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Do you understand the New Testament

AK4

Well-Known Member
Your post 412 does not make sense to me, I speak two languages and I know when I translate something if I translate the message word for word it doesn't make sense, I have to use words that are no there and a lot of time turn the sentences up side down. the important part is not the word that one uses, but the important part is that the spirit of the message is correct.


Yes this is true, but if you do your homework you will see how the church/theologians and many translations have murdered the Gospel with there rendering of the true meaning of the word aion and aionios and olam. Read this article by J. Preston Eby, scroll down to AGES. heres an excerpt The Savior of the World series by J

But we need not remain in darkness, for fortunately the Word of God tells us precisely what this Greek word means. Too few have taken the time or energy to consider the real meaning of AION. It is the word from which we get our English word eon. Eon, according to Webster, means "a long period of TIME." Many attempts have been made to prove that eons are eternal. But this is more than a grave error, it is the height of stupidity, for the divine Author of the blessed Bible has not Himself used them in that way. AION nowhere means eternal! Its simple meaning is an age. In its plural form it means ages. This fact can be unquestionably and incontrovertibly demonstrated from numerous New Testament passages. A glance at any Greek concordance proves that the noun AION, or AGE, is not the synonym of eternity. A study of each case would make a library; so, leaving this task to the reader, we must content ourselves with adducing a few specimens to demonstrate the fact. It is usage that determines meanings - THEIR usage, not ours; the meanings that the holy prophets and apostles gave to their words rather than those that our English translators may try to give. Let me illustrate.
The term forever (and its equivalents, eternal and everlasting) often occurs when it cannot possibly mean unending. In the story of Jonah one is surprised to hear him say while in the belly of the fish, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever" (Jon. 2:6). But he was in the fish only three days and three nights! When a Hebrew slave loved his master and did not wish to go free at the end of the seventh year, we read, "... His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever" (Ex. 21:6). Of course, that couldn't be longer than his life span. Again, when Solomon built the temple unto the Lord, he began his prayer of dedication with the statement, "I have surely built You a house to dwell in, a settled place for You to abide in for ever" (I Kgs. 8:13). And the Lord answered Solomon, "I have heard your prayer and supplication that you have made before Me: I have hallowed this house, which you have built, to put My name there for ever" (I Kgs. 9:3). But Solomon's temple lasted for only about 400 years! And it was never in God's mind to dwell there for ever!
Here is something that ought to be clear to any intelligent, honest man. A word that is used to mean in one case three days and nights, in another case to mean a man's lifetime, and in still another case to mean a period of about four centuries, surely does not mean unending or eternal, no matter what English word is used to translate it. USAGE DETERMINES MEANING.
Dear reader, it is high time to stop acting the fool. It is high time to cease from exalting ourselves and our ignorant imaginings above the knowledge of God. It is high time to bow in humble submission to His Word and cease our own
 

free spirit

Well-Known Member
Yes this is true, but if you do your homework you will see how the church/theologians and many translations have murdered the Gospel with there rendering of the true meaning of the word aion and aionios and olam. Read this article by J. Preston Eby, scroll down to AGES. heres an excerpt The Savior of the World series by J

I know I am in full agreement with you on this one. Please read post 321, on thread "something bad Jesus did"
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yeah, at least it's honest.
Honestly, I understand the NT. I understand that they had motorized transportation, because it says that "the disciples were all in one Accord." They also used drugs, because it tells us that Stephen was stoned. so, I guess when we're told to have the same mind in us that was in Christ Jesus, that means we're supposed to be tripping all the time. Indeed, we're told that some of the early saints and church fathers were known to have fits of Ecstasy...:cover:
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
AK4,
This reading into scripture is so puzzling:
No, He will keep His covenant. Abraham is the father of those who believe.
What is it that they believe in? Do all the gentiles and Israelites believe in His name?
Thats gentiles and israelites right?
What, where did you get that from?

Gen 12:2
I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.
Gen 12:3
I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."


These are those that believe! You are a israelite or "jew" if you believe.
:rolleyes::eek:This gives us the right to call ourselves children of God. The Israelites and the Jews are Abraham children.
Again
It says "all israel will be saved". So there you have it. Throughout the OT God says He will save His people and His people.
That’s what I believe.
is anyone who believes, which is accredited to them as righteousness so
That is of your own harvest, you are reading it into it. Very nice thought of your. but it isn’t in the text.
.

