Do you Think we have Free Will

[shunyadragon]

What you just wrote is totally absurd and creates havoc in the Bible...

Well , , , ah the Bible is full of the absurd and havoc.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Compatibilism, Thesis that free will, in the sense required for moral responsibility, is consistent with universal causal determinism..

Yes.

It is important to distinguish the question of the logical consistency of belief in universal causal determinism with belief in free will from the question whether the thesis of free will (or that of causal determinism) is true. Compatibilists need not assert (though many have) the reality both of free will and of causal determinism.

Again, yes. They are 2 different issues.
"causal determinism" being a belief close to a materialistic view of the universe, that results in free-will being "an illusion" etc.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes, that's more like it.


Mmm .. and that is what I have been trying to explain in this thread. It is NOT "unresolvable".
It is a common fallacy that people from all walks of life, experts included, have trouble with.
..which presumably is why this never-ending debate continues to this day.

As I keep saying, it is "resolved" when one considers what exactly is DETERMINING the future.
It's easy to just keep repeating that a so-called "fixed future" must be what determines it, but
on closer examination, this is NOT NECESSARILY the case.

Science nor I never asserted anything that Determinism determines exactly what happens in the future. Determinism predicts the physical nture of our existence and future cause and effect events occur within a range of possible outcomes.

2 simple questions ..
What stops a person's CHOICE being what determines/fixes the future?

The limiting factors of determinism. Careful NOT fixed.

Why is it that "we don't have a choice"?

If you are a Hard determinist you may assert that humans do not have the freedom to do otherwise.

I do not believe in Hard Determinism.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes.


Again, yes. They are 2 different issues.
"causal determinism" being a belief close to a materialistic view of the universe, that results in free-will being "an illusion" etc.

Causal Determinism is a scientific view of the physical nature of our physical existence supported by the objective verifiable evidence based on Methodological Naturalism, which is indifferent to any subjective metaphysical subjective belief and not a materialist view. Materialism is a separate subjective philosophical belief called Ontological Naturalism. Free Will being an illusion is a Hard Determinist and Compatibilist belief.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Free Will being an illusion is a Hard Determinist and Compatibilist belief.

No .. it's a determinist belief, yes, but not compatibilist.

Compatibilists believe that a determined future and free-will are .. well, compatible.
Compatibilists don't see free-will as an illusion .. they see it for what it is .. capacity to make decisions,
that are very real.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Causal Determinism is a scientific view of the physical nature of our physical existence supported by the objective verifiable evidence based on Methodological Naturalism, which is indifferent to any subjective metaphysical subjective belief and not a materialist view..

I beg to differ.
You say you believe that our free-will is limited by "Natural law" .. this law is about how the material world
operates. You say that it "rules over" our free will.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If you are a Hard determinist you may assert that humans do not have the freedom to do otherwise.

I do not believe in Hard Determinism.

Agreed upon.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The limiting factors of determinism. Careful NOT fixed..

Right .. why is it that you don't give us one or two practical examples, rather
than waffle on about evolution and what-have-you?

 

[danieldemol]

I don't think we have free will, I know we do.

Are you defining knowledge as justified true belief?

If you are would you care to justify your statement?

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

Are you defining knowledge as justified true belief?

If you are would you care to justify your statement?

Dude, I don't even know what to say. You and I are both clearly old enough to have exercised all kinds of choices for years of our own free will. May as well be asking if people really breathe or think.

 

[shunyadragon]

Right .. why is it that you don't give us one or two practical examples, rather.

Simple, the behavior of our solar system is predictable within a range of cause and effect events that vary the behavior of the planets like the gravitational effect of of comets and other heavenly bodies. Things are not exact, Science makes predictions of the variation in the orbits within a range of possible outcomes and the science predictions are accurate.

Weather prediction of future conditions vary but but predictions arec\ accurately within a range of possible outcomes up to a week, Because of the large number of variables the further in the future the wider range of possible outcomes, but within the climate models for each region. Chaos Theory has become increasingly important in computer modeling of weather prediction. Recently the predictions based on La Nina and El Nino years have become more accurate as in this El Nino year concerning the severe storms that raked the West Coast.

than waffle on about evolution and what-have-you?

It is understood that you reject evolution based on a religious agenda. IT is NOT a waffle. I will continue to refer to evolution, because ir is as accepted part of objective verifiable science,

In philosophy, naturalism is the idea that only natural laws and forces (as opposed to supernatural ones) operate in the universe. In its primary sense it is also known as ontological naturalism, metaphysical naturalism, pure naturalism, philosophical naturalism and antisupernaturalism. "Ontological" refers to ontology, the philosophical study of what exists. Philosophers often treat naturalism as equivalent to materialism.
Naturalism_(philosophy)

True, hut these beliefs are subjective philosophical belief and NOT science, which is based on Methodological Naturalism.

Well, it seems like it.

