Most people will agree with the above. Notice it is ONE line, and not many!
It is one line. But the end of the line is "now". There is no future line.
The line stretches into the past, not into the future.
The line moves forward along with "now".
Dots are placed as events unfold in the "now".
You are trying to claim that the line is already stretched into the future.
I'm saying that if that is the case, then free will can not exist, because at that point all we can do, by definition, is fall in line with "the line" that is already set in stone.
There you go .. just repeating your assertion from intuition.
Not from intuition. Rather from definition.
If events of the future are already determined, the no choice you make is free. All you can do is fall in line with your "destiny" and whatever choice you think you have, is just illusion at best.
Can you not see, that the future is only ONE line, and not many.
Addressed this above. There is no line in the future. The line stretches into the past and grows as "now" turns into the past.
If free will exists, the future holds a near infinite amount of
potential lines of which one becomes concrete as events unfold in the now.
If today it is already determined which of these lines will be the concrete one, then choices are predetermined and not free.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
The only reason it is "uncertain", is because you do not know what it is.
I'm not even arguing if it is certain or not. I'm merely pointing out that it can't be certain if free will exists.
You want it to be certain while free will exists. This can't be. You can't have both.
i.e. it has not been decided, as far as we can perceive
The point, you keep missing it: if it already is decided while we can't perceive it, then our perception of free will is an illusion.
It is this perception that provides the intuition that if it is known, it must have been decided
by the agent that knows it.
I didn't say anything about the knowing agent
deciding anything.
This is also why I said that it doesn't matter how it is known or why.
Whatever the reason... a knowable future is not compatible with free will.
That's right .. as far as we perceive .. but what about the perception of
an agent that is not part of the universe?
I already addressed this.
It would, from that god's... err "agent's" (
) perspective, turn the universe into a movie that you can fast forward and rewind. It has a pre-determined plot (for whatever reason). The result of which is that free will can't exist in that universe.
I know .. you prefer to ignore the possibility .. "the universe rules, ok!"
I'm not ignoring anything.
I'm just pointing out the blatant self-contradiction in your insistence that the future can be known while free will exists.
The future can only be known if all choices are pre-determined (for whatever reason, through whatever mechanism). aka, not free.
Again, can't have it both ways.
Nonsense .. I have shown you above, that we have only one future!
You didn't show anything. You CLAIMED.
And your claim is not compatible with free will.
It is just that we don't know what it is.
Doesn't matter.
Perception!
The human perception.
Is that the total sum of "reality"?
Of course not.
Never said it was.
Again, just pointing out that you want your cake and eat it too.
..so somebody shows you theory of relativity, and you think "ah! I know it all now"
Relativity has nothing to do with this.
Nope .. not even close.
There is no "pre-determined script".
The "script" is determined by our choices, just as in the past.
If choices are known before they occur, they are not choices. Then they are compulsions masquerading as choices.
The point. You keep missing it.
You see, if it was impossible to know the future, you wouldn't be talking about
"pre-determined" scripts .. now THAT is the whole point.
THAT is what I believe your agenda to be.
I don't have any agenda.
I'm not arguing for any which way.
I'm ONLY pointing out how your view is self-contradicting.
Either free will exists or it doesn't.
If it does, the future is uncertain.
If it doesn't, the future is certain.
Can't have it both ways.
Time is part of the space-time continuum .. as in "measured time".
You cannot know for sure, what lies outside of our universe.
What lies outside the universe (if that phrase even makes sense) is irrelevant to the point being made.