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Do you understand the New Testament

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No its not by necessity. You dont have to interpret to translate. Only when it comes to theology people try to use that argument.
This is, by far, the best example of wishful thinking I've seen yet. You're just dead wrong here, because you want so desperately for the texts to be the Word of God.

One does have to interpret in order to translate, in order to come up with a contextual meaning that makes sense in the language one is translating to. sometimes there are no equivalent words. Sometimes there are idiomatic phrases that don't make sense to another culture. Those things all have to be decided upon by the translator so that the meaning is not lost.
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
This is, by far, the best example of wishful thinking I've seen yet. You're just dead wrong here, because you want so desperately for the texts to be the Word of God.

One does have to interpret in order to translate, in order to come up with a contextual meaning that makes sense in the language one is translating to. sometimes there are no equivalent words. Sometimes there are idiomatic phrases that don't make sense to another culture. Those things all have to be decided upon by the translator so that the meaning is not lost.

Me llamo es AK4 y no me gusto azul color. Now translate that and its my name is ak4 and i dont like the color blue. do you need to interpret that or translate? Translate. Oh but the biasness of theologians and the church will interpret that that i said my name is ak4 and i dont like the ANY OF THE colors of blue. But that isnt even close to the meaning of what i said. And besides if i said (or in the case of God, inspired someone to say for me) i like do like the color teal in other books and scrolls, why would they translate AND interpret that i dont like any of the colors of blue?

You should see the obsurdity in this since you say you are an universalist. How can God inspire someone to say (including Jesus) He will save the world/everyone in many other books (including the same book) and then somehow say somewhere else that they will be tormented for ever and ever? Now thats just bad translating and interpretation! Is it that hard to see? Why is this so difficult for you all? Its a contradiction to say He will save all and then say He will torture them for ever and ever. Its a contradiction to say He is full of mercy and love yet He will torture His enemies for ever and ever and throw on top of that that we are to forgive and bless our enemies yet He wont do the same. Is God a God of confusion/contradictions? NO!! Recognise bad translation and interpretation when its right there in front of you. You dont have to be a "scholar" to see this crap.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
No its not by necessity. You dont have to interpret to translate.

Wrong. Because plenty of sentences do not translate word for word. The line in question literally reads "into the eternities of eternities." That makes NO sense in english. We don't say that. So a translater has to get the "sense" of the passage across. The sense is clearly eternity.
 
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Oberon

Well-Known Member
Me llamo es AK4 y no me gusto azul color. Now translate that and its my name is ak4 and i dont like the color blue. do you need to interpret that or translate?

What a horrendous argument. You give one line that is easily translatable, and argue that therefore any line can be translated so? Some lines ARE easily translated. Others are not. For example, in ancient greek the typical way to give someone's name is to say "name to him John." Makes no sense in english. So instead a translator takes the meaning of the phrase, and we get "and his name was John."
 

free spirit

Well-Known Member
Me llamo es AK4 y no me gusto azul color. Now translate that and its my name is ak4 and i dont like the color blue. do you need to interpret that or translate? Translate. Oh but the biasness of theologians and the church will interpret that that i said my name is ak4 and i dont like the ANY OF THE colors of blue. But that isnt even close to the meaning of what i said. And besides if i said (or in the case of God, inspired someone to say for me) i like do like the color teal in other books and scrolls, why would they translate AND interpret that i dont like any of the colors of blue?

You should see the obsurdity in this since you say you are an universalist. How can God inspire someone to say (including Jesus) He will save the world/everyone in many other books (including the same book) and then somehow say somewhere else that they will be tormented for ever and ever? Now thats just bad translating and interpretation! Is it that hard to see? Why is this so difficult for you all? Its a contradiction to say He will save all and then say He will torture them for ever and ever. Its a contradiction to say He is full of mercy and love yet He will torture His enemies for ever and ever and throw on top of that that we are to forgive and bless our enemies yet He wont do the same. Is God a God of confusion/contradictions? NO!! Recognise bad translation and interpretation when its right there in front of you. You dont have to be a "scholar" to see this crap.

