Do You Think You Would Regret.....

[roli]

No, but you can make a post, talk about scripture, and form an opinion without doing what Roli does: make a general statement, and then copy/paste a list of quotes taken out of context that may possibly or not relate to the statement made.
Just looking at the posts made by just about every other Christian on the forum, and Roli, there is a big difference. Every single one of his posts sounds like a bad regurgitation of an evangelistic tract. I would hope you don't see your posts that way

What is your definition of a Christian,
This is just a personal conviction of what I believe,much like many seem to have regarding their positions,opinions,views, whether they are associated to a theists position or a non - theists position,it still comes across fairly strong.

Is it possible for someone who is an unbeliever or atheist to express in an evangelistic manner with zeal and fervour, and maybe even conviction.
I see it all over the place.
But that would'nt be something you see in yourself would it ????
There are just as many non theist zealots as their are theists.
But again,just because a person says they are a christian does not make it so.
That stands for me as well,I'll let the word in which I stand define whetehr I am or not acting in the manner in which Christ calls us to.
But I apologise if I have offended anyone here, again I am trying really hard to be conservative and my intention is not to judge or preach.
But it comes across that way when I try to defend the views that some have towards God etc.
I will take your opinions and views and try to be a bit more conservative.

 

[roli]

I believe we comprehend them just fine.

Your greatest 'tresspass' as you see it, is not believing. But that's the problem.

I would like to know what harm would be done if we didn't believe. What if I did all things that Christianity (or many other religions) calls for: Peace, Love, Kindness, Understanding, doing good deeds, ect ect. What more is needed, then? Believing in God doesn't seem to do anything.

I can only speak from what the bible says in regards to those who don't believe,which says they will be condemned.
Again, to believe here is not just an intellectual ascent, but much more than what I think most really attribute belief to.
When God says you must believe,well, many then say I believe and that settles it.
Belief means to trust,adhere,rely and have confidence in. to move to action
So to believe in God ,Jesus Christ,etc. means to trust his word,his actions,and rely on the fact that Jesus is the only way to God,that he did actually die on the cross and that we are all under sin.
The moment one receives this truth by first believing,God sends his Holy Spirit in to the heart of very believer and thus gives us the assurance and the confirmation of what we believed is in fact truth and that we are his adopted as children
It is at that point that a believer is converted through a spiritual conversion.
The Holy Spirit converts a man,not the act of believing, reading , praying or even going to church
I don't believe any of us can comprehend our sin against God,because we can't comprehend his holiness,and that sin can not enter into his presence by his very nature.
When he sees a born again christian,he sees the righteous of Christ that has now been accredited to our account by the sacrifice of his blood placed on the believer.

 

[UnTheist]

I can only speak from what the bible says in regards to those who don't believe,which says they will be condemned.
Again, to believe here is not just an intellectual ascent, but much more than what I think most really attribute belief to.
When God says you must believe,well, many then say I believe and that settles it.
Belief means to trust,adhere,rely and have confidence in. to move to action
So to believe in God ,Jesus Christ,etc. means to trust his word,his actions,and rely on the fact that Jesus is the only way to God,that he did actually die on the cross and that we are all under sin.
The moment one receives this truth by first believing,God sends his Holy Spirit in to the heart of very believer and thus gives us the assurance and the confirmation of what we believed is in fact truth and that we are his adopted as children
It is at that point that a believer is converted through a spiritual conversion.
The Holy Spirit converts a man,not the act of believing, reading , praying or even going to church
I don't believe any of us can comprehend our sin against God,because we can't comprehend his holiness,and that sin can not enter into his presence by his very nature.
When he sees a born again christian,he sees the righteous of Christ that has now been accredited to our account by the sacrifice of his blood placed on the believer.

There is really nothing else to comprehend. I keep asking you why we can still be nice to humans and make good deeds, and somehow that isn't enough to God. A God that arrogant is not worth believing in. Tell me how a non-believer is any less moral than a believer, and why we should do anything more than doing good and contributing to mankind. What else is required? Nothing. A non-believer is not a sinner. So I suggest you stop saying it.

