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Do you Think we have Free Will

Do you Think we have Free Will


  • Total voters
    59

PureX

Veteran Member
If it is not your definition, how did you learn of it? Source?
Use your own mind! "Will" is a cognitive desire. That means that it requires recognition to occur. And that requires consciousness. Conscious awareness, and in this case, an awareness of choice. It cannot occur otherwise. There is no objective free will state. There is only a 'free will' state of mind. And that state of mind exists on it's own. Unmolested by objective determination.

The only version of "objective" free will that could be said to exist is chance. And that could also be debated.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Use your own mind! "Will" is a cognitive desire. That means that it requires recognition to occur. And that requires consciousness. Conscious awareness, and in this case, an awareness of choice. It cannot occur otherwise. There is no objective free will state. There is only a 'free will' state of mind. And that state of mind exists on it's own. Unmolested by objective determination.

The only version of "objective" free will that could be said to exist is chance. And that could also be debated.

Then you are using your own definition since you are the one who came up with it. And it is not applicable to the debate concerning free will vs. determinism.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Then you are using your own definition since you are the one who came up with it. And it is not applicable to the debate concerning free will vs. determinism.
Using free will does enable that.............. which is applicable to human discussions/debate.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Then you are using your own definition since you are the one who came up with it. And it is not applicable to the debate concerning free will vs. determinism.
No .. scientists understand that the conscious observer is important .. such as in quantum theory.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Sure, you expect accredited opinion.

As if every soul had to learn from a canon of accredited material to even understand their own position.

No, what I expected is for you to show there is any merit to the way you are using the term 'free will' on this topic.

To have an opinion concerning the existence of free will, you must first properly understand what is meant by 'free will' on these debates. Otherwise, you are going to be fighting against a strawman of your own making.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I am not listing everything that I have read. Seth Lloyd utilized a method that I recalled and even now identify as far more physics based, the Turing test and QM

"""

A Turing test for free will​

Seth Lloyd

Before Alan Turing made his crucial contributions to the theory of computation, he studied the question of whether quantum mechanics could throw light on the nature of free will. This article investigates the roles of quantum mechanics and computation in free will. Although quantum mechanics implies that events are intrinsically unpredictable, the `pure stochasticity' of quantum mechanics adds only randomness to decision making processes, not freedom.

I disagree with the assertion of the unpredictability of Quantum Mechanics except for the timing of the outcome of individual events. The appearance of what is called randomness does follow predictable patterns therefore we have the science of Quantum Mechanics.


Is quantum theory really as random as it seems?​

The maths suggests the reality we get from quantum probabilities is random, but there might be some hidden determinism at play – or perhaps the present can influence the past
By Miriam Frankel
25 August 2021


Skizzomat​

THE quantum realm of atoms and particles has randomness at its core. At least that’s what the maths of probabilistic quantum wave functions implies. Our knowledge of the quantum world is rather like a die throw – in the air it takes many values at once, before landing on one. Until then, the result is unknowable. Or is it?

Quantum randomness is “just odd”, says Sabine Hossenfelder, a theorist at the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies in Germany, contradicting our intuitive understanding of cause and effect. Unlike most of her peers, she’s not convinced the quantum world is an incorrigible gambler. “I don’t think one should give up trying to find an explanation,” she says.

She favours an idea known as superdeterminism, that what we ultimately see on measuring a quantum object is somehow predetermined by factors we can’t observe. The idea has been around for a while, but has remained pretty unloved, partly because it seems to undermine the notion of scientific experiment: if undetectable initial conditions somehow predetermine outcomes so that experimenters cannot use their free will, how can we trust science? Many also argue that superdeterminism is “fine-tuned” to an absurd extent: to make any sense of the data we collect in the physical world, we need to know about the initial conditions from which the world arose.


By contrast, the theory of computation implies that even when our decisions arise from a completely deterministic decision-making process, the outcomes of that process can be intrinsically unpredictable, even to -- especially to -- ourselves. I argue that this intrinsic computational unpredictability of the decision making process is what give rise to our impression that we possess free will. Finally, I propose a `Turing test' for free will: a decision maker who passes this test will tend to believe that he, she, or it possesses free will, whether the world is deterministic or not.
That should cover your thread and a depth, that you could use to help with rational.
Even though, true randomness does not exist in nature even in Quantum Mechanics, it does not detract from the possible contribution of the Turing Test. I do believe it is an over statement of the assertion that the Turing Test determines Free Will does not entirely exist though any consideration of Libertarian Free Will is impossible,
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
If you change the direction towards which the time is flowing, you indeed end in the "beginning". And therefore... ?