You may be completely wrong by thinking that he is speaking of all people. Consider this: when he speaks that all Israel will be saved, you obviously will conclude all those that belong to that group of people will be saved, but then we read in Romans 9: 6 to 8, "But it is not as though the word of god has failed. for they are not all Israel who are descendant from Israel; neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but; 'Through Isaac your descendants will be named.' that is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants." So by saying all, he did not mean all who belong to that group, but he meant all that fulfilled his established criteria of Israel will be saved. And if we apply the same rule to all his saying, then we will get the ones that will be saved, and the ones that will not be saved.
And eternity of eternity or for ever and ever, it has to be seen as a matter of speech, to emphasize the severity of the penalty; AK4 we should not wrangle about words for we read in 2 Timothy 2: 14 - 15, I remind you of these things, and solemnly charge you in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth."
Why are you so taken by contradictions, we say that the sun come up in the morning, you and I know that it is not correct but we still use the expression. there are a lot of things like that in the bible, we should know which are armless to our spiritual life and which are not.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Me llamo es AK4 y no me gusto azul color. Now translate that and its my name is ak4 and i dont like the color blue. do you need to interpret that or translate? Translate. Oh but the biasness of theologians and the church will interpret that that i said my name is ak4 and i dont like the ANY OF THE colors of blue. But that isnt even close to the meaning of what i said. And besides if i said (or in the case of God, inspired someone to say for me) i like do like the color teal in other books and scrolls, why would they translate AND interpret that i dont like any of the colors of blue?

You should see the obsurdity in this since you say you are an universalist. How can God inspire someone to say (including Jesus) He will save the world/everyone in many other books (including the same book) and then somehow say somewhere else that they will be tormented for ever and ever? Now thats just bad translating and interpretation! Is it that hard to see? Why is this so difficult for you all? Its a contradiction to say He will save all and then say He will torture them for ever and ever. Its a contradiction to say He is full of mercy and love yet He will torture His enemies for ever and ever and throw on top of that that we are to forgive and bless our enemies yet He wont do the same. Is God a God of confusion/contradictions? NO!! Recognise bad translation and interpretation when its right there in front of you. You dont have to be a "scholar" to see this crap.
You're still treating the texts as if they were a single writing. They are not. They are different writings by different authors living in different communities written out of different contexts. One author will say one thing out of one context, and another will say another thing out of another context. By putting them together, we can get a sense of the Tradition of the Church, which we see is a widely diverse collection of people, speaking different languages and coming out of different cultures -- each one speaking truth in his/her own way.
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
You may be completely wrong by thinking that he is speaking of all people. Consider this: when he speaks that all Israel will be saved, you obviously will conclude all those that belong to that group of people will be saved, but then we read in Romans 9: 6 to 8, "But it is not as though the word of god has failed. for they are not all Israel who are descendant from Israel; neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but; 'Through Isaac your descendants will be named.' that is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants." So by saying all, he did not mean all who belong to that group, but he meant all that fulfilled his established criteria of Israel will be saved. And if we apply the same rule to all his saying, then we will get the ones that will be saved, and the ones that will not be saved.

No, the scales of the delusion of who are jews or israelites fell off of me about a year ago and what a hoax that is!! I feel deeply sorrowful for those who are still deluded by this lie. And what a lie it is!!! So with that out of the way-- "all israel"--- Israel (the true church of God) all will be saved and be in the kingdom in the coming eon (possibly the next two?). After judgment and the consummation of the ages all will be saved then and then God will be all in all.

And eternity of eternity or for ever and ever, it has to be seen as a matter of speech, to emphasize the severity of the penalty; AK4 we should not wrangle about words for we read in 2 Timothy 2: 14 - 15, I remind you of these things, and solemnly charge you in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth."
Why are you so taken by contradictions, we say that the sun come up in the morning, you and I know that it is not correct but we still use the expression. there are a lot of things like that in the bible, we should know which are armless to our spiritual life and which are not.