Isa 26:10
Let grace be shown to the wicked, [Yet] he will not learn righteousness; In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly, And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.


Isa 26:14
[They are] dead, they will not live; [They are] deceased, they will not rise. Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And made all their memory to perish.

Many won’t even be there.
Psa 37:20
But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away.


Psa 1:5
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Psa 1:6
For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the ungodly shall perish.


No broken promise there. Besides look at what you say "I believe that the covenant to the Israelites still stands because it was an everlasting one", yet God says countless times He will save His people (and you state it is the House of Isreal). Now of this "house" is He only saving those who are in the living room (no pun intended) or how about the kitchen? Or is He going to save the whole house?
:D

What I try to point out to you that Paul uses the all in these sense all Israel, the Lord is clear that His covenant saves many but not all, Isaiah and King David and the Lord Himself is clear many not all.;)
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Honestly, I understand the NT. I understand that they had motorized transportation, because it says that "the disciples were all in one Accord." They also used drugs, because it tells us that Stephen was stoned. so, I guess when we're told to have the same mind in us that was in Christ Jesus, that means we're supposed to be tripping all the time. Indeed, we're told that some of the early saints and church fathers were known to have fits of Ecstasy...:cover:

*runs fingernails on a chalkboard*
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Hey Emiliano (and probably sojourner)

Here is some notes from my friend that i think you might find interesting

The problem with your friend's notes is that they neither accurately represent the greek phrase nor the "rules of translation"

The greek is εις τους αιωνας των αιώνων (your friend left out the preposition).

In a word for word translation, this could be rendered as "into the eternities of the eternities." Now you have a literal translation. But it doesn't make any sense. So what translators do is try to render the meaning of the phrase while staying as close as possible to the text. Readability usually has slight preference (sometimes more) over faithfulness to the actual syntax and lexical usage of the text.

The meaning of the phrase is clear. In english we would say for all eternity, or for ever and ever.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Honestly, I understand the NT. I understand that they had motorized transportation, because it says that "the disciples were all in one Accord."
This is why knowledge of the actual greek is important. It actually says "mazda." Your mistake is based of off an error in the textus receptus.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
This is why knowledge of the actual greek is important. It actually says "mazda." Your mistake is based of off an error in the textus receptus.

I follow the text variant "volvo."
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
The problem with your friend's notes is that they neither accurately represent the greek phrase nor the "rules of translation"

The greek is εις τους αιωνας των αιώνων (your friend left out the preposition).

In a word for word translation, this could be rendered as "into the eternities of the eternities." Now you have a literal translation. But it doesn't make any sense. So what translators do is try to render the meaning of the phrase while staying as close as possible to the text. Readability usually has slight preference (sometimes more) over faithfulness to the actual syntax and lexical usage of the text.

The meaning of the phrase is clear. In english we would say for all eternity, or for ever and ever.

Even "reliable" wikipedia can see the nonsense in translating aion into for ever and ever or eternities ever. How can you have MORE THAN ONE ETERNITY?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

"No scripture is of its own interpretation" right? Even J. Preston Eby sees the nonsense of calling it eternities

