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Do you Think we have Free Will

Do you Think we have Free Will

  • Total voters
    59
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
Koldo said:
Once again, suffices to say that your definition has nothing to do with the debate concerning the existence of free will.
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It's not my definition. Free will is a cognitive assessment, not a material state. The material state version of it would be called 'chance'. But chance has no will.
 
B

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Koldo said:
If you change the direction towards which the time is flowing, you indeed end in the "beginning". And therefore... ?
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That must therefore be a joke. To end at 'in the beginning' (genesis) a man made creation (story).
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster said:
If your god knows my future and knows that I will order a steak tonight at the restaurant, do I then still have the free will to choose chicken instead?
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Don't you have a sense of deja-vous here? :D
This has already been explained in another thread.

You are putting the cart before the horse .. if G-d knew that you would choose other than steak,
then He would know it. Your choice is not affected .. you might choose to eat fish .. it makes no difference.

The reason for all this confusion, is that you see the future as having different properties than the past..
..when in the grand scheme of things, it does not .. i.e. 'now' is only a perception, that appears to separate the past and future. Einstein knew this.

TagliatelliMonster said:
Free will is, after all, the ability to freely choose between several options. If it is however known before hand what I will choose, then at best I only have the illusion of "freely" choosing that which I am already determined to choose.
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It is no illusion. Your choice is really free .. it is our perception of time that is the 'illusion'.
 
B

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Koldo said:
Only a person that never read the actual philosophical arguments used by hard determinists would say that.
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Only?

The determinists are not the ONLY people capable of debating and arguing free will. It's a choice of conscious life using free will.

Therefore................ free will exists even with prophecy (visions) showing a future event.
 
Koldo

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Bthoth said:
Only?

The determinists are not the ONLY people capable of debating and arguing free will.
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I have never said otherwise.

Bthoth said:
It's a choice of conscious life using free will.

Therefore................ free will exists even with prophecy (visions) showing a future event.
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Let's cut to the chase. What philosophy works/papers/texts/books have you read about this subject?
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Koldo said:
Once again, suffices to say that your definition has nothing to do with the debate concerning the existence of free will.
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Of course it does .. you want to pretend we are all automatons, incapable of
making choices .. which would mean that the cars on the highway are not being
driven by their drivers, but by some mysterious force of destiny. :)
 
shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Koldo said:
Why do you think nature is not hard determinism?
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In Newton's time the view of Physics was "Hard Determinism," because everything from his perspective was explained by linear math, As science advanced through the 19th and 20th century it became apparent linear math failed to explain the observed nature. Randomness was first proposed to explain this variability, but as the our knowledge of the Theory of Relativity, Quantum Mechanics a new determinism was developed to explain the variability in the outcome of cause and effect events. Chaos Theory was developed based on fractal math taking into considering the many variable in nature. Thee conclusion of the new determinism where out physical existence is not random. The only thing that is found as random is the timing of the outcome of individual events. The patterns of all cause and effect outcomes.

Again and again we are natural beings and our behavior and choices of willful decisions which follow natural patterns, therefore "Hard determinism" cannot explain whether our human will.
 
shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Bthoth said:
Because consciousness enables independent thought and action.
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Not really related to the question asked. It was a question concerning the degree of determinism in nature. It is obvious a degree of determinism is observed in nature, because if not science would be impossible. See post #231.

Our consciousness is a product of natural processes like everything else. It is not able to be completely independent of its thoughts and actions.
 
Koldo

Koldo

Outstanding Member
shunyadragon said:
In Newton's time the view of Physics was "Hard Determinism," because everything from his perspective was explained by linear math, As science advanced through the 19th and 20th century it became apparent linear math failed to explain the observed nature. Randomness was first proposed to explain this variability, but as the our knowledge of the Theory of Relativity, Quantum Mechanics a new determinism was developed to explain the variability in the outcome of cause and effect events. Chaos Theory was developed based on fractal math taking into considering the many variable in nature. Thee conclusion of the new determinism where out physical existence is not random. The only thing that is found as random is the timing of the outcome of individual events. The patterns of all cause and effect outcomes.

Again and again we are natural beings and our behavior and choices of willful decisions which follow natural patterns, therefore "Hard determinism" cannot explain whether our human will.
Click to expand...

Hard determinism doesn't require linear math. Chaos theory is compatible with hard determinism.
 
shunyadragon

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Bthoth said:
Sure it does. To even consider the question exposed the 'existence of free will'.
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As I described in many posts the existence of Free Will is at best a matter of degree, and not "Libertarian Free Will." or "Hard Determinism" and no Free Will.

For there to be "Libertarian Free Will our decision making process must be free of outside influences which is impossible.

We have a 'Will' but it is not necessarily free.
 
B

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Koldo said:
You should read one more time what I have said.



The.... what? Your example of what you have read about the subject is the... turing test?
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I am not listing everything that I have read. Seth Lloyd utilized a method that I recalled and even now identify as far more physics based, the Turing test and QM

"""

A Turing test for free will​

Seth Lloyd
Before Alan Turing made his crucial contributions to the theory of computation, he studied the question of whether quantum mechanics could throw light on the nature of free will. This article investigates the roles of quantum mechanics and computation in free will. Although quantum mechanics implies that events are intrinsically unpredictable, the `pure stochasticity' of quantum mechanics adds only randomness to decision making processes, not freedom. By contrast, the theory of computation implies that even when our decisions arise from a completely deterministic decision-making process, the outcomes of that process can be intrinsically unpredictable, even to -- especially to -- ourselves. I argue that this intrinsic computational unpredictability of the decision making process is what give rise to our impression that we possess free will. Finally, I propose a `Turing test' for free will: a decision maker who passes this test will tend to believe that he, she, or it possesses free will, whether the world is deterministic or not.""""
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That should cover your thread and a depth, that you could use to help with rational.
 
Koldo

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Bthoth said:
I am not listing everything that I have read. Seth Lloyd utilized a method that I recalled and even now identify as far more physics based, the Turing test and QM

"""

A Turing test for free will​

Seth Lloyd


That should cover your thread and a depth, that you could use to help with rational.
Click to expand...

I ask you to tell me what philosophy text you have read concerning free will and you present to me the work of a person that has no background in philosophy... Do you understand the problem?
 
B

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Koldo said:
I ask you to tell me what philosophy text you have read concerning free will and you present to me the work of a person that has no background in philosophy... Do you understand the problem?
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Sure, you expect accredited opinion.

As if every soul had to learn from a canon of accredited material to even understand their own position.
 
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