Ive seen this admonition and constantly ask myself why bother, they wont believe anyway unless God has chosen them to anyway. Or i would say to myself whats the point, i would show someone a truth of God and they would believe or get it. I dont try to teach at all. If anything i try to show someone where the apostate churches and theologians have contradicted Gods Word or how a translation has been biased or something, sometimes show them something that the churches dont teach on to show how their doctrines contradict the Word of God. I gave up a couple of months ago. I stopped posting on here for several months. Why i started again? I dont know. Anyway this comes to mind a lot

1Co 1:21 -For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Yup the foolishness of me posting (gee i wonder if someone will cut and paste that line to use against me) anything may be pleasing God.

Why am i stuck on the contradictions? Because its the contradictions that pervert the truth of God and that has "many blaspheming the name of God" or hating God. Tell me, is there a gray area with God or is it either black or white-- with Him or against Him---easy to get into the kingdom or hard---easy to find the treasure/pearl or one must search diligently for the truths of God?

The words that are seemingly unharmful and may not concern spiritual life are actually the critical ones that can differentiate between blaspheming God or not. When churches sing "and He shall reign for ever and ever" they actually blaspheme God because that is not scriptural at all. Is singing that helpful to ones spiritual life to believe a lie like that?
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
-- each one speaking truth in his/her own way.


Really? So how many "truths" are there? I believe its only says there is ONE truth.


Oh and yes all these "collections of books" must be in one accord so therefore you have the whole "collection" making ONE context.
 

free spirit

Well-Known Member
Ive seen this admonition and constantly ask myself why bother, they wont believe anyway unless God has chosen them to anyway. Or i would say to myself whats the point, i would show someone a truth of God and they would believe or get it. I dont try to teach at all. If anything i try to show someone where the apostate churches and theologians have contradicted Gods Word or how a translation has been biased or something, sometimes show them something that the churches dont teach on to show how their doctrines contradict the Word of God. I gave up a couple of months ago. I stopped posting on here for several months. Why i started again? I dont know. Anyway this comes to mind a lot

1Co 1:21 -For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Yup the foolishness of me posting (gee i wonder if someone will cut and paste that line to use against me) anything may be pleasing God.

Why am i stuck on the contradictions? Because its the contradictions that pervert the truth of God and that has "many blaspheming the name of God" or hating God. Tell me, is there a gray area with God or is it either black or white-- with Him or against Him---easy to get into the kingdom or hard---easy to find the treasure/pearl or one must search diligently for the truths of God?

The words that are seemingly unharmful and may not concern spiritual life are actually the critical ones that can differentiate between blaspheming God or not. When churches sing "and He shall reign for ever and ever" they actually blaspheme God because that is not scriptural at all. Is singing that helpful to ones spiritual life to believe a lie like that?
I do sympathize with you AK4 because I am doing the same thing, but I do not wrangle about the meaning of the words, I do however see the unrighteousness of the stories that are reported as God's word.
I consider all of humanity the victims of Satan schemes; and the clergy, well they are the victims par excellence for they have swallowed the lie and teach the lie to others. Like the lie in the lord's prayer defaming God and his righteous work.
The following story is another example of defamation against the apostles of God here is what I mean.

(III) In the book of Acts 16 – 3, we read: “Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.”
We should be horrified by this false accusation of hypocrisy attributed to Paul. I ask, has anyone read the book of Galatians? Paul was not able to do it; the spirit of the Lord would not have allowed him to circumcise Timothy. Or do we think that Satan retains some control over the chosen servants of God? If that were so, none of us would be able to become bond-slave of the Lord. And if the servants of our Lord are so weak, and insecure, how could they face and overcome persecution or martyrdom without negating the faith?

It has been suggested to me however, that Paul is excused for in 1st Corinthians 9 – 22, he says, “I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some.” This is true in principle, if you apply it to yourself… But there are limits that believers should not cross, because if we do, those that you are trying to win for Christ may rightfully think that they have won you.