Based on your lack of knowledge in science, and the rejection of science "it seems is the best you can dp,

You keep on harping on about "natural laws means that determinism rules", but then turn around and

say we do have free-will, but only limited.based natural deterministic factors,

Separate issue. Natural Determinism does not negate Freedom of choice entirely, but greatly lomots it Natural determinis is NOT the philosophy of Hard Determinism. There are at least several philosophies that acknowledge Natural Determinism, but support some sort of limited free will.

Makes little sense .. which is it .. do we have capacity to choose or not??

We have a limited ability to choose, based on the limiting factors of causal determinism. amd our nature of being an evolved human species.

 

[shunyadragon]

Dude, I don't even know what to say. You and I are both clearly old enough to have exercised all kinds of choices for years of our own free will. May as well be asking if people really breathe or think.

Odd post. First you do not need freedom of choices to breath and think. You may believe you make free choices, but you fail to acknowledge the causal deterministic factors that limit your choice.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

Odd post. First you do not need freedom of choices to breath and think. You may believe you make free choices, but you fail to acknowledge the causal deterministic factors that limit your choice.

Okay, so tell me then, what utmost significance is it to decide what you're going to wear in the morning? Or what you've decided to fix for dinner? Or how about going to catch a movie on your day off, instead of catching up on sleep or yard work? Everyone makes free choices. Sure those choices might lean heavily in favor of societal peer pressure for good or ill, and yes sometimes we hafta make choices to stick with a crummy job or situation out of necessity, but we still choose to make or not make them.

 

[shunyadragon]

Okay, so tell me then, what utmost significance is it to decide what you're going to wear in the morning?

First, I do not believe in Hard Determinism where the is no freedom in our choices.

Culture and weather. Some cultures have a wide range of choices, but other cultures like Islam may have a very limited range of coices,

Or what you've decided to fix for dinner? Or how about going to catch a movie on your day off, instead of catching up on sleep or yard work? Everyone makes free choices. Sure those choices might lean heavily in favor of societal peer pressure for good or ill, and yes sometimes we hafta make choices to stick with a crummy job or situation out of necessity, but we still choose to make or not make them.

Same basically as above, we may or may not have a range of possible choices, but limited by internal, circumstantial, cultural, and causal deterministic factors.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

First, I do not believe in Hard Determinism where the is no freedom in our choices.

Culture and weather. Some cultures have a wide range of choices, but other cultures like Islam may have a very limited range of coices,

Same basically as above, we may or may not have a range of possible choices, but limited by internal, circumstantial, cultural, and causal deterministic factors.

My point is we're living, thinking, feeling beings. Not Barbie dolls in a child's room. Not bees born into a hard-locked role. There's no guarantee of anything. Life is messy and a lot of it is up to chance, but it is what we make of it too.

 

[The Hammer]

Dude, I don't even know what to say. You and I are both clearly old enough to have exercised all kinds of choices for years of our own free will. May as well be asking if people really breathe or think.

I don't think free will exists and I can certainly breathe and think.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

I don't think free will exists and I can certainly breathe and think.

Then aren't you choosing to make that choice to not acknowledge your own free will?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Simple, the behavior of our solar system is predictable within a range of cause and effect events that vary the behavior of the planets like the gravitational effect of of comets and other heavenly bodies. Things are not exact, Science makes predictions of the variation in the orbits within a range of possible outcomes and the science predictions are accurate.

Weather prediction of future conditions vary but but predictions arec\ accurately within a range of possible outcomes up to a week, Because of the large number of variables the further in the future the wider range of possible outcomes, but within the climate models for each region. Chaos Theory has become increasingly important in computer modeling of weather prediction. Recently the predictions based on La Nina and El Nino years have become more accurate as in this El Nino year concerning the severe storms that raked the West Coast..

All very interesting, but what has any of that got to do with how our free-will is limited?

It is understood that you reject evolution based on a religious agenda..

Oh, for goodness sake. You keep saying this, but I've hardly mentioned deity.
I suppose you see my screen name, and then have the urge to pick, pick, nitpick.

Separate issue. Natural Determinism does not negate Freedom of choice entirely, but greatly lomots it..

You keep telling us this, but are unable to show us how. You just repeat "natural" .. "evolution"
.. "determinism" .. which could mean more or less anything.
You need to be more specific. HOW does it limit our free-will? What mechanism exactly?

Your examples above .. how do THEY limit our free-will? etc. etc.

We have a limited ability to choose, based on the limiting factors of causal determinism. amd our nature of being an evolved human species.

Repetition .. "causal determinism" .. "natural" .. "evolution" HOW does this limit our free-will?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..You may believe you make free choices, but you fail to acknowledge the causal deterministic factors that limit your choice...

Ha! I thought you said that you didn't believe that what we see as free-will is an illusion..
..but you imply it, with this statement !

 

[muhammad_isa]

..we may or may not have a range of possible choices, but limited by internal, circumstantial, cultural, and causal deterministic factors.

..so these factors mean that our choices are "an illusion" ... or do we really make them?