 

[MaddLlama]

Is it possible for someone who is an unbeliever or atheist to express in an evangelistic manner with zeal and fervour, and maybe even conviction.
I see it all over the place.
But that would'nt be something you see in yourself would it ????
There are just as many non theist zealots as their are theists.

I don't consider myself to be a zealot. I don't really have any beliefs about god at the moment, so it would be a little hard for me to be zealous about that. I am however, positive that Christianity is not for me, so I would stand by my beliefs, or non-beliefs if faced with hell.

But I apologise if I have offended anyone here, again I am trying really hard to be conservative and my intention is not to judge or preach.
But it comes across that way when I try to defend the views that some have towards God etc.

You may not intend to preach, but from where I sit, you seem to be doing little else but preaching. My point of view may be skewed, but most of your posts sound like I'm reading an evangellical tract.
I'm not asking you to change - you can keep doing what you like. It's not my position to tell you what to do. I am simply pointing out the impression that I have.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Order is what I am discussing here, please enlighten me as to how I have made God out of order

One of the major issues confronting Christianity today is the loss of LOVE as the main means of evangelizing. So many want to merely argue rather than follow Jesus' plan.

John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." NIV

Notice how Jesus never cites any particular doctrine... just love.

You simply CAN'T badger people into the Kingdom. It takes love. Lots and lots of love.

 

[roli]

There is really nothing else to comprehend. I keep asking you why we can still be nice to humans and make good deeds, and somehow that isn't enough to God. A God that arrogant is not worth believing in. Tell me how a non-believer is any less moral than a believer, and why we should do anything more than doing good and contributing to mankind. What else is required? Nothing. A non-believer is not a sinner. So I suggest you stop saying it.

Each of us knows very well what is deep in our hearts and what we do when nobody is watching,God is the other spectator
Despite our good works we have all sinned in God's eyes
It's what is in the heart that God judges
1Sa 16:7 — But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
Have you lied,stolen,hated,coveted, had sex outside marriage,violent,decieve.
Because our good deeds to God are filthy rags in comparison to being righteously accepted to God ,were not as good as we think .
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Pro 16:2All the ways of a man [are] clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
Paul a very devote man of the law said this:
Rom 7:18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

 

[UnTheist]

Each of us knows very well what is deep in our hearts and what we do when nobody is watching,God is the other spectator
Despite our good works we have all sinned in God's eyes
It's what is in the heart that God judges
1Sa 16:7 — But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
Have you lied,stolen,hated,coveted, had sex outside marriage,violent,decieve.
Because our good deeds to God are filthy rags in comparison to being righteously accepted to God ,were not as good as we think .
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Pro 16:2All the ways of a man [are] clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
Paul a very devote man of the law said this:
Rom 7:18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

I'm done with this. Sinning does not make us horrible people. We are humans. We cannot be perfect. We will make mistakes. That is not a valid reason to burn one for eternity. You are just preaching to us and quoting the Bible for the sentillionth time, and that will do nothing to prove your point

 

[roli]

One of the major issues confronting Christianity today is the loss of LOVE as the main means of evangelizing. So many want to merely argue rather than follow Jesus' plan.

John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." NIV

Notice how Jesus never cites any particular doctrine... just love.

You simply CAN'T badger people into the Kingdom. It takes love. Lots and lots of love.

