be argued, but the term does not refer to simple "thought" or "cognition".

Regarding the early Judeo-Doctrine (that an intelligent, cognizant, spirit exists in each of mankind and that spirit separates from the body at death), @Brian2 represents early Jewish and early Christian religion on this specific point. Why would your more modern religious theory and your interpretations of faulty english texts take priority over the more original Judeo-Christian religion with its doctrines and its different interpretations of its more original texts?

Clear
τωτζδρφιω

 

[YoursTrue]

That is avoiding the point I was making about the death of the body not being the death of the soul. If you say that a person is still alive in the memory of God and so the soul is not killed, then that means that nobody can really kill our body since God remembers it. The JW doctrine of death is complete obliteration of the person, everything dies.

Let me see if I can explain it this way: sometimes when a person dies, their loved ones remember them well. And in kindness. They miss them. They may think they're in heaven, but they still miss them. Jesus said that God knows even the hairs of our heads are numbered. Thus, He can remember every little detail about a person. Everything. There is not a detail that God is not aware of. We, as human beings, certainly cannot count the hairs of everyone's head. We certainly do not know every physical biological feature of everything and everyone. But God does. What does that all mean? That God can resurrect the dead. He can bring them back to life. Thus they can be in His memory. The force of life or breath that God enables in the living, when they die, that force symbolically goes back to Him.

 

[YoursTrue]

@Deeje said : “….there is more than one way to translate and interpret scripture....there can only be one right one. Time will tell.” (post #136)


While the “there can only be one right one” is an incorrect and naïve statement, the irony is that despite your statement, you are often using incorrect translations and incorrect assumptions to support your theological theories.

Remember, the religion of the ancient Christian movement did not have the same doctrines or beliefs as your modern religious movement and they did not use your faulty english translation of their scriptures in their early religion.

For example, you used an incorrect translation english version of Psalms 146:4-5 to support your modern religious theory. You quote the verse as telling us that all "thoughts" cease (gk …απολουνται παντεσ οι διαλογισμοι αυτου…), but in fact LXX Psalms 146:4-5 of early Christianity does NOT say us “thoughts” perish and there is no greek base version that says thoughts cease at death.

The translation of διαλογισμοι as “thoughts” is incorrect You will notice that many english versions have attempted to correct this mistake. For example, Doug Moo and his group also noticed this mistake in psalms 146, and render the greek as “plans” in the NIV. That is, when the spirit departs the body upon death, any “plans” made during life come to nothing is their revision.

The word Διαλογιζομoι (Dialogizomoi) is related to the English word dialogue and exhaustive treatments of the word by early Koine linguists, showed that it was, anciently, never given the discrete meaning of “thought” (i.e. “cogitation”) in any Koine text found up to the 19th century, but instead has judicial usage as its base historical context.

For example, in P Ryl II. 74 (133 a.d.) it is used in it’s typical meaning of holding a discussion and examination upon a subject. It meant holding "court" of some type (whether one is making his own judgment or an official court judgment).

In P Oxy. III. 484:24 (138 a.d.) "...the praefect Avidius Heliodorus holds his auspicious court…”, διαλογιζηται was used for “court” or “examination” of a premise.

In Vettius Valens p. 245:26 it is used to mean “discuss” or “examine” which also was part of the process of considering through dialogue and coming to a decision (a judgment).

The common relationship in all of its uses in such ancient literature was that it referred to an examination of a premise which undergoes “deliberation” or “questioning” in the process of coming to a decision or judgment. Thus, when the word is used in James 2:4 the translation is, again, faulty. It is not “evil thoughts” (KJV) that the judges are guilty of, but rather, the judges are guilty of making corrupt and "evil decisions” and "corrupt judgments”.

My point in this post is that Psalms 146:4-5 does NOT tell us that “thoughts perish”. The concept of deliberations and further interactions and discussions and plans for mortality ceasing can certainly be argued, but the term does not refer to simple "thought" or "cognition".

Regarding the early Judeo-Doctrine (that an intelligent, cognizant, spirit exists in each of mankind and that spirit separates from the body at death), @Brian2 represents early Jewish and early Christian religion on this specific point. Why would your more modern religious theory and your interpretations of faulty english texts take priority over the more original Judeo-Christian religion with its doctrines and its different interpretations of its more original texts?

Clear
τωτζδρφιω

As a note, some people believe the spirits of the dead haunt, let's say, a house, or that a person can sense a spirit, or ghost. I have come to understand that the demons want to confuse a person into thinking they are a dead person. But the demons are alive, they're not dead. The original serpent, the Devil, did tell Eve that she would not die. And she believed him.

 

[LightofTruth]

For those who keep God's laws and commandments during their lifetime, a resurrection to life is promised because they were judged worthy of everlasting life by their actions. For those who died without knowing God or his laws, a resurrection for them will be one of judgment. They will have 1,000 years to prove themselves worthy.....if not, they will forfeit the gift of life.
That is my understanding.

That sounds like nonsense to me. Where are all the people who have died without knowing God going to live?

It's estimated that there are 7.8 billion people living today. and it's estimated that over 100 billion people have already lived.

Have you heard the parable of the net? When a fisherman throws his net into the ocean he is not throwing it into the entire ocean but only to gather what his net will support.