Therefore there is no fundamental distinction between past and present. They are distinguishable only by virtue of our vantage point in the present; we remember the past, and anticipate the present, but in a fully determinist universe, they are both already decided.

I should point out that I am not a super-determinist btw. I don’t believe that the future is decided. I believe we have the capacity to influence it, albeit within definite limitations
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
No, what I expected is for you to show there is any merit to the way you are using the term 'free will' on this topic.
You should have imposed the qualifier prior.
To have an opinion concerning the existence of free will, you must first properly understand what is meant by 'free will' on these debates. Otherwise, you are going to be fighting against a strawman of your own making.

Sure..... conscious life does have the ability to make up their own mind.

Thank you for expressing how you agree that free will is a conscious choice, naturally.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Therefore there is no fundamental distinction between past and present. The hard distinguishable only by virtue of our vantage point in the present; we remember the past, and anticipate the present, but ima determinist universe, they are both decided.

And therefore... ?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
You should have imposed the qualifier prior.


Sure..... conscious life does have the ability to make up their own mind.

Thank you for expressing how you agree that free will is a conscious choice, naturally.

Once again showing you have no idea of what is free will...
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Before Alan Turing made his crucial contributions to the theory of computation, he studied the question of whether quantum mechanics could throw light on the nature of free will. This article investigates the roles of quantum mechanics and computation in free will. Although quantum mechanics implies that events are intrinsically unpredictable, the `pure stochasticity' of quantum mechanics adds only randomness to decision making processes, not freedom.
That randomness is less than causal.

The freedom or free will operator is focused on consciousness/conscious life.

I disagree with the assertion of the unpredictability of Quantum Mechanics except for the timing of the outcome of individual events. The appearance of what is called randomness does follow predictable patterns therefore we have the science of Quantum Mechanics.
Qm is not a science, it is a theory a mathematical model. Questioning the implications is the choice and of free will of conscious minds wanting to know.

Is quantum theory really as random as it seems?​

The maths suggests the reality we get from quantum probabilities is random, but there might be some hidden determinism at play – or perhaps the present can influence the past
By Miriam Frankel
25 August 2021

Scary thought to address, ""perhaps the present can influence the past""

Reminds me of sci fi......... 'back to the future'. The random creation of a movie.

Skizzomat​

THE quantum realm of atoms and particles has randomness at its core. At least that’s what the maths of probabilistic quantum wave functions implies. Our knowledge of the quantum world is rather like a die throw – in the air it takes many values at once, before landing on one. Until then, the result is unknowable. Or is it?

Quantum randomness is “just odd”, says Sabine Hossenfelder, a theorist at the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies in Germany, contradicting our intuitive understanding of cause and effect. Unlike most of her peers, she’s not convinced the quantum world is an incorrigible gambler. “I don’t think one should give up trying to find an explanation,” she says.

She favours an idea known as superdeterminism, that what we ultimately see on measuring a quantum object is somehow predetermined by factors we can’t observe. The idea has been around for a while, but has remained pretty unloved, partly because it seems to undermine the notion of scientific experiment: if undetectable initial conditions somehow predetermine outcomes so that experimenters cannot use their free will, how can we trust science? Many also argue that superdeterminism is “fine-tuned” to an absurd extent: to make any sense of the data we collect in the physical world, we need to know about the initial conditions from which the world arose.


By contrast, the theory of computation implies that even when our decisions arise from a completely deterministic decision-making process, the outcomes of that process can be intrinsically unpredictable, even to -- especially to -- ourselves. I argue that this intrinsic computational unpredictability of the decision making process is what give rise to our impression that we possess free will. Finally, I propose a `Turing test' for free will: a decision maker who passes this test will tend to believe that he, she, or it possesses free will, whether the world is deterministic or not.

Even though, true randomness does not exist in nature even in Quantum Mechanics, it does not detract from the possible contribution of the Turing Test. I do believe it is an over statement of the assertion that the Turing Test determines Free Will does not entirely exist though any consideration of Libertarian Free Will is impossible,

Before Alan Turing made his crucial contributions to the theory of computation, he studied the question of whether quantum mechanics could throw light on the nature of free will. This article investigates the roles of quantum mechanics and computation in free will. Although quantum mechanics implies that events are intrinsically unpredictable, the `pure stochasticity' of quantum mechanics adds only randomness to decision making processes, not freedom.

I disagree with the assertion of the unpredictability of Quantum Mechanics except for the timing of the outcome of individual events. The appearance of what is called randomness does follow predictable patterns therefore we have the science of Quantum Mechanics.


