Personal experience of what, though? You're begging the question.
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Do you Think we have Free Will
- Thread starter leroy
- Start date
leroy
Well-Known Member
Personal experience = it really feels at though we have free will……. This is what I mean with personal expereicne.
1 If you grant free will, then you are tacitly accepting that experiences are (or could be) a good source of knowledge
2 If you reject experience as a valid source of knowledge, then you have to reject free will
You which one do you pick? 1 or 2 ]?
At the end of the day, despite all of the (endless) philosophical debate about free will, the entire human race accepts that it exists. We accept it when we tell people, "you made a great (or terrible) choice!" We accept it when we try people for crimes in courts of law. We accept it when we admire our heros for what they've accompliched, or despise others for the damage they've done.
Because without some measure of free will, absolutely none of that makes any sense at all. I cannot be acclaimed for some great thing I've done, or villified for the opposite, if there is no sense in which I could have chosen to do otherwise. Punishing your kid for not doing their homework would be totally unjust if she had no choice in the matter.
For myself, I strongly believe that there is a real "I" inside of me, located (I think) in the brain stem, not the prefrontal cortex where too many have been looking for it for so long -- particularly (as some now think) the reticular activating system. And it is from here that I think free will actually arises. No doubt much of our decision-making is activated by inputs, internal mental states, etc., etc., I think that this "I" has the final ability to say "yes" or "no," and in the latter case, stop the decision. I tend to call this "free won't" (that's not original with me).
Because without some measure of free will, absolutely none of that makes any sense at all. I cannot be acclaimed for some great thing I've done, or villified for the opposite, if there is no sense in which I could have chosen to do otherwise. Punishing your kid for not doing their homework would be totally unjust if she had no choice in the matter.
For myself, I strongly believe that there is a real "I" inside of me, located (I think) in the brain stem, not the prefrontal cortex where too many have been looking for it for so long -- particularly (as some now think) the reticular activating system. And it is from here that I think free will actually arises. No doubt much of our decision-making is activated by inputs, internal mental states, etc., etc., I think that this "I" has the final ability to say "yes" or "no," and in the latter case, stop the decision. I tend to call this "free won't" (that's not original with me).
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Yes .. and so do courts of law.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
The ability to make choices independent of outside influence.
And I wouldn't know how to vote, tbh.
My gut feeling tells me that it exists, that I indeed am able to make free choices independent of outside influence.
But it's impossible to test since we can't go back in time and see if any given choice can turn out otherwise.
I feel like I can make free choices independent of outside influence and that's the best I can do in terms of supporting the existence of free will.
That, and the fact that it seems impossible to perfectly predict behavior 100% of the time - but that could also be explained by the complexity of the world and not being aware of all possible variables.
And that seems pretty weak as evidence.
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TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Que?
That makes no sense at all.
Empiricism and testability is the exact opposite of relying on "personal experience".
Empirical testing exists precisely BECAUSE "personal experience" isn't reliable.
2 doesn't follow from 1 at all
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
2 doesn't follow from 1.
At best, you would have to say that we have no objective evidence for (or against) it.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Question for those who doubt the existence of free will; are we or are we not responsible for our actions?
PureX
Veteran Member
To perceive a choice is to have free will.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
I believe it was Bertrand Russel who once said
"Free will does not exist, but we should still put criminals in jail"
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
"Free will does not exist, but we should still put criminals in jail"
Though presumably not to punish, since punishment would be unwarranted. And wouldn’t justice, with her sword, her blindfold and her scales, be an illusion too?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
You didn't finish the sentence?
But yea, "personal experience" is notoriously unreliable.
This is why science exists.
This doesn't mean that personal experience is always wrong.
Jail is punishment.
No idea what you are trying to say here.
In any case, what I shared there was just what Russel said. I just thought it was funny in context of your question.
I do not necessarily agree with Russel.
I operate under the assumption that free will exists and that humans are responsible for the choices they make.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
So you act as if you have free will, because it’s pretty much impossible to do otherwise. Which surely makes the experience of free will as real as any other phenomenon in this often illusory, floating world.
Honestly I believe that free will denial is not done in good faith.
That's my personal opinion.
It's a clear case of Freudian Verneinung.
That's my personal opinion.
It's a clear case of Freudian Verneinung.
leroy
Well-Known Member
I am not claiming that 2 follows from 1, I am claiming that you have to pick ether 1 or 2
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
I don't think it's impossible to do otherwise.
Not sure what you mean by that.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Then it's a false dichotomy.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Yes, so long as our actions were willed and uncoerced.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Only if we are talking about a layman's understanding of the term.
I mean Erasmus' notion of free will, as it is defined in his De libero arbitrio.