Do you Think we have Free Will

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok what other alternative do you propose? And which one would you pick?



Hand waving from what? According to you what is the issue that I am avoiding

The issue you're avoiding is that you're begging the question: you can't say that it "feels like" we have free will without first establishing what "free will" feels like... which would mean establishing thay free will exists.

 

[leroy]

The issue you're avoiding is that you're begging the question: you can't say that it "feels like" we have free will without first establishing what "free will" feels like... which would mean establishing thay free will exists.

It´s not possible to describe it with words…… and I don’t understand why is it relevant.

I am granting your previous comment , free will can´t be tested, all we have is a personal experience where it really feels as though sometimes we make free choices.

I personally would argue that this “experience” is enough to grant that we have free will…. ¿do you accept claim that we have free will?

 

[Koldo]

It´s not possible to describe it with words…… and I don’t understand why is it relevant.

I am granting your previous comment , free will can´t be tested, all we have is a personal experience where it really feels as though sometimes we make free choices.

I personally would argue that this “experience” is enough to grant that we have free will…. ¿do you accept claim that we have free will?

How do you distinguish between feeling like we make a free choice and a post hoc rationalization that lead to this conclusion?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It´s not possible to describe it with words…… and I don’t understand why is it relevant.

A: "have you ever had chicken?"
B: "well, I've had lots of things that taste like chicken, so unless there's a reason to think that they were something else, it stands to reason that I've had chicken."
A: "how do you know what chicken tastes like unless you're already sure that you've had chicken?"

 

[leroy]

How do you distinguish between feeling like we make a free choice and a post hoc rationalization that lead to this conclusion?

I cant

 

[FredVB]

I think we have free will, it is not something that can be proven or disproven, but I believe it, and it is very believable, rather than it being that we are programmed in everything and can't think differently. It works with the rest of my faith most consistently, even while we might not have choice in what we think we choose in many cases, in some things we really do choose. I especially see it for myself in my choices.

I also do not eat chicken, I choose not to.

 

[leroy]

A: "have you ever had chicken?"
B: "well, I've had lots of things that taste like chicken, so unless there's a reason to think that they were something else, it stands to reason that I've had chicken."
A: "how do you know what chicken tastes like unless you're already sure that you've had chicken?"

I haven’t proved empirically that I have ever eaten chicken.. (I assume it´s possible, with DNA testing for example) but I havent done it.

However I simply trust the labels of the supermarket , because I “feel” that it is unlikely that they would lie to me so many times


I dont hold the view that empirical testing is the only way to “know things”…….. so the lack of empirical testing to confirm free will or chicken is not a concern for me

 

[muhammad_isa]

Are reflex behaviors examples of free will decisions? I don't think so.

What you describe is NOT really a "reflex" action .. that is an involuntary action,
such as a tendon reflex (or jerk).

What you describe is more akin to the way the brain deals with multi-tasking.
It still requires a choice to be made, and it is consciously made.

i.e. a person who presses the brake while driving, has MADE A CHOICE.
If that were not the case, then cars would be stopping without the drivers wishing it.

 

[metis]

do you think humans have the aility to make choices ?

Not when my wife is around.

 

[PureX]

A: "have you ever had chicken?"
B: "well, I've had lots of things that taste like chicken, so unless there's a reason to think that they were something else, it stands to reason that I've had chicken."
A: "how do you know what chicken tastes like unless you're already sure that you've had chicken?"

These are questions that we all should ask ... but only once in a while.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

* In this context Free Will is defined as the ability to make choices that are not fully determined by past events nor fully random

I know this is a hard question and that nobody claims to have 100% certanity..... but in your opinion what is more likely to be true?... do you think humans have the aility to make choices ?

It is yes and no. Free will is defined as a rational choice we have made.

Some aspects of life we are subject to fate. Other aspects, such as moral and ethical choices, we are able to make a free will determination, limited to nature amd nurture and our subjective state of mind.

Regards Tony

 

[PureX]

It is yes and no. Free will is defined as a rational choice we have made.