And if we are also to believe Galatians 2 – 11 to 15, in which Paul (conveniently forgetting what he said in 1st Corinthians 9 – 22,) allegedly rebuked Peter, “For Peter was not straightforward about the truth of the gospel.” And so we easily get the impression that hypocrisy was widespread among the apostles. If that is true, (and I do not believe that it is) what hope is there for us? So you see, Satan’s concealed or subtle schemes are design to discourage “our hope of glory” by hindering our repentance toward God and trapping the unwary.

(Because I know that some believers “and I was almost one of them” take comfort over the sins of David and the alleged weakness of the Apostles, to justify their own shortcomings.) Believe me! If this is your thinking you are deluding yourself, for you have fallen into the comfort of Satan’s trap. “Repentance of our shortcomings is the only way to escape the comforting captivity of Satan.”
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Really? So how many "truths" are there? I believe its only says there is ONE truth.


Oh and yes all these "collections of books" must be in one accord so therefore you have the whole "collection" making ONE context.
There are as many versions of truth as there are points of view.

One grand context, yes, but one that is comprised of many threads (like a woven rug), each one having a color and texture all its own. It's good to look at the whole, but many times it's necessary to look at the constituent parts, independent of the whole. If something's wrong with the fuel pump of the car, you don't spend much time thinking about how that affects the grip of the tires on the road. You concentrate on the fuel pump.
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
Wrong. Because plenty of sentences do not translate word for word. The line in question literally reads "into the eternities of eternities." That makes NO sense in english. We don't say that. So a translater has to get the "sense" of the passage across. The sense is clearly eternity.

Somewhat true. Yet there are translations that literally translate the words because no interpretation is needed

11 And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons (concordant literal new testament)

11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages (youngs literal)

And by the way the "sense" of the passage is showing that the first ages or eons is contrasting the second ages or eons like how it states the King of kings.
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
You're still treating the texts as if they were a single writing. They are not. They are different writings by different authors living in different communities written out of different contexts. One author will say one thing out of one context, and another will say another thing out of another context. By putting them together, we can get a sense of the Tradition of the Church, which we see is a widely diverse collection of people, speaking different languages and coming out of different cultures -- each one speaking truth in his/her own way.

Tell me, who REALLY is the Author? Who inspired the writers to write what He wanted? God. God wrote one book and thats the whole Word of God. Its no difference when researchers research and do the work of many different things and writes and give their work to the author and the author puts his name on the cover as the author.
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
There are as many versions of truth as there are points of view.

One grand context, yes, but one that is comprised of many threads (like a woven rug), each one having a color and texture all its own. It's good to look at the whole, but many times it's necessary to look at the constituent parts, independent of the whole. If something's wrong with the fuel pump of the car, you don't spend much time thinking about how that affects the grip of the tires on the road. You concentrate on the fuel pump.


LOL yet the goal of the car to make it work so you cant take out or add or substitute the wrong fuel pump (add/subtract to the Word, mistranslate/interpret the meaning of one passage that dont fit the rest of scripture). The fuel pump must match perfectly in this case.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Tell me, who REALLY is the Author? Who inspired the writers to write what He wanted? God. God wrote one book and thats the whole Word of God. Its no difference when researchers research and do the work of many different things and writes and give their work to the author and the author puts his name on the cover as the author.
The authors are the authors. God may be the inspiration, but God is in no way "the Author." Those authors wrote several documents, which were, at a much later time, agreed upon by the Roman and Eastern churches and compiled into a collection of "the texts we can read in church." Each canon differs from the others, at least slightly.

Does your Bible contain, for example, the gospel of Thomas? Or the Didache? Or any of the Maccabees? Or Tobit? Or the Esdras? God "wrote" those books, too.

It's no different than teachers coming up with an "approved reading list," and stamping it as such, under the name of the school.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
LOL yet the goal of the car to make it work so you cant take out or add or substitute the wrong fuel pump (add/subtract to the Word, mistranslate/interpret the meaning of one passage that dont fit the rest of scripture). The fuel pump must match perfectly in this case.
That's precisely what Biblical scholarship accomplishes.:)
It does that by studying the constituent parts, as things by themselves. As I said, tires don't figure into the making of a fuel pump. In the case of the Bible, what "fits" is what is, historically, the Tradition of the Church.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Somewhat true.
No, actually true.