 

[Brian2]

Let me see if I can explain it this way: sometimes when a person dies, their loved ones remember them well. And in kindness. They miss them. They may think they're in heaven, but they still miss them. Jesus said that God knows even the hairs of our heads are numbered. Thus, He can remember every little detail about a person. Everything. There is not a detail that God is not aware of. We, as human beings, certainly cannot count the hairs of everyone's head. We certainly do not know every physical biological feature of everything and everyone. But God does. What does that all mean? That God can resurrect the dead. He can bring them back to life. Thus they can be in His memory. The force of life or breath that God enables in the living, when they die, that force symbolically goes back to Him.

If God recreated a person that would be making a copy of that person and would not be a resurrection of the person. The copy may even think that it is that person but would not be that person unless the spirit part of the person, the essence of who they are, their soul, exists and goes from the old to the new body. This soul does exist after the death of the body, as Jesus tells us in Matt 10:28.

 

[Clear]

If God recreated a person that would be making a copy of that person and would not be a resurrection of the person. The copy may even think that it is that person but would not be that person unless the spirit part of the person, the essence of who they are, their soul, exists and goes from the old to the new body. This soul does exist after the death of the body, as Jesus tells us in Matt 10:28.

Good job @Brian2

This has been one of the problems with the claim that a person is annihilated at death, but then is somehow saved.

If the original personality is truly annihilated, the original personality CANNOT be saved since they no longer exists. If a second personality is created, having the same characteristics and memories, then this is still another personality and, instead, is a the "copy" or "clone" of the original that is being saved. This is not salvation for the original personality.

I think the theory of creating a clone of the original and saving THAT clone, instead of the original is a silly theory. I believe the early Christian doctrine where, upon death, the spirit separates from the body and is later resurrected and saved is much more rational and logical than this later theory of "saving a clone, rather than the original" personality.

Clear
τωεισετζω

 

[Brian2]

....but according to Solomon, the life and spirit we all have in common, ceases at death....when we return to the dust. Animals and humans die the same death. They cease breathing.

At the death of the body the bodily life goes but the spirit part, the soul is not killed then. What is the soul in Matt 10:28?

Sleeping in death is no chore.....

You are right when you say that they don't know what is happening on earth, but that does not mean that they do not have torment in their soul from what they did in their lives and in waiting to see what it at the end of their wait. In truth however we don't know the exact consciousness of the dead. However scripture nowhere tells us that the dead do not exist,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,quite the opposite position is given even if JWs and others want to read stuff into passages when that stuff is not there.

......I just have a different understanding about what constitutes "spirit".

If you believe that the breathe God breathed into Adam was just air and did not include a spirit then from memory the JWs must have changed their beliefs or maybe you are a JW heretic and need to be reeducated. Also you would disagree with the Bible as to what a human is.

The spirit is not conscious, as the Bible says, 'all thought processes cease at death'. Do spirits need to think?

If you refer to Psalm 146 it does make better sense as "plans". It is not teaching about the condition of the dead but about why we should not put our trust in princes (and their plans).

Our spirit knows our mind and is communicated to by God (1Cor 2:11, Romans 8:16) and other things I have not time to look up. Of course our brain does thinking also but it is our spirit that looks at the thinking and decides what to do.

A soul is the living breathing creature....a great many of whom are animals are also described as "souls" animated by the same spirit (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20).....so how do you understand that if it is applied to animals? Where does their spirit go? Will animals be in heaven? It is the life of humans that is going to be restored....where will they live? Right back here on earth for the majority, because this is where God designed us to live.

In Eccles 3:19-21 it tells us what we all know and can see with our eyes. That animals and humans breathe and die and return to dust. In that way animals and humans have the same fate. Then it goes on to ask about what we cannot see with our eyes, the fate of the spirit of the human or animal. Then it reaches a conclusion about what this meant for how we should live in verse 22. It is not really telling us about the nature of animals compared to humans but even so it does tell us that we have a spirit in us which departs at the death of the body.

The Hebrew word neʹphesh, ("soul") is interchangeable with the word "life". So the widow's son had his "life" restored. God gave him back his breath.

So "soul" has more meanings than what we can get out of the creation of Adam story in Genesis. You accept that "soul" can mean life. My question is, if you see that "soul" has multiple meanings, why do you disregard the meaning that says it is an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death?
But I guess if you disregard Matt 10:28 then why would you accept a Lexical meaning.
But don't get my wrong, I'm not saying that the soul cannot die.

None of those verses speak of a conscious part of us that departs from the body at death.

The inner person is the one God sees....past what is on the surface, to the "innermost thoughts and intentions of the heart".

That sounds like a definition of "soul" in the Lexicon. G5590 - psychē - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

Hebrews 4:12-13...

The power of God's word is a divider of men. It searches deep within a person to discern the spirit (heart intentions) from the flesh (our carnal desires). We can hide nothing of ourselves from the God who searches through us.

True. Many say that the soul and spirit are different and they are probably right, they can be divided.
G4151 - pneuma - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

Some people think of the soul and the spirit as interchangeable terms for the same thing....scripturally, they are not.

True, yet for my minimal brain power they overlap enough to see them in the same light. I see the inner soul of man as what develops from the original life (spirit) which God gives, and which becomes the essence of a particular person.
Job 32:8 ESV
But it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.
Proverbs 20:27 ESV
The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, searching all his innermost parts.
Zechariah 12:1 ESV
The burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus declares the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:
1 Corinthians 2:11 ESV
For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

The spirit does appear to be more than what you seem to think it is, whatever that is.