I can see how many will run with that verse and think if they just love each other as we know love.
But the fail to bring in the scriptures that say we must have the love of God first to fully and unconditionally love our fellow man.
Can you love without serving God,yes of course,but only partially.
1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
You can't be taught of him if your not serving him
But what I am talking about is the love of God that is released into a christian when they receive Christ as savior.
It is a love for others unparalled with human love.
It can be mentioned but never experienced or even understood unless one is walking in relationship with Christ.
When the nature of man is transformed it brings on a whole new meaning,expression and expereince to love

 

[roli]

I'm done with this. Sinning does not make us horrible people. We are humans. We cannot be perfect. We will make mistakes. That is not a valid reason to burn one for eternity. You are just preaching to us and quoting the Bible for the sentillionth time, and that will do nothing to prove your point

Sinning does not make us horrible people to one another
But to God our sin keeps us from communing with Him,walking in his will
God never hated the sinner ,just the sin.
That is why he sent his son to pay for the sin debt we owed.
Once you have that redemption,or pardon,your forgiven and accepted
You refuse to hear what God says,but remain in your own ideas and that is fine.
I'm not here to change your mind,only you can do that.
You need to have a talk with God on your own

 

[UnTheist]

Sinning does not make us horrible people to one another
But to God our sin keeps us from communing with Him,walking in his will
God never hated the sinner ,just the sin.
That is why he sent his son to pay for the sin debt we owed.
Once you have that redemption,or pardon,your forgiven and accepted
You refuse to hear what God says,but remain in your own ideas and that is fine.
I'm not here to change your mind,only you can do that.
You need to have a talk with God on your own

I refuse? Absolutely not. God has been silent to me this whole time. I was a Christian for 14 years, and I asked God to help me. I got nothing from Him. He is the only one to blame.

Your reasoning will only drive people away from your religion. Keep it up.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I can see how many will run with that verse and think if they just love each other as we know love.

Stop for a moment. Get out of the "Spiritual Combat" mentality for a second. Take a deep breath and re-read my last post. You missed the entire point.

You can NOT badger someone into the Kingdom of Heaven. They have to be loved into the Kingdom.

Jesus looked at the sinner and instead of BADGERING them, he loved them. He even forgave them. Then he went and died for them.

Badgering is not a successful strategy for winning the lost. Really, really.

 

[roli]

I refuse? Absolutely not. God has been silent to me this whole time. I was a Christian for 14 years, and I asked God to help me. I got nothing from Him. He is the only one to blame.

Your reasoning will only drive people away from your religion. Keep it up.

I'm sorry to hear that's how you feel PaWz,but my reasoning has nothing to do with driving people away.
We all do a very good job of that ourselves,silence is often an experience we as christians encounter,but that is not to say God has abandoned us ,or left us hanging.
It only feels that way, he knows we are longing for him,.calling out to him in our own way,in our particular circumstance,but sometimes that silence or so it appears is really when God speaks to us the loudest,it's usually our souls are so over active with,anger ,worry,impatience,discourse and the like that we drown out that small still voice.
We expect him to respond when and where we desire and when those conditions or expectations are not met ,we then place God outside the box and there he remains.
But the beauty of this whole thing is he still remains knocking on the door of our heart,if we can only get over the offense and anger,we might just open the door and find him waiting and wanting to fill us with himself

 

[Booko]

If you did stand before God the moment you leave this life ,"Do You think you would regret the fact that you spent your life pursuing logic,reason,emperical evidence,refuting the christian theological doctrines ,evidence,historical/geographical studies,the bible,Jesus ,God Heaven,Judgement,hell punishment.

IMO there's a world of difference between refuting Christian theological doctrines and refusing Christ.

Theologians do their best with difficult subjects, obviously, but unlike Christ, they are all just normal fallible humans.

I can accept the idea that if I were a Christian, in the interest of unity of the Church it would be better not to put myself in opposition to it, but as I'm not a member of the Church, my hands are not tied in that regard.

I pursue logic and reason as tools that God has given to us that were intended to be used. I don't take it to the extreme and think they are the only tools we have. I'm not in the habit of refuting historical evidence, so nothing to excuse myself for their either.

Would you blame God for not following after him because of the hypocracy,all the denominations,the conflict between the christian community,the atrocities of historical religion and so on.......

I don't blame God for that now, so I've no idea why I would bother to after death.

Or would you be regretful,humble and ashamed that you made the wrong choices.

I seriously doubt I have everything 100% right, and I seriously doubt God does not realize that He created us finite and that we are not omniscient.