Yet there are translations that literally translate the words because no interpretation is needed

There is no such interpretation. Show me a translation of the NT which has the sentence "name to him John." Plenty of phrases simply DO NOT make sense when literally rendered.

11 And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons (concordant literal new testament)



11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages (youngs literal)

Here are your two "literal" translations, and yet they disagree. Each of them renders the greek in a different way (smoke is a better translation, by the way). Also, the word "of" in smoke "of" their torment is not in there. It is expressed by the genitive case. But the genitive in greek could also have an ablatival sense, so it is possible that the phrase really means "from" not of. However, this is a far less likely reading, so the translators rightly put "of" instead of "from" in their. However, the point is that even in these "literal" supposedly word for word translations, interpretations have been made (hence "age" versus "aeon"). The point is, the best translation for eis aionas aionon would get across the sense of the accusative extent/duration of time with the emphasised by the genitive, a clear expression of eternity.

And by the way the "sense" of the passage is showing that the first ages or eons is contrasting the second ages or eons like how it states the King of kings.
How would you know what the "sense" is unless you have studied greek? What do you know about typical or atypical temporal clauses in ancient greek?
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
I do sympathize with you AK4 because I am doing the same thing, but I do not wrangle about the meaning of the words, I do however see the unrighteousness of the stories that are reported as God's word.
I consider all of humanity the victims of Satan schemes; and the clergy, well they are the victims par excellence for they have swallowed the lie and teach the lie to others. Like the lie in the lord's prayer defaming God and his righteous work.
The following story is another example of defamation against the apostles of God here is what I mean.
I know what you mean by not wrangling over words but that is exactly how Satan and his ministers (humans) have subtley perverted the Word. Think about it, how clever is satan? Heres a great example----God inspired the apostles and writers of the NT to use the greek word "pas" which can mean all, every, and as many as. How can Satan pervert the Gospel/the good news to mankind with just this one word? Well you already whats been done. “Well that word also means as many as so God is not the Saviour of all men”. Why did God inspire that word “pas” and not some other word where there can be absolutely no doubt what Gods plan is? Well think, if God did that then Satan wouldn’t have a way to pervert the Gospel/good news and scripture could possibly be broken like what is said here

Matt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

So you have that one word perverting the Gospel. now satan and his ministers (humans) add another word like aionos to mean everlasting and eternal instead of age and ages and more perverting of the Gospel is done. Now they make age-lasting chastisement into eternal damnation and wheeeew---see what im saying.

Also something to think on is this verse from Jesus

Matt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

These are Christians who “worship” Him as not being the “Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” because of the doctrine of hell in which they change the meaning of just a couple of words. They worship Jesus in vain. They worship Him as a trinity because words were added to translations. They worship Him by saying “He shall reign for ever and ever” which is unscriptural again because of the changing of the words. Its these “little” wrangling of words that make a BIG difference. When Christ says that they worship Him in vain He basically is saying that there is a wrong way to worship Him. Do you think those who worship Him wrong (maybe because of a little word or phrase) will make it in the kingdom? No.

We should be horrified by this false accusation of hypocrisy attributed to Paul. I ask, has anyone read the book of Galatians? Paul was not able to do it; the spirit of the Lord would not have allowed him to circumcise Timothy. Or do we think that Satan retains some control over the chosen servants of God? If that were so, none of us would be able to become bond-slave of the Lord. And if the servants of our Lord are so weak, and insecure, how could they face and overcome persecution or martyrdom without negating the faith?

And so we easily get the impression that hypocrisy was widespread among the apostles.