Luke 16:19-31 ESV
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...

The place of the dead (their spiritual souls) seems to have been a real place in the ears of the people Jesus was speaking to.

Romans 8:16 is the acknowledgement of God's anointing of those who will join Christ in heaven.
His spirit gives them a deep spiritual connection to him as those who will be granted spiritual life in heaven as 'kings and priests' in his Kingdom. This anointing is not given to all however.

The verse tells us that we have a spirit that God can commune with.
You believe you are a child of God (Our Father in heaven.....) and that is what the passage is speaking about.
The Bible is more inclusive than the JW organisation.
1John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves the one born of Him
Is this deep spiritual connection similar to the "burning in the bosom" which would be Mormons are said to get when they read the Book of Mormon and ask God if it is true?
It is sad for you and other JWs that most of the New Testament does not apply to you. What makes it sadder is that the doctrine you speak of comes from the ideas of a few men and is not really in the Bible and changes the gospel message, etc.
Here is another part of Romans 8 which seems to be speaking about anyone in whom the Spirit of God does not live. (that word live is an interesting word also)

Romans 8:8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you..........................................................................14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
Sounds like it is referring to anyone doesn't it.

Belief in life after death is a hard idea to put down because we are created to live forever. That "forever" was supposed to be right here on earth, but Adam ruined that for us. We inherited death as a result of his disobedience.....God promised to restore what Adam lost through our redeemer Jesus Christ who paid the price to release us from the grip of sin and take us back to what God purposed in the beginning. There was no heaven or hell in God's first purpose...God's taking a chosen few to heaven to rule with Christ in his Kingdom has been blown out of all proportion by Christendom who have the mistaken notion that they are all heaven bound except the ones whom God consigns to a burning hell forever......that was never even in the picture....nothing even close to it.
You are free to believe as you wish but there is more than one way to translate and interpret scripture....there can only be one right one. Time will tell.

From discussion with people there are many ways to interpret the Bible, depending on who you want to trust as your teacher and the preconceived ideas you bring to the Bible.
But certainly more go into the Kingdom than the 144000 anointed. Jesus speaks of Old Testament saints in the Kingdom. (Luke 13:28) And when the resurrected have their immortal and incorruptible bodies, they could go to heaven without fear of damage I'm use,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and in fact Revelation pictures the great crowd in heaven, as you would know. That's one of the passages of scripture that you have to learn the JW answer for to explain it away.
But yes the Bible does tell us that God will come to earth and be with His people here and be in Zion forever. So we all end up on earth in the end.

 

[Brian2]

My goodness, that’s scraping the barrel! Actually, 1914 was the only date about the end, but I said that one.

And 1975, was not a definitive date, the brothers were counseled to take a "wait and see" approach.

I heard that many left because of 1975. Since then the definition of "generation" has changed so that Jesus could appear in 100 years from now and it would still be the same generation that saw 1914. But I guess people will start waking up more as time goes on.

Regarding a genuine prophet 'saying wrong things'....is that possible?
Well, the Bible gives us an account, at 1 Chronicles 17:1-4. Nathan gave David wrong information. Was it held against him? No, it wasn't. Nathan was just eager and zealous for Jehovah's will to be done. And Jehovah God appreciated that....Nathan was still used as a prophet!

Maybe the Watch Tower does not want to be seen as a prophet and therefore as a false prophet. That's fine, but really they should have eased up on how they worded their interpretation of prophecy.
Nathan gave the things that God told him to say all along. It was God who changed the plans. Nathan got nothing wrong.

Same with Jehovah's people today. And, through humility and honesty, they are willing to change their understanding on Biblical doctrine as the "light gets brighter." Proverbs 4:18.

Maybe you would like to think that, but the light that the JWs taught years ago was not really light, it was darkness and it certainly shows that the Watch Tower is not the faithful and discreet servant who feeds the flock the right food at the right time.

 

[Clear]

The ancient Jews and Christians BOTH believed in an afterlife and existence of a cognisant spirit after death. The early Judeo-Christian literature is full of references to and descriptions of the world of spirits. Anciently, literature from both religions, both Jewish and Christians, assumed that a spirit existed in all of mankind which animated and gave intelligence and emotions to the body it inhabited and, they interpreted their scriptures from this doctrinal standpoint.

For example, even the talmud contains many, many wonderful stories of the cognisant spirits of mankind and their interactions and communications. Other literature of the Talmudic period provide many examples of the body and soul [i.e. spirit] in partnership. “Just as the Holy One of Blessing fills the world, so does the soul [neshamah] fill the body. Just as the Holy One of Blessing sees but cannot be seen, so does the soul see but cannot be seen… Just as the Holy One of Blessing is pure, so is the soul pure” (Berakhot 10a).

In Midrash Leviticus Rabbah, we read that the soul is a guest in the body (which it directs).

The Talmud itself provides MANY wonderful anecdotes which are applicable in multiple levels. For example, from the tractate Sanhedrin: The Emperor Antoninus tries to convince Rabbi Yehudah Hanasi that the body and soul can each excuse themselves from sin by claiming that the transgression is the fault of the other, since without its counterpart, it is lifeless.
R. Yehudah disputes this with a parable that is also a model of the relationship of the spirit and body. "Two guards–one blind and one lame–are in a garden. Together, they are able to steal some fruit from a high tree. When caught, each claims that he is obviously unable to commit the crime due to his disability. In the end, the orchard owner places the lame man on the back of the blind man, and they are judged as one" (91b). Similarly, God judges the actions of the body and spirit in partnership after returning the spirit to the body at resurrection.