Would you at that point beg for mercy,or do you think you would submit to his decision of eternal punishment.
What would you do????

What is the point in begging for mercy? If God's justice is going to exceed his mercy, I don't know there's anything I could say that would change His mind about it. Such decisions are way above my pay grade.

 

[roli]

Stop for a moment. Get out of the "Spiritual Combat" mentality for a second. Take a deep breath and re-read my last post. You missed the entire point.
You can NOT badger someone into the Kingdom of Heaven. They have to be loved into the Kingdom.

Interesting, do you realize this whole life is a spiritual battle and Jesus in actuality commands us to place the spritual armour on Eph 6:12,not take it off,just a side note for your knowledge.
He says our struggles are not flesh and blood like many may think ,but it is spiritual in nature
He did love them into the kingdom by his death in hopes that they would love him back ,key word here scuba man, love him back ,serve him ,obey him etc.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[

QUOTE]Jesus looked at the sinner and instead of BADGERING them, he loved them. He even forgave them. Then he went and died for them.

He loved them yes ,that is the point of his death, but do you forget the strong words he preached and in a sense he badgered them to the extreme and by that they tried to kill him numerous times and eventuallly succeeded.
This love that you speak of sounds to me like your referring to some sugar coated,politcally correct type of love that just oozed with stroking words that made everybody fuzzy inside and never offended anyone,you must indulge yourself in the reading of scripture to know the scoop.

Badgering is not a successful strategy for winning the lost. Really, really.

Jhn 3:18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
I did'nt allude to such strong and seemingly offensive words with you as he did to the religious leaders.
It sounds to me you always go back to the love thing and many do, but it sounds like a very valid point to get hung up on but He came to demonstrate love by means of his death on the cross,not by his conservative,well groomed, semantics and awe inspiring linguistics Along with his gentle messages to those who would receive it,he preached strong to those who continued to justify,refute and disobey him,he preached judgement,punishment,sin, hell and along with love.
You must mention the whole gospel,not just portions that give you goose bumps

 

[Katzpur]

At my age I can honestly say that every day I give thought to my own death and how I will be judged. I think that like the sage in the old testament said, I will think or say Lord if you will count our sins, who will stand it? I hope that I am correct in believing that Christ died so that my sins be forgiven, knowing that I still have to avoid sin and the near occasions of it. I think I do my best, and thats all that can be wxpected of anyone. To me the command to love my neighbors is about the toughest of the commandments, but I truely try, and have grown away from judging people as I once did, believing that as I judge, so then will I be judged. I judge very lightly if at all. I'm a gay man and for me it's not an easy thing to think of the bigots, Oh well, they just don't know any better.

It sounds to me like as if you've got the really important parts down pat.

 

[MaddLlama]

This love that you speak of sounds to me like your referring to some sugar coated,politcally correct type of love that just oozed with stroking words that made everybody fuzzy inside and never offended anyone,you must indulge yourself in the reading of scripture to know the scoop.

Sounds to me that the love he's talking about is the kind that Jesus preached - you know, the kind of love that doesn't lead you to condemn people who don't see things your way, and not beat them with a constant stream of obvious, hard-nosed and obnoxious evangelism? The kind of love that lets you evangelize with your life and actions and not just regurgitated words?
But, hey, I'm not a Christian so what do I know about Jesus?

 

[UnTheist]

I'm sorry to hear that's how you feel PaWz,but my reasoning has nothing to do with driving people away.
We all do a very good job of that ourselves,silence is often an experience we as christians encounter,but that is not to say God has abandoned us ,or left us hanging.
It only feels that way, he knows we are longing for him,.calling out to him in our own way,in our particular circumstance,but sometimes that silence or so it appears is really when God speaks to us the loudest,it's usually our souls are so over active with,anger ,worry,impatience,discourse and the like that we drown out that small still voice.
We expect him to respond when and where we desire and when those conditions or expectations are not met ,we then place God outside the box and there he remains.
But the beauty of this whole thing is he still remains knocking on the door of our heart,if we can only get over the offense and anger,we might just open the door and find him waiting and wanting to fill us with himself