The Paul and Peter thing…..well I take it as true because it is the Word of God and also I do know for a fact that learning all the truths of God is a learning experience and that incident may have occurred. All the truths of God was not given to the apostles and disciples at once at Pentecost you know. They were still learning and yes I do believe Peter could have done this. We are admonished over and over to overcome and the apostles were no different. There is the christain doctrine of once saved always saved in this life that is taught by the church. This is another false doctrine. Therefore Peter could have slipped for a little bit being in the company that He was keeping. Is it true? Only them and God really knows. But what does it teach us? Well in Peter case it shows that one can fall from grace if one is not careful. In Saul/Paul case it shows how God can change even the worst of us to one of His chosen vessels and we still would “have to fight the good fight and finish the race” or be overcome by satan if we are not careful.

Of course God has already predestinated those who He has chosen. He knows who is already saved, but we don’t and that’s why we don’t know if satan will overcome us or if we will fully overcome. Paul said it best here

Philippians 2:12-13
12 ….. work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (why?). 13 For (because) it is God (not you, not man but God) which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

And if God has willed for you to be chosen, you will be chosen, but you really do not know until the resurrection. If God did not will for you to overcome the world then you will be raised in judgment
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
The authors are the authors. God may be the inspiration, but God is in no way "the Author." Those authors wrote several documents, which were, at a much later time, agreed upon by the Roman and Eastern churches and compiled into a collection of "the texts we can read in church." Each canon differs from the others, at least slightly.

Does your Bible contain, for example, the gospel of Thomas? Or the Didache? Or any of the Maccabees? Or Tobit? Or the Esdras? God "wrote" those books, too.

It's no different than teachers coming up with an "approved reading list," and stamping it as such, under the name of the school.

Wow lets just throw God out of everything then huh? Yes those churches did "choose" by inspiration which books are to be in the bible and they also were perverted by satan to add other books that dont stay within the "theme" of the rest of the Word thats why the catholic church continue to have i think 77 books in their bible that have brougth about more false doctrines like praying to Mary for forgiveness instead of God Himself....Hmmmm do you see the connection yet? Those books were dropped, why? because they pervert the "theme" of the scriptures. God inspired those books to be dropped or not included, but you will still throw out God for man.

LOL the didache? lol really thats a good one.
 

free spirit

Well-Known Member
Matt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

These are Christians who “worship” Him as not being the “Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” because of the doctrine of hell in which they change the meaning of just a couple of words. They worship Jesus in vain. They worship Him as a trinity because words were added to translations. They worship Him by saying “He shall reign for ever and ever” which is unscriptural again because of the changing of the words. Its these “little” wrangling of words that make a BIG difference. When Christ says that they worship Him in vain He basically is saying that there is a wrong way to worship Him. Do you think those who worship Him wrong (maybe because of a little word or phrase) will make it in the kingdom?


Hooooooo! AK4 you really do not understand, because you are not in the spirit, For if we worship him "in spirit and truth," or in the Spirit of Holiness; it does not matter, or matter little, for eternity of eternity, means a long time that is all.
Please step back and look, there is the written word, and there is the Spirit of Christ in your heart. What is in your heart is stronger than that which is written. in other words if you are Holy the written lie does not change your Holiness.

The Paul and Peter thing…..well I take it as true because it is the Word of God and also I do know for a fact that learning all the truths of God is a learning experience and that incident may have occurred. All the truths of God was not given to the apostles and disciples at once at Pentecost you know. They were still learning and yes I do believe Peter could have done this. We are admonished over and over to overcome and the apostles were no different. There is the christain doctrine of once saved always saved in this life that is taught by the church. This is another false doctrine. Therefore Peter could have slipped for a little bit being in the company that He was keeping. Is it true? Only them and God really knows. But what does it teach us? Well in Peter case it shows that one can fall from grace if one is not careful. In Saul/Paul case it shows how God can change even the worst of us to one of His chosen vessels and we still would “have to fight the good fight and finish the race” or be overcome by satan if we are not careful.
You speak like one that does not know God nor felt Christ presence in your thinking at any time. Peter and Paul are confirmed apostles of God, and if you know their history, and the protection that Christ gives to his servants you would not say they probably did that, i tell you it is impossible for them to have done that. Because when the Holy Spirit comes in your heart you change, you see the world through a new pare of eyes. You know that you are in this world but you are not longer of the world. If someone tells you that your father is a murderer would you believe him just because it has been written in the news paper? Your spirit will tell you otherwise if you really know your father.