Many Talmudic Rabbis taught that the spirit both exists separately from the body, and the spirit also exists in a fully conscious state in an ethereal realm (Ketubbot 77b, Berakhot 18b-19a, and elsewhere). For example :

When Hillel the Elder would cease from [teaching] his students, he would walk, and they would walk with him. Said his disciples to him: "Master, where are you going?" Said he to them: "I am going to do a kindness to a guest in my home." Said they to him: "Every day you have a guest?" Said he to them: "Is this poor soul not a guest in the body? Today she is here, tomorrow she is not..."

The context of this story is that Hillel would say this same thing each day ("I am going to do a kindness to a guest in my home"), as he walked with his disciples, and this is why his disciples asked "Every day you have a guest?". He had always been referring to his spirit inside his body. Perhaps he was simply going to go home to have a nap and refresh his spirit - (In early Jewish worldviews, sleep was a time of refreshment for the spirit as well as the body....) Midrash Rabbah, Vayikra 34 / leviticus Rabbah 34:3

I might as well point out that sleep was not a time of mental inactivity but was viewed as a time of revelation from God through dreams and symbolism just as it was in Christianity.

Let me know if other examples are needed. There are many, many, examples in the early Judeo-Christian literature that describes the early doctrines where a spirit exists in each of mankind and that, upon death, the intelligent, cognizant spirit separates from the dead body and, at some point, returns to God, while the body returns to the earth from which it is made.

I've not seen a single example where modern Christian movements, with their different scriptures and their different doctrines and theories are as logical and as rational as the early Judeo-Christian doctrines with their texts and their different interpretations of their scriptures on this subject of a spirit existing within mankind.

Clear
τωτωτζσεω

 

[Deeje]

That sounds like nonsense to me. Where are all the people who have died without knowing God going to live?

It's estimated that there are 7.8 billion people living today. and it's estimated that over 100 billion people have already lived.

If you understand that the final cleansing of this earth means the removal of the majority of people alive at that time, having been judged as unworthy to retain life, (as indicated by Jesus in Matthew 7:13-14 and in Revelation 14:14-20 ).....as you said, all the people who have ever lived and died would be a roughly equivalent number. Add to that the land areas which are now uninhabitable deserts, will be transformed into paradise conditions (Isaiah 35).....the earth was designed to be inhabited....all of it. Humans were told to “fill the earth”...not overfill it. God will determine how many humans will comfortably “fill” his earth.

Have you heard the parable of the net? When a fisherman throws his net into the ocean he is not throwing it into the entire ocean but only to gather what his net will support.

The witnessing done by Jesus’ disciples was to be done “in all the inhabited earth” (Matthew 24:14) so who is Jesus’ missing here?

The dragnet catches many fish, indicating that many may be attracted to the Christian message....but on inspecting the catch, the fisherman throws out those he finds “unsuitable”. Not all who come to Christ are serving their Master with a complete heart....they are not included in the final count.

That is what scripture indicates to us....

 

[Deeje]

While the “there can only be one right one” is an incorrect and naïve statement, the irony is that despite your statement, you are often using incorrect translations and incorrect assumptions to support your theological theories.

In whose opinion? How many incorrect assumptions and theories are you holding? Who told you that your own assumptions about translation are the right ones? We choose what to believe and who to believe.....no one can blame anyone but themselves if they choose the wrong “truth”. It means that their heart is leading them in a certain direction....there are only two....right and wrong....true and false.

Only God can guide people in whom he finds a receptive heart, to the truth (John 6:44; 65)......it’s up to God who is the revealer of truth, to give the correct understanding to those HE deems worthy. He knows us better than we know ourselves. Those deluded into believing what is false are allowed to keep their delusion and to even argue about it. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) We will all know at the end, who lives and who doesn’t.

Remember, the religion of the ancient Christian movement did not have the same doctrines or beliefs as your modern religious movement and they did not use your faulty english translation of their scriptures in their early religion.

I think the one really important point in all of this is the elephant in the room.....the great apostasy that was to corrupt Christianity in much the same way that it corrupted Judaism.

I see Christendom, including all her scholars and biased translations to be a product of that apostasy and that history has proven that the “weeds” of Jesus parable are who we see arguing about Jesus’ teachings....dividing and dividing again, carving up God’s word and Jesus’ teachings, pretending that Christ is somehow in that rabble.....sorry, but his words at the judgment (Matthew 7:21-23) apply to all those who think that he ever was in Christendom.

The “wheat” at harvest time did not resemble the “weeds” at all....so we are to discern the very obvious differences....not the similarities.

That is the way we understand scripture......everyone is free to believe as they wish.

 

[Deeje]

At the death of the body the bodily life goes but the spirit part, the soul is not killed then. What is the soul in Matt 10:28?

The soul is not the spirit....you are interchanging them again. The soul is the living, breathing organism....both humans and animals, are both animated by the same spirit. Both die the same death when breathing stops.

“Soul” is synonymous with “life” because they have breath in their lungs and blood in their veins....life is life.
So what is “destroyed” in Gehenna is life. This is the place pictured by the “lake of fire” in Revelation.....it is called “the second death” because the first death (Adamic death inherited fro our first father) can lead to a resurrection. It is not permanent.

