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Do you trust God?

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
God knows everything that has ever happened or that will ever happen so things do not happen that God does not know about.

Humans cannot go against God's will because everything that happens is according to God's will.
God does not necessarily want everything humans choose to do to happen but God allows them to happen.
Ahem . . .


God Doesn't Exist
  • If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
  • If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
  • If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
  • If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
  • Evil exists.
  • If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
  • Therefore, God doesn’t exist.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The rational explanation is that neither are messengers of god.
Why do you think that is a rational explanation?
Ah, so only Baha'u'llah can be a true messenger of god because Baha'u'llah says so.
Seems reasonable.
That is a straw man. I never said that as that would be completely illogical as it would be circular reasoning. Anyone can say they are a Messenger but that does not make them a Messenger.
Baha'u'llah is a true Messenger of God because God appointed Him to be a Messenger.
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Why do you think that is a rational explanation?

That is a straw man. I never said that as that would be completely illogical as it would be circular reasoning. Anyone can say they are a Messenger but that does not make them a Messenger.
Baha'u'llah is a true Messenger of God because God appointed Him to be a Messenger.
And who said that 'god' appointed him to be a messenger?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The point was that we don't allow "free" will, and because God makes laws that he expects to be obeyed, he also limits "free" will. People aren't allowed to freely do what they please.
God does not expect us to obey His laws. God hopes we will for our own sake but He knows that some people will break His laws. We always have a choice whether to obey the Laws or not because we have free will to choose.
But I wouldn't call breaking laws to be exercising ones "free will", since there is a cost.
The cost has nothing to do with it. We are still free to follow or break the Laws, knowing there will be a cost.
If a man holds you up and says "give me your money or I will shoot you" you are free to make a choice -- your money or your life.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The big deal and main focus when I was around them was to go out and "teach" the word... that the promised one had come.
I wonder why were you around them? Yes, the focus of those who have got their noses cut is to make other people also get their noses cut.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Ahem . . .

God Doesn't Exist
  • If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
  • If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
  • If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
  • If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
  • Evil exists.
  • If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
  • Therefore, God doesn’t exist.
* God is omnipotent and omniscient.
* God is not subject to morality since God is all-good.
* God is omnipotent so God has the power to eliminate all evil.
* God is omniscient so God knows whenever evil exists.
* God wants man to be free to choose so God gave man free will to choose.
* Man is free to choose between good and evil.
* God desires to eliminate evil and God does so by revealing Laws which if followed would eliminate evil.
* Some men follow those Laws and do good.
* Other men do not follow those Laws and do evil.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
"I'm infallible because I say I'm infallible. An infallible messenger can't possibly be wrong about his own infallibility because he's infallible. Infallible people are never wrong."

This is the kind of reasoning you find in Bahaispeak. It's amazing.
That is close but no cigar....

I'm infallible because I am a Manifestation of God so my will is identical to the Will of God. An infallible Manifestation can't possibly be wrong about his own infallibility because he's infallible. Infallible Manifestations of God are never wrong because they are infallible.

This is the kind of reasoning you find in Bahaispeak. It's amazing.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It's not much different than what born again Christians say. This is what the Bible says, and the Bible is true and inerrant. Then Baha'is tell them, "No", your Holy Book is not inerrant, because our inerrant Holy Book says so.
and the beat goes on and on and on and on....
I for one am tired of this religion stuff, but you never seem to tire of it.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Actually, the reasonable response would be that anyone and anything could be a message (messenger) from God. Because the determination as to what is a divine message has to be made by the person receiving it. No one else can.
Your argument presupposes the existence of said god, so it is therefore flawed.
In the absence of any evidence that the god in question even exists, then any claims to be a messenger of it can be dismissed.

Or do you believe that because I claim to be a messenger of the Great Green Arkleseizure, it is therefore reasonable to assume that I actually am a messenger of the Great Green Arkleseizure?

Also, it is a bit odd to insist that the only person able to judge the reasonableness of a claim is the person making it. Very odd, in fact.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I, at one time was religiously gullible. I trusted what religious people told me. I assumed God was real. So, with that assumption, the Baha'i Faith sounds reasonable. God sends different messengers as people progress in their spiritual development. And Baha'u'llah is the latest one. Sounds believable... assuming there is a God, and he sends messengers. But then I learned every messenger said different things. That some messengers denied the validity of some of the others... That each religion had different concepts of God.

Well to that, the easiest explanation is that each people made up their own Gods, laws and beliefs. And Baha'is kind of agree with that. They say that each messenger "originally" gave similar teachings. That only "social" laws were different due to the cultures and the times they were living. But the spiritual message was always the same. But people changed, warped, misinterpreted and totally screwed up that "original" message.

But how would we know? There is no "original" message. We are supposed to take Baha'u'llah's word for it. That all religions are one... in essence. And that he is from the one true God and has a message that will lead us all into a time of peace and harmony. All we have to do is believe... and obey and submit and do everything he says. And believe everything he says as being the word of God.