And if God has willed for you to be chosen, you will be chosen, but you really do not know until the resurrection. If God did not will for you to overcome the world then you will be raised in judgment

No AK4, Because You do Know, for you have passed from death into life. read what effective worship means to me.

EFFECTIVE WORSHIP

We all at some time, either alone, or within an assembly have taken part in worship, but in response to a Samaritan woman, Jesus revealed the requirements for an effective worship. We read in John 4 – 20 – 26: “Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus said to her. “Woman believe me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the father. You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the father in spirit and truth; for such people the father seeks to be his worshippers. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to him, “I know that the Messiah is coming, (he who is called Christ;) when that one comes he will declare all things to us.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
The above scripture on the surface appears to be straightforward, but how do we do that, seeing that we are of flesh, and our perceived truth is not necessarily the truth?

Wisdom dictates that we should not venture in the realm that is beyond our grasp. First we should analyse our own spiritual makeup, for we should have an intimate knowledge of ourselves, for if we were created in the image of God, we should know which part of us is in the image of God, before we can understand what lies beyond.

In the book of Genesis 1 – 26 and 27, God laid the foundations of the character and purpose of humanity, for we read: “Then God said, Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. And God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”

So according to the above scripture we have the image of God in ourselves, but unfortunately man’s imaginative and artistic skill fashioned God to resemble himself, male and female, and some of us even elevated animals as the form to worship. Others worship some object like the sun, the moon, the earth, or nature itself. Needless to say that they all are in error, because it is not the object, or creature, or our superficial appearance or gender that bear the image of God, but it is the essence (spirit) of God in us that bear the image of God.

It isn’t difficult to identify the spirit in us that bear the image of God; because he has not been hidden in some dark place, but he is in the most forefront of our lives, if anything it is his ever-exposure that makes him invisible as it were.

For with his essence we are able to think, formulate plans and be creative, to have the power of the word means to be living souls. Just consider without this Godly essence we would be like animals, living in the limitation of instinct, and not living from the essence of unlimited freedom and intelligent reason.


So the God given ability to formulate reason with words is what makes us in the image of God, for he created all things by the power of his word, and like him we also plan and create things out of the reasoning power of our words. The ability to speak intelligent and creative words is truly what makes us living souls; therefore it is the breath of life itself. (Genesis 2 – 7.)

We all know that man was not content with the special status that God had allotted to him, because man was enticed by Satan to covet the likeness of the wisdom of God, by knowing good and evil. Genesis 3 – 5 – 6, records the advent: “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be open, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, (gratification of the body) and that it was a delight to the eyes, (gratification of the senses) and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, (gratification of the ego) she took from its fruit and ate, and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.” And Genesis 3 – 22, confirms what took place. “Then the Lord God said, behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil.”
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free spirit

Well-Known Member
From post 459

To AK4
Moving a step further towards the understanding of ourselves we must realise that the source of coordinate actions of the body and precise utterances, reside in the spirit, there is no other plausible location. Have you ever searched your inner self to find the source of your words? For if you could find it you would be staring in the face of god, with a small “g” because it would be your own face you would be looking at. Our spirit has the ability to be immensely active, continually creating thought without disturbing the body, in our dreams for example, or in our private thought, he is the tenant of the body, and his presence and activity keeps our body alive, “for the body without the spirit is dead.” Our spirit and soul is so intertwined that to separate them is only possible to God.

We cannot see the soul but we can see and hear the affect of the soul, it can be either good or bad, because it knows both. Therefore it stands to reason to conclude that we are spiritual creatures covered with a body, (the apostle Paul calls it a tent) and our thoughts and words are the evidence that our essence bears the image of God.

A loving relationship either in the flesh or in the spirit is always based on communication; for how can anyone claim to have a relationship without talking to each other, or how can anyone fellowship with those that entertain adversary thought and or, behaviour, that cause offence to one’s own character. So the exhortation recorded in the scriptures “You shall be holy, for I am holy” is an invitation to fellowship with him.