You are right when you say that they don't know what is happening on earth, but that does not mean that they do not have torment in their soul from what they did in their lives and in waiting to see what it at the end of their wait. In truth however we don't know the exact consciousness of the dead. However scripture nowhere tells us that the dead do not exist,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,quite the opposite position is given even if JWs and others want to read stuff into passages when that stuff is not there.

When God led Israel out of Egypt, he did not put "heaven or hell" as the result of their choices....he put "life and death" before them because that is the only choice they had. (Deuteronomy 30:19-20)
No one is waiting anywhere in a conscious state. All sleep and all are called from the same place. (John 5:28-29) Where was Lazarus before Jesus resurrected him? (John 11:11-14)

The dead are living only to God because only God can restore their lives. Their "spirit returns to God" because only he can give life back to them. That is what resurrection means...a return to life in a body. (There are two kinds of bodies. 1 Corinthians 15:42-49. All who are chosen to rule with Christ in heaven are 'raised first' and these alone are given a spiritual body so as to be able to exist in God's presence.) Not all Christians are heaven bound though, the ones who receive a spiritual resurrection are chosen by God for their role as 'kings and priests'. (Revelation 20:6)
Their subjects will live on earth where God put us in the first place. This is where we were meant to live forever.

If you believe that the breathe God breathed into Adam was just air and did not include a spirit then from memory the JWs must have changed their beliefs or maybe you are a JW heretic and need to be reeducated. Also you would disagree with the Bible as to what a human is.

You misunderstand because your indoctrination will not allow you to see past what you want to believe. The breath (spirit) that God gave Adam ignited the every cell in his body. He went from a dead body to a living soul because God began his life, which is perpetuated by breathing. Where there is no breath, a soul is dead. The dead are dead.....why must they live on somewhere? Who said? Isn't God's promise of a resurrection enough?

If you refer to Psalm 146 it does make better sense as "plans". It is not teaching about the condition of the dead but about why we should not put our trust in princes (and their plans).

You need a functioning brain to make plans and a functioning body to carry them out. Death takes away both....

Ecclesiastes 9:5,10...
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going." (ESV)

With what part of this scripture does the rest of scripture disagree? I can find none. Though I find a lot of misinterpretation.

We know that we all die because of what Adam did. (Romans 5:12) At death, there is no more reward (or "wages" as in earning a living through work) and no one will remember any of them in a few generations....so whatever we can do in this life ("under the sun"...the only one we have) do it with all your might because there is no work, thought, knowledge or wisdom in "sheol" which is the common grave of all mankind.....we all go there.

 

[Deeje]

Our spirit knows our mind and is communicated to by God (1Cor 2:11, Romans 8:16) and other things I have not time to look up. Of course our brain does thinking also but it is our spirit that looks at the thinking and decides what to do.

Our spirit is not our soul. When the soul dies the spirit "goes out"...not as a separate entity that leaves the body to exist elsewhere...but it "goes out" like a light or a candle "goes out". It is extinguished.
The scriptures you cite are colored by your pre-conceived ideas about the soul and spirit which you constantly interchange. They are completely different words with very different meanings.

In Eccles 3:19-21 it tells us what we all know and can see with our eyes. That animals and humans breathe and die and return to dust. In that way animals and humans have the same fate. Then it goes on to ask about what we cannot see with our eyes, the fate of the spirit of the human or animal. Then it reaches a conclusion about what this meant for how we should live in verse 22. It is not really telling us about the nature of animals compared to humans but even so it does tell us that we have a spirit in us which departs at the death of the body.

Solomon was very clear in his statements. The souls are dead, regardless of what kind of soul it is...humans and animals die the same death because "they have but one spirit"...the breath that animates them.
Verse 22 of Ecclesiastes 3 says...
"So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?" (ESV)

We have no idea what comes after us because we are dead.....not conscious of anything. We know nothing, see nothing, and feel nothing. You can't seem to see what is right in front of you.....because you don't want it to be true. You want to believe that some part of you lives on.....that is not what God told Adam.

So "soul" has more meanings than what we can get out of the creation of Adam story in Genesis. You accept that "soul" can mean life. My question is, if you see that "soul" has multiple meanings, why do you disregard the meaning that says it is an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death?
But I guess if you disregard Matt 10:28 then why would you accept a Lexical meaning.
But don't get my wrong, I'm not saying that the soul cannot die.

Ezekiel 18:4 comes out and point blank states it....
"Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die." Souls die. How is Ezekiel not backing up what Solomon said? Both of these men were guided by God's spirit, were they not?

It is sad for you and other JWs that most of the New Testament does not apply to you. What makes it sadder is that the doctrine you speak of comes from the ideas of a few men and is not really in the Bible and changes the gospel message, etc.
Here is another part of Romans 8 which seems to be speaking about anyone in whom the Spirit of God does not live. (that word live is an interesting word also)

Well, you see, we understand that everyone benefits from the rule of God's Kingdom. The fact that we don't feel sad or 'cheated' about where Jehovah places in the big scheme of things indicates to us that we have the correct understanding. We are all 'one flock under one shepherd' whether we are used in a heavenly capacity or an earthly one. God chooses the ones who will reign with Christ, its not something you can volunteer for...we have no say in that.