The continuing problem that Baha'is face here is how do they prove Baha'u'llah is really a messenger from God. And, to begin with, can Baha'is even prove there is a God. It's not easy when they deny other "messengers" as phonies for the same reasons some people reject their prophet.
From my conversations with them here (not really had much dealing with Baha'i on debate forums before), it seems that the claim itself is the evidence for the claim.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
"I'm infallible because I say I'm infallible. An infallible messenger can't possibly be wrong about his own infallibility because he's infallible. Infallible people are never wrong."

This is the kind of reasoning you find in Bahaispeak. It's amazing.
Indeed. I have not really had any dealings with them before joining this forum (certainly seems to have a very high proportion of Baha'i apologists) but they do seem to be the most credulous of all religionists.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Because I independently investigated it.

Independent Investigation of Truth
That is pro-Baha'i propaganda written by a Baha'i apologist.
It is not "investigation", it is "confirmation bias".

But I'll listen to your explanations...
1. What evidence do you have that any kind of god actually exists?
2. What evidence do you have that this god communicated with Baha’u’llah?

Your own words please, not links to partisan websites.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
No, I said that an omnipotent God can only do what is according to His nature.
For example:
God cannot be weak because God is all-powerful
God cannot be stupid because God is all-knowing
God cannot he foolish because God is all-wise
God cannot be hateful because God is all-loving

You can only do what is in your nature as a human but that does not mean you are omnipotent.
I am just as omnipotent as your god, in the context of our own natures.
You have already admitted that your god is not entirely omnipotent as it can only do what it is able to do. I suffer from exactly the same restraints.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Your argument presupposes the existence of said god, so it is therefore flawed.
Your response presupposes that you can determine the validity of someone else's subjective experience (a message from God). You can't. Only they can determine that.
In the absence of any evidence that the god in question even exists, then any claims to be a messenger of it can be dismissed.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of illegitimacy. This is simple, basic, logic.
Or do you believe that because I claim to be a messenger of the Great Green Arkleseizure, it is therefore reasonable to assume that I actually am a messenger of the Great Green Arkleseizure?
I believe I have no reason (or evidence upon which) to accept OR reject your claim. And I have no need to.

So why do you feel the need to reject other people's claims even when you have no evidence upon which to base that rejection?
Also, it is a bit odd to insist that the only person able to judge the reasonableness of a claim is the person making it. Very odd, in fact.
Only they have the evidence (of their subjective experience), so only they can legitimately judge it. And only they need to.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
God knows everything that has ever happened or that will ever happen so things do not happen that God does not know about.

Humans cannot go against God's will because everything that happens is according to God's will.
God does not necessarily want everything humans choose to do to happen but God allows them to happen.
You are contradicting yourself here.
If everything that happens is according to god's will, and humans cannot go against god's will, then nothing can happen that goes does not want to happen.

Only what god has willed can happen, therefore humans have no free will to do something different.
Don't worry, it is a common problem for religionists. You are heavily invested in a system that is inherently contradictory, so cognitive dissonance is required to reconcile the paradox, as we have just seen. You clearly and unequivocally explained that we cannot have free will, but I know that your reply will contain the assertion that we do have free will.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
That is close but no cigar....

I'm infallible because I am a Manifestation of God so my will is identical to the Will of God. An infallible Manifestation can't possibly be wrong about his own infallibility because he's infallible. Infallible Manifestations of God are never wrong because they are infallible.

This is the kind of reasoning you find in Bahaispeak. It's amazing.
Surely this is satire, yes?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Your response presupposes that you can determine the validity of someone else's subjective experience (a message from God). You can't. Only they can determine that.
Wrong. I am claiming that subjective claims can be verified or disproved. You are claiming that they must be accepted as reasonable, regardless.
Example.
A person tells me they are hovering 6 inches above the ground.
Observation suggests they are not. I can test this by unsuccessfully attempting to insert a sheet of paper between their feet and the ground.
You insist that my observation and tests are irrelevant because only what they believe is happening counts.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of illegitimacy. This is simple, basic, logic.
Regardless of the fact that it can be, absence of evidence is certainly legitimate grounds for scepticism.

I believe I have no reason (or evidence upon which) to accept OR reject your claim. And I have no need to.
Good for you.

So why do you feel the need to reject other people's claims even when you have no evidence upon which to base that rejection?
Only they have the evidence (of their subjective experience), so only they can legitimately judge it. And only they need to.
Firstly, there is evidence on which to reject claims about gods and their behaviour. It ranges from the complete absence of evidence for, and the failure of every attempt to demonstrate, the supernatural - though irrational claims - to the scientific and historical errors in holy texts.
Second, this is a "religion debate" forum. The whole point of it is to make and challenge religious claims. If you are uncomfortable with it, you know there the "log out" button is.
Finally, "subjective experience" is not "evidence". We know the brain can produce experiences that are entirely imaginary, despite seeming entirely real to the subject. (Or are you claiming that the liquid dragons seen by someone on acid actually exist simply because the person imagined them?)
 
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