Your reason has everything to do with driving people away from what you believe in.
I wanted God to help me simply because I was depressed. I didn't ask for money, or a new car. It is ironic that when I gave up God, my depression diminished almost completely. I'll accept that It may have been a coincidence, but it seems God didn't want me to believe. Because I am happier now than I ever was as a Christian

 

[Scuba Pete]

Interesting, do you realize this whole life is a spiritual battle

II Corinthians 10:3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. NIV

Our battle is for the HEARTS and SOULS of the people. If you have lost sight of that, you are fighting a legalistic battle just because you can.

Ephesians 4:2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. NIV

There you have it: our command to be GENTLE!

 

[roli]

Sounds to me that the love he's talking about is the kind that Jesus preached - you know, the kind of love that doesn't lead you to condemn people who don't see things your way, and not beat them with a constant stream of obvious, hard-nosed and obnoxious evangelism? The kind of love that lets you evangelize with your life and actions and not just regurgitated words?
But, hey, I'm not a Christian so what do I know about Jesus?

I certainly am not in a place to condemn people, it's just not my purpose in life
But hey it's interesting how you spin this whole thing and make me into the judge,jury and executioner,but refuse to look at what I share regarding what the scripture says regarding those who refuse to believe and follow Jesus.
I see how you get your support from others,building yourself up,looking good among your peers here by adding your own twist on this whole topic and making me and all christians look like some heartless,insensitive,judgemnetal christian here.
That's ok though!!!
If that is the best you can do, it;s futile and it only prolongs the inevitable.
But please direct your finger pointing to God who will judge the living and the dead.
Listen to what JESUS says about condemnation.
John 3:18 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Man condemns himself, without any help from outside sources,it is not mine or God's purpose.
I am not condemning anyone here so please step down from your Christian bashing pulpit and stop making insinuating comments,that only seem to build your credibility among your peers.
Read the bible and you might well understand how Jesus conveyed his message

Again I agree with you,Jesus did love them into the kingdom,but he was also ridiculed,mocked,beaten,isulted, and persecuted by his own brotheren,those closet to him for the strong words he spoke,because ,get this, those who did these things to him were,jealous, threatened,guilty,convicted of their sin,religious on the outside liars and hypocrites on the inside,acted in ways that suited their own lifestyle and where contrary to Jesus' doctrine.
Jesus was apparently intrusive to the core to those who would not accept his teachings,commands, and him.
JESUS infringed on their personal space and that's all the message of the gospel does.

It's interesting that the Christian is the most sought after person in the world to be killed for what they believe and declare and I'm sure those who kill the christian have valid points as to why they do so. But they start out with offense,anger,bitterness etc

Why, do you think Christians have been persecuted and killed for centuries, is it the hateful,condemning message they declare or is it just to close to home to the listener's.
I mean it's a message of forgiveness, morality,righteous living love ,hope ,peace,eternal life,but also of sin righteousness,hell ,judgement, punishemnt.
I would bet to say it is the later message that the Christians declare that cause them to be killed and persecuted and made to look like intolerent,haters,who judge and condemn because of the message Jesus brought .
It pierced the heart of those who heard it and it brought ,conviction,anger,guilt etc.
It's not EVEN the Christian's message,we are just the messengers.

Your expressions and accusations and blame shifting only seem to spill over into the similar mind set that provokes those who kill the Christians around the world.
I mean it does not start with a thought,hey lets kill the christian,it's a thought that is fed and nurtured and then eventually takes people to that place of no return, murder
Mat 24:9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Jhn 16:2They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Jhn 15:19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you

Here it is right here,the reason many in Jesus' time would not turn to him and follow after him.
John 3: 19 And this is the condemnation (OR VERDICT), that the light (jESUS)has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

 

[Scuba Pete]

If you are to be persecuted, be persecuted for doing GOOD and not for alienating people due to your delivery. Don't be a stumbling block for people to come to Christ.