Is quantum theory really as random as it seems?​

The maths suggests the reality we get from quantum probabilities is random, but there might be some hidden determinism at play – or perhaps the present can influence the past
By Miriam Frankel
25 August 2021

Skizzomat​

THE quantum realm of atoms and particles has randomness at its core. At least that’s what the maths of probabilistic quantum wave functions implies. Our knowledge of the quantum world is rather like a die throw – in the air it takes many values at once, before landing on one. Until then, the result is unknowable. Or is it?

Quantum randomness is “just odd”, says Sabine Hossenfelder, a theorist at the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies in Germany, contradicting our intuitive understanding of cause and effect. Unlike most of her peers, she’s not convinced the quantum world is an incorrigible gambler. “I don’t think one should give up trying to find an explanation,” she says.

She favours an idea known as superdeterminism, that what we ultimately see on measuring a quantum object is somehow predetermined by factors we can’t observe. The idea has been around for a while, but has remained pretty unloved, partly because it seems to undermine the notion of scientific experiment: if undetectable initial conditions somehow predetermine outcomes so that experimenters cannot use their free will, how can we trust science? Many also argue that superdeterminism is “fine-tuned” to an absurd extent: to make any sense of the data we collect in the physical world, we need to know about the initial conditions from which the world arose.


By contrast, the theory of computation implies that even when our decisions arise from a completely deterministic decision-making process, the outcomes of that process can be intrinsically unpredictable, even to -- especially to -- ourselves. I argue that this intrinsic computational unpredictability of the decision making process is what give rise to our impression that we possess free will. Finally, I propose a `Turing test' for free will: a decision maker who passes this test will tend to believe that he, she, or it possesses free will, whether the world is deterministic or not.

Even though, true randomness does not exist in nature even in Quantum Mechanics, it does not detract from the possible contribution of the Turing Test. I do believe it is an over statement of the assertion that the Turing Test determines Free Will does not entirely exist though any consideration of Libertarian Free Will is impossible,
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Self-causing or self-caused? Can you elaborate on what you mean by this term specifically?

Self-causing.

I can peobably elaborate later; I'm pressed for time this week, and this requires a very long post to clarify in sufficient detail.

Wouldn't either randomness or determinism be the constraint though?

Not in this context, no.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
No .. scientists understand that the conscious observer is important .. such as in quantum theory.
This a little old and moldy view of Quantum Mechanics.

The observer effect is problem of the perception of the observer, not Quantum Mechanics behavior. The observer does not effect the behavior of Quantum particles.

The Double-Slit Experiment in Physics - The Quantum Physics Observer Effect​

quantum physics observer effect

Actual result of the double-slit experiment (energywavetheory.com)
One very interesting use of the term “observer effect” is in physics, specifically the quantum physics observer effect. The famous double-slit experiment demonstrates the wave nature of particles. So-called fundamental particles, such as electrons, when made to impinge on a screen with two slits, appear to pass through both slits at once. This is obviously impossible from a classical perspective. However, examining the results of sending these particles through the double-slit apparatus shows this behavior as an interference pattern on an optical screen. This behavior is impossible from a classical perspective.

Double-slit+with+water.jpg

Double-slit with water (wiki.anton-paar.com)
The interference pattern resulting from the double-slit experiment is the same result you get if you allow water waves to impinge on a barrier that contains two slits: at some distance behind that barrier, the waves coming from the slits will interfere with one another, causing them to add to each other at some places and at other places cancel each other out. This phenomenon is called interference, and it’s interpreted as conclusive evidence of wave behavior.
quantum physics observer effect

The classically-expected result (commons.wikimedia.org)

The observer effect enters into the double-slit experiment in the following manner: the way we look at the world causes us to assume that a physical particle will only pass through one of the slits. After all, every object we’ve ever observed at our human scale follows only one trajectory through space and time.
Intuitively, we expect to be able to measure which slit the particle went through by firing it at the screen with two slits and looking at the resulting image on the optical screen.
However, it turns out that any attempt to measure which slit the particle “actually” passes through destroys the interference pattern and produces the classically-expected result of all the particles striking the screen directly behind one of the slits. This measurement by an observer and his/her equipment effectively removes the wave aspect from the particle! For those of us who think about quantum physics, this is a stunning result!

Conclusion​

The world you and I experience is an interpretation of sensory data. As to the question of what the world might be beyond its human interpretation, we have no knowledge. Equipped with only our sensory apparatus, we cannot know what lies behind the curtain of interpretation. The world itself will always be unknowable, unfathomable, and mysterious to us. That’s not a problem; it’s the source of the possibility of magical experience for human Being.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
And therefore cause and effect cease to apply, since in order for (a) to influence (b) and result in (c), they must be arranged in order of time

If, however, they are arranged in order,... cause and effect applies.
They are arranged in order.
Therefore, cause and effect applies.
 
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