I have no desire to go to heaven because that requires an anointing from God. I have no anointing for a heavenly assignment, but am more than delighted to be ruled by those whom God has chosen.....it means that there will be no duds or failures.The Kingdom's rule will bring us all back to the beginning. What we lost in Eden will be returned to us.

 

[Deeje]

Romans 8:8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you..........................................................................14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
Sounds like it is referring to anyone doesn't it.

It is of benefit to understand that the Christian scriptures are written by and for those who will rule with Christ in heaven....so yes, it refers to all of 'them'...but not to all of 'us'.

If you look at Revelation 7: 4, you will see a finite number who are said (in Revelation 14:1-4) to be redeemed from among mankind as "firstfruits" (in an agricultural society, firstfruits are the choicest and first of the crop.....the secondary fruits are still good, but not of the same quality and which appear later.) so this indicates that there are others who are not in this first "crop". Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14 goes on to identify a second group who also attribute salvation to God and the Lamb....

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” . . . . Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

These are the earthly survivors of the coming "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21)......they are not numbered like the first group. But all are praising God for their salvation.

From discussion with people there are many ways to interpret the Bible, depending on who you want to trust as your teacher and the preconceived ideas you bring to the Bible.

Yes indeed....we are all at the mercy of our own hearts, which God is constantly searching to see if they can be taught something new. Just like the Jews who accepted Jesus.....they had to contend with much opposition from those of their own families and community. Jesus told then to expect this. (Matthew 10:34-39) Jesus was not starting a new religion, but simply correcting ingrained understanding which had been corrupted for centuries. Same with Christendom. History is repeating and old mistakes are still being made....the same old deceiver is at work. His MO never changes....because it works.

But certainly more go into the Kingdom than the 144000 anointed. Jesus speaks of Old Testament saints in the Kingdom. (Luke 13:28) And when the resurrected have their immortal and incorruptible bodies, they could go to heaven without fear of damage I'm use,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and in fact Revelation pictures the great crowd in heaven, as you would know. That's one of the passages of scripture that you have to learn the JW answer for to explain it away.

Yes, as I have just explained....
The great crowd are not said to be in heaven...they are 'before the throne' of God, just as Israel were, in their earthly situation. No Jew expected to go to heaven.....it was never in their scripture or in their understanding originally. Resurrection is what they understood and it was entirely earthly, like the Kingdom was expected to be. They got that half right...the kingdom does rule the earth, but it does so from a heavenly vantage point. This is what Revelation 21:2-4 says....

" And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
How was God "with" his people Israel? Did he need to be physically present in order to rule them?

Where did this hangup about going to heaven get its start? We believe that it is a product of the apostasy along with all the other false doctrines that Christendom adopted over the centuries.
We got rid of all of them.

But yes the Bible does tell us that God will come to earth and be with His people here and be in Zion forever. So we all end up on earth in the end.

Now that is funny...you arrive at the same conclusion, but insist that it is by a means that you were taught, despite the fact that it was never stated in the Bible.

Just use the scripture as they were written.....

 

[Clear]

1) Regarding Deejes use of a faulty English translation of Psalms 146:4 to support a modern religious theory.

Clear said : “ You quote the verse as telling us that all "thoughts" cease (gk …απολουνται παντεσ οι διαλογισμοι αυτου…), but in fact LXX Psalms 146:4-5 of early Christianity does NOT say us “thoughts” perish and there is no greek base version that says thoughts cease at death.

The translation of διαλογισμοι as “thoughts” is incorrect You will notice that many english versions have attempted to correct this mistake. For example, Doug Moo and his group also noticed this mistake in psalms 146, and render the greek as “plans” in the NIV. That is, when the spirit departs the body upon death, any “plans” made during life come to nothing is their revision.

The word Διαλογιζομoι (Dialogizomoi) is related to the English word dialogue and exhaustive treatments of the word by early Koine linguists, showed that it was, anciently, never given the discrete meaning of “thought” (i.e. “cogitation”) in any Koine text found up to the 19th century, but instead has judicial usage as its base historical context.

For example, in P Ryl II. 74 (133 a.d.) it is used in it’s typical meaning of holding a discussion and examination upon a subject. It meant holding "court" of some type (whether one is making his own judgment or an official court judgment).

In P Oxy. III. 484:24 (138 a.d.) "...the praefect Avidius Heliodorus holds his auspicious court…”, διαλογιζηται was used for “court” or “examination” of a premise.

In Vettius Valens p. 245:26 it is used to mean “discuss” or “examine” which also was part of the process of considering through dialogue and coming to a decision (a judgment).

The common relationship in all of its uses in such ancient literature was that it referred to an examination of a premise which undergoes “deliberation” or “questioning” in the process of coming to a decision or judgment. Thus, when the word is used in James 2:4 the translation is, again, faulty. It is not “evil thoughts” (KJV) that the judges are guilty of, but rather, the judges are guilty of making corrupt and "evil decisions” and "corrupt judgments”.

My point in this post is that Psalms 146:4-5 does NOT tell us that “thoughts perish”. The concept of deliberations and further interactions and discussions and plans for mortality ceasing can certainly be argued, but the term does not refer to simple "thought" or "cognition".”

Deeje replied : “In whose opinion”?


In the opinion of the ancient greeks who spoke Koine.

I have given you examples regarding how they used the term in their own time and in their own literature and according to their own common usage and given the fact that is it never used the way you used it in ancient koine. Not once in all their literature.