Therefore the soul has to become holy to meet and fellowship with a holy God. Ephesians 4 – 23, is very explicit with what we have to do, for we read: “And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind.” In other words, the soul must cleanse itself from the word of inequity, which is the integral and living evil side of our soul, which uninvited floods our mind; with the covetousness of immorality, boastfulness, jealousy, greed, fear, anger, envy and ambition.

However with the guidance of the Holy Spirit abiding in us, we are now able to suppress and put to death our unclean and undisciplined thoughts. And replace them with the discipline of love: With its manifestation of joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, meekness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Wisdom also demands that we understand the complex identity of our soul, which is formed by the spirit of our conscience, and the spirit of our mind, sharing control over our will and body, but the most important part of the soul is our conscience. For it is an independent judge of all that we do or say, it is also a passive but persuasive controller of our unfolding lives. (Man or woman without a conscience unquestionably would tend to be an evil person, and unfortunately there are many in the world whom have no conscience.)

On the other hand the spirit of our mind is a calculating self-centred personality, reacting to the world’s unfolding opportunities of possible gains, fear, and desires, often overriding the better judgement of the conscience. But through our conscience’s retrospective judgement and shame for past evil words or deeds, we learn that the spirit of our mind in its natural state is a slave of corruption, sold into bondage to sin. The apostle Paul said in Romans 7 – 15, “For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practising what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.” According to that we are sinners because in our unregenerate state we have no effective control of our will. But now with the accomplished work of redemption of our Lord, and the gift of his grace he has set our will free; therefore we are now no longer obligated to obey sin. As 1st Peter 4 – 2, also says, “So as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.”

To have our will freed from the shackles of sin is very important to God, for he sacrificed his son to redeem the freedom of our will. But only at our request he sends the spirit of his son into our heart to sanctify our conscience, and thereby setting the conscience free from condemnation for past sins. Also giving our conscience the right to change the course of our life, and to enter the consciousness of God’s truth. Hebrews 10 – 1 to 18 is explicit for it says among other things: “For having once been cleansed we would have no longer consciousness of sins.”

Our body is also fundamental to worship God, 1st Corinthians 6 – 18 to 20, is very explicit in describing the importance of our body for it says. “Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.”

At our request our body has become a vessel in which God dwells. But now it has to be made holy by the strength and determination of our new sanctified conscience, because we now are able to put to death the body’s unholy appetites, as Romans 12 – 1 – 2 says, “I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable (useful) to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.” The importance of keeping our body holy is obvious, for God will not openly use a defiled vessel.

Without a doubt, if we have exercised the new freedom and power of our sanctified conscience, and grasped the importance of our body as the vessel of God, and made his mind our own, we have inadvertently already experienced the joy ofworshipping in spirit and truth. (Or consciousness of holiness)

As I said before, the above glorious cleansing of our body and soul is only possible through the gift of freedom of our will, brought about by the presence in our conscience of the Holy Spirit. Our gratitude and thanksgiving belongs to him, who is our priest, and advocate, who also patiently lead us back to our God and father. Having therefore by his grace reached sanctification, of our spirit, (conscience) of our soul, (mind) and of our body, (vessel) we can now have the living hope of fellowship and enter beyond the veil of holiness in the presence of our God and father.

The attitude of worship will express, respect, obedience, and service, all wrapped in an uncovetous loving relationship with our Heavenly Father so that we may know his will, regarding the work of service that we must zealously render on his behalf to our fellow men. Because, if we have been sanctified completely, in other words “if we are dead to sin and sin is death to us” the love that God holds for the human race has become our own, and we have become partners with his son Jesus Christ to spread among men the gospel of salvation.

Because “Truth” in God’s eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, therefore, the day will come when only “Truth” will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say that“Truth” is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.

In John 14 – 6, Jesus said, “I am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the father, but through me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the “Truth” because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because he is the eternal Word = life

It is fitting for the wisdom of God to sum it all up with this one phrase.
“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Glory to God
 
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