Some aspects of life we are subject to fate. Other aspects, such as moral and ethical choices, we are able to make a free will determination, limited to nature amd nurture and our subjective state of mind.

Regards Tony

Incoming ... no choice.

Outgoing ... choice.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Incoming ... no choice.

Outgoing ... choice.

I see we can alter our choices on some Incoming aspects of Nature and Nurture.

If we find a different path to what our precious education has sent us on.

Regards Tony

 

[Koldo]

I cant

Exactly. So, it is not even the personal experience of free will that you can rely on, but rather a hunch based on personal experience. As I see it, this hunch can explained by our feelings (of regret) and our capacity to imagine ourselves chosing the other alternative. Both of which are still compatible with a determinist perspective. If, however, you try to find what makes us able to make choices, you won't find any explanation that doesn't lead to a determinist (or indeterminist) cause.

 

[idea]

Nature - DNA made me do it
Nurture - environment/upbringing

I can't think of any decisions I've made which cannot be traced to nature/nurture

People who are considered success, or failure - it was their environment and their dna.

 

[idea]

i.e. a person who presses the brake while driving, has MADE A CHOICE.
If that were not the case, then cars would be stopping without the drivers wishing it.

a person who presses the brake while driving HAS BEEN TRAINED BY THEIR ENVIRONMENT TO DO SO.

someone who had never been trained wouldn't understand how to operate brakes. An untrained person might want to stop, but can't because they weren't trained.

Environment.

 

[YoursTrue]

“man is condemned to be free. Condemned, because he did not create himself, in other respect is free; because, once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does.” - Jean-Paul Sartre.

Not only are we able to make decisions, the existentialist perceives that there is no way we can avoid making them even if we want to.

This is so far the only post that caught my interest as if it were rational because I agree in part with Sartre's evaluation about being condemned because we didn't ask to be born. But anyway even in chains I prefer life now over death. However I don't have much of a choice in the matter.

 

[leroy]

Exactly. So, it is not even the personal experience of free will that you can rely on, but rather a hunch based on personal experience. As I see it, this hunch can explained by our feelings (of regret) and our capacity to imagine ourselves chosing the other alternative. Both of which are still compatible with a determinist perspective. If, however, you try to find what makes us able to make choices, you won't find any explanation that doesn't lead to a determinist (or indeterminist) cause.

Sure I accept free will for the same reason I accept that I live in a physical world (and not in the Matrix)

I feel that I make choices and I feel that I am typing words with a physical keyboard.

I am not willing to pay the price of rejecting free will, unless a strong argument is given

 

[Curious George]

Sure I accept free will for the same reason I accept that I live in a physical world (and not in the Matrix)

I feel that I make choices and I feel that I am typing words with a physical keyboard.

I am not willing to pay the price of rejecting free will, unless a strong argument is given

Not believing in free will is unreasonable, irrational and, I would even suggest, impossible.

Such an incredible claim, that humans have zero degree of control, is counterintuitive and contrasts with everything we experience. Is it possible that all we experience is just an illusion of free will? Sure. But such an incredible claim would surely require incredible evidence. People who claim free will does not exist(while I suspect they still believe in free will) fail to deliver any such incredible evidence. Often they point to a couple past studies with clear errors and assumptions.

 

[Koldo]

Sure I accept free will for the same reason I accept that I live in a physical world (and not in the Matrix)

I feel that I make choices and I feel that I am typing words with a physical keyboard.

I am not willing to pay the price of rejecting free will, unless a strong argument is given

Whether you have to pay any price is another debate. As for this one, the strongest argument against free will is, curious enough, our very personal experience when making choices. If I asked you why you chose X over Y, you would refer to some parameter. For example, if I asked why you have bought one given chocolate candy over some other you would reply that your rationale was that one of them is tastier, or cheaper, or a complicated and elaborated list... You would be telling me that you pondered over the available alternatives for a moment, at least, and assessed which one best matched the parameters you sought. In other words, your choice was an act to satisfy your wants, your desires, your goals. And if you agree with this assessment, then there is simply no room for free will anywhere, because you will always choose what you think better satisfies you. It is an inevitability.