2) Regarding the question posed to Deeje : “Why would your more modern religious theory and your interpretations of faulty english texts take priority over the more original Judeo-Christian religion with its doctrines and its different interpretations of its more original texts?”


Deeje responded : “I think the one really important point in all of this is the elephant in the room.....the great apostasy that was to corrupt Christianity in much the same way that it corrupted Judaism.”

Using faulty scriptures with incorrect interpretations to support apostate religious theories is NOT the way to correct apostasy. @Brian2 is trying to help you understand that your specific theory that there is no spirit in mankind is part of this apostasy AWAY from early Christian religion.

Early Christian doctrine was that there was a spirit in mankind. Your relatively modern religious theory does away with this important basic doctrine of ancient Christianity. Moving AWAY from an original base doctrine IS the definition of apostasy.

@Deeje, Why would your relatively modern religious theories and your personal method of re-interpreting scriptures take priority over ancient and more original Christian doctrine on this specific doctrine?


Clear
τωτωφυφιω

 

[Hockeycowboy]

But I guess people will start waking up more as time goes on.

Actually, that’s what I believe, too; just the opposite of your implication, though. And it seems that’s what happening..... we’re growing faster, percentage-wise, than any other religion in the world (not just USA)......

Are you familiar with our beliefs? And the Scriptural reasons behind them?

 

[LightofTruth]

If you understand that the final cleansing of this earth means the removal of the majority of people alive at that time, having been judged as unworthy to retain life, (as indicated by Jesus in Matthew 7:13-14 and in Revelation 14:14-20 ).....as you said, all the people who have ever lived and died would be a roughly equivalent number. Add to that the land areas which are now uninhabitable deserts, will be transformed into paradise conditions (Isaiah 35).....the earth was designed to be inhabited....all of it. Humans were told to “fill the earth”...not overfill it. God will determine how many humans will comfortably “fill” his earth.



The witnessing done by Jesus’ disciples was to be done “in all the inhabited earth” (Matthew 24:14) so who is Jesus’ missing here?

The dragnet catches many fish, indicating that many may be attracted to the Christian message....but on inspecting the catch, the fisherman throws out those he finds “unsuitable”. Not all who come to Christ are serving their Master with a complete heart....they are not included in the final count.

That is what scripture indicates to us....

If a person does not believe the gospel and is not baptized into Christ then he has not entered into covenant with God for the resurrection of the dead. He will simply die and stay dead.
People who do believe the gospel and are baptized into Christ have entered into covenant with God to be resurrected from the dead. Among those are those who remain faithful and those who do not. The ones who remained faithful are raised to immortal life and those who did not will be raised in shame and contempt and will quickly face a second death in the lake of fire.
The parable of the fisherman's net refers to the resurrection of the dead. Those who are not caught in the net will die in the sea and stay there. They return to their mother earth. The ones caught in the net are either good or bad. They represent the faithful and unfaithful. The faithful are kept and the wicked are cast away.

 

[Brian2]

The soul is not the spirit....you are interchanging them again. The soul is the living, breathing organism....both humans and animals, are both animated by the same spirit. Both die the same death when breathing stops.

I am just using a definition of "soul" that goes beyond the Genesis, creation of Adam definition that you want to use.

When God led Israel out of Egypt, he did not put "heaven or hell" as the result of their choices....he put "life and death" before them because that is the only choice they had. (Deuteronomy 30:19-20)
No one is waiting anywhere in a conscious state. All sleep and all are called from the same place. (John 5:28-29) Where was Lazarus before Jesus resurrected him? (John 11:11-14)

Yes I agree, life or death are the options.
The John passages you give do not show there is no place that the soul of a person goes. Actually Jesus is someone who spoke of hades and conscious dead souls in that place. (Luke 16) It was a parable but Jesus spoke to the understanding of the people at the time and did not deny it.

The dead are living only to God because only God can restore their lives. Their "spirit returns to God" because only he can give life back to them. That is what resurrection means...a return to life in a body.

When Jesus said to the Sadducees that God is God of the living I see that as meaning that the death of the body does not mean that the person is completely dead,,,,,,,,,,that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still alive somewhere,,,,,,,,,,but not physically.
What I have said previously about resurrection being resurrection and not recreation applies. In JW teachings a resurrection is not resurrection but is recreation,,,,,it is making a copy of the person.
The Sadducees who did not believe in a spirit (similar to JWs) knew what Jesus meant about God being God of the living and that this is why what Jesus said answered the question about the resurrection. Jesus was agreeing with the Pharisaic side of the argument about "spirit" and about sheol/hades being the place for the departed souls/spirits to wait,,,,,,,,,,,,,,wait unlike God judged them and decided whether their spirit/soul should also die along with their body.
I doubt that anyone would have understood Jesus as meaning that Abraham etc were alive to God, in His memory. That is the realm of the JWs, who want no spirit/soul but also want a resurrection,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which is illogical for the reasons I have said about it being a recreation.

(There are two kinds of bodies. 1 Corinthians 15:42-49. All who are chosen to rule with Christ in heaven are 'raised first' and these alone are given a spiritual body so as to be able to exist in God's presence.) Not all Christians are heaven bound though, the ones who receive a spiritual resurrection are chosen by God for their role as 'kings and priests'. (Revelation 20:6)
Their subjects will live on earth where God put us in the first place. This is where we were meant to live forever.

There is only one type of resurrection described. The perishable physical body is raised (and that part can be reconstructed/recreated/copied if necessary) and it joins with the spiritual part (as in 1Thess 4) and it becomes a spiritual body, one that is controlled fully and in full harmony with the spirit. It is like the body that Jesus was raised in. (Interestingly Jesus body did not seem to have blood, the life of the body, and so it's life was probably fully spiritual and the body did as the spirit directed) We do not know everything about the resurrection body, but it is incorruptible and immortal. I sometimes wonder what sort of body the people will have who will not be in the Kingdom,,,,,,,,,,,,but we are not told.
The saved will bear the image of the last Adam who became a life giving spirit. Jesus was resurrected into a body that was immortal and incorruptible and controlled by His spirit. But with Jesus, His spirit is the Spirit of God, which He has without measure and He gives us life through this Spirit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BUT He is still a man with a body and we will have a similar body, even if we are not Divine like He is and our spirit will not fill all things as Jesus Spirit does.
Eph 4:10 He who descended is the very one who ascended above all the heavens, in order to fill all things.
We, as Kings, may rule over the people who have been excluded from the Kingdom as in Isa 66:22-24, Zech 14:16,17. But even if we do not have subjects to rule over on earth, we will still be Kings and reign, even if it is over our selves.
Romans 5:17, NIV: "For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!"
We aren't really told much about the coming life and what or who we may or may not be reigning over and so shouldn't make up too much about it.

The dead are dead.....why must they live on somewhere? Who said? Isn't God's promise of a resurrection enough?

The dead are dead physically yes but not spiritually, but we should not imagine that death is something other than what the scriptures tell us and if they tell us of a spiritual side of man that survives death and goes to a place to wait, so be it. Full death comes eventually for some, why wish it on those who are not fully dead yet but only physically dead.

You need a functioning brain to make plans and a functioning body to carry them out. Death takes away both....

Yes physical death means that we are no longer functioning humans, the way God intended us to be.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,10...
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going." (ESV)
With what part of this scripture does the rest of scripture disagree? I can find none. Though I find a lot of misinterpretation.

I prefer the translation below, it is not suggesting that thought ceases and is still contrasting life on earth with existence in Sheol,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and it says that Sheol is the place where the dead go,,,,,,,,,,,,they do not go into annihilation as JWs suggest. Consciousness in Sheol is something that the rest of scripture agrees with.
Eccles 9:5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten..................................
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead,
where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

.......... "sheol" which is the common grave of all mankind.....we all go there.

Actually no, sheol is not the common grave of all mankind. The grave for the body is different to sheol in the scriptures.

 

[Brian2]

The scriptures you cite are colored by your pre-conceived ideas about the soul and spirit which you constantly interchange. They are completely different words with very different meanings.

But you are the one who refuses to use the full range of meanings in the Lexicons. That is because of the JW preconceptions about the subject.

Solomon was very clear in his statements. The souls are dead, regardless of what kind of soul it is...humans and animals die the same death because "they have but one spirit"...the breath that animates them.
Verse 22 of Ecclesiastes 3 says...
"So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?" (ESV)
We have no idea what comes after us because we are dead.....not conscious of anything. We know nothing, see nothing, and feel nothing. You can't seem to see what is right in front of you.....because you don't want it to be true. You want to believe that some part of you lives on.....that is not what God told Adam.

Solomon is looking at life and death from the pov of the human eye and experience. He sees that animals and humans stop breathing and die and goes on to say that we cannot see what happens to the spirits of the animals or humans. In verse 22 he is saying that in this life and with our own experience and eyes etc we cannot see what will happen after this life,,,,,,,,,,so enjoy the life we have.

Ezekiel 18:4 comes out and point blank states it....
"Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die." Souls die. How is Ezekiel not backing up what Solomon said? Both of these men were guided by God's spirit, were they not?

People die, the soul dies, the body becomes a dead soul. Yet there is more to the person than the body and after death the spirit part is the totality of the person and is the soul, which does not die at te death of the body, even if it no doubt can die later when death process is fully completed by the judgement of God in Gehenna. Hence Matt 10:28 and the second death, the lake of fire.

Well, you see, we understand that everyone benefits from the rule of God's Kingdom. The fact that we don't feel sad or 'cheated' about where Jehovah places in the big scheme of things indicates to us that we have the correct understanding. We are all 'one flock under one shepherd' whether we are used in a heavenly capacity or an earthly one. God chooses the ones who will reign with Christ, its not something you can volunteer for...we have no say in that.

I do not see any reason in the definition of Kingdom and in the Bible to break up those who have been saved into ones who go to heaven as spirits and rule as Kings and priests and ones who stay on earth to be ruled over. Is there any Biblical reason to do that which does not come from the imagination of man.
Certainly the Kingdom in the Bible is not a Government, it is a realm over which God rules.

I have no desire to go to heaven because that requires an anointing from God.

Very commendable I'm sure and praiseworthy in the JW community. But tell me if you are led by the Spirit of God.

 

[Brian2]

>>>Brian2 said: But yes the Bible does tell us that God will come to earth and be with His people here and be in Zion forever. So we all end up on earth in the end.

Deeje said: Now that is funny...you arrive at the same conclusion, but insist that it is by a means that you were taught, despite the fact that it was never stated in the Bible. <<<


I'm not sure which conclusion you are referring to.