I am aware that some people will oppose us on the grounds that the Greeks of today use the phrase "the aions of the aions" meaning eternal, everlasting. A Greek gentleman told me several years ago that "the ages of the ages" is how they express eternity in Greek, and that when the book of Revelation says "and the smoke of their torment ascends up to the ages of the ages" (Rev. 14:11) it means FOREVER. Ah, that sounds convincing, conclusive, final and unanswerable, does it not? But precious friend of mine, in studying Bible language we are studying ANCIENT GREEK, not MODERN. The Greek language in two thousand years has changed to such an extent that the ancient tongue is altogether unintelligible to a modern Greek. The fact is, for over a thousand years, up till the year A.D. 1453, Greek was almost unknown or forgotten in most of Europe. Even in Italy, which formerly had been dominated by Greek, it became almost unknown. Ancient Greek has been a dead language for 1500 years! Anyone who knows anything at all will at once see the utter ridiculousness of this form of argument. Ancient and modern Greek are as different as day and night. As well might we teach our children the English of 2,000 years ago, and then expect them to be proficient in modern English, as to try to apply modern meanings to ancient Greek. The older the English, the more unintelligible it becomes. The spelling changes, word meanings change, sentence structure changes, until finally one is hopelessly lost in a morass of indecipherable hieroglyphics. Even in the four centuries since the translation of the King James Bible, what changes have taken placer "Thee" and "thou" have been replaced by the more familiar "you" and are no longer used except in classical literature and religion. "Let" meant to "restrain or prevent" in King James' day; now the word means exactly the opposite, to "permit or allow"! So with Greek. Ancient Greek is a dead language, while modern Greek is a living language, with about as much similarity as there is between German and English.
It was the false doctrines of the apostate Greek Orthodox Church that caused the meaning eternal to be placed upon the modern Greek phrase "the ages of the ages." And don't think for one moment, dear friend, that religion doesn't influence language! The English word "hell" once meant "a dark hidden place" but Church dogma has through the years caused the word to take on an altogether different connotation. Word meanings do change! And religious dogma has effected many such changes!
So usage is the fundamental key to unlocking the meanings of ancient Greek words. That the expression "the ages of the ages" cannot mean an endless succession of ages, or eternity, is clearly revealed by comparing Rev. 11:15 with I Cor. 15:24-28. In Rev. 11:15 our Lord is said, in the Greek text, to reign "for the ages of the ages" but in I Cor. 15 His reign is said to end. He does not reign "for ever and ever" though He does reign "for the ages of the ages." As the Son, God reigns unto the ages of the ages through a process of subjecting, subduing all things unto Himself. When that work is completed and there is nothing more in all God's vast universe to subdue and reconcile unto Himself, God reigns no longer as the Son, but as Father He shall finally and eternally be ALL IN ALL.

In scripture, the way God expresses "eternity" is by the phrase or some close variant "no end". (Lk. 1:33; Dan. 7:14; Isa. 9:7). Theology and the church corrupted the Gospel when they "try to render the meaning of the phrase while staying as close as possible to the text." To say that God will torment/punish/destroy most of His creation for, not one or two or three, but multiple eternities (ridiculous sounding aint it) is obsurd. This is the god they worship? Where is the Gospel (Good news) in that? They even "rendered" the word used for chastisement to try make God into some horrible monster to make their theology or doctrines work.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Even "reliable" wikipedia can see the nonsense in translating aion into for ever and ever or eternities ever. How can you have MORE THAN ONE ETERNITY?

You can in Greek, because greek works differently than english. If you can't read greek, find someone who can and ask them if you don't believe me. In greek, the passage literally reads "into the eternities of the eternities." However, this literal translation makes no sense. So, a good translator will do the next best thing and give you what the phrase means.
 
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Oberon

Well-Known Member
Theology and the church corrupted the Gospel when they "try to render the meaning of the phrase while staying as close as possible to the text."


Have you ever tranlasted before? Not only are ancient greek and english two different languages, each with particular idioms, means of expressions, syntax, etc, they are also seperated by a vast cultural and chronological gulf. ALL translations BY NECESSITY must involve some change and interpretation because NO literal translation (especially of an ancient language) would be readable.

If you don't like that, learn greek.
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
Have you ever tranlasted before? Not only are ancient greek and english two different languages, each with particular idioms, means of expressions, syntax, etc, they are also seperated by a vast cultural and chronological gulf. ALL translations BY NECESSITY must involve some change and interpretation because NO literal translation (especially of an ancient language) would be readable.

If you don't like that, learn greek.

No its not by necessity. You dont have to interpret to translate. Only when it comes to theology people try to use that argument. Even ancient greek differs some from modern greek. And of course there is No word for word translation. Now you say interpretation involves particular idioms, means of expressions, syntax, etc right? And in keeping with context and meaning of the whole Word of God, which contrary to what sojourner fails to understand that ITS all one giant book really, to make the meaning of that verse in Revelations mean eternity or for ever and ever throws it out of the context of scripture (notice i didnt say bible--those are just translations). The meaning of eternity/everlasting/eternal doesnt fit scripture at all. Although ive been doing this alot lately, and i hate using other peoples words to speak for me, heres yet another interesting line from someone

The word eon will be strange to some. It mustn’t be any longer. This noun and its adjective ("eonian") appear in the New Testament over 190 times (in the original Greek) as aion and aionion. Why haven’t many recognized them in our English versions? Because "expert translators" have decided to interpret rather than translate. More on this in a moment.
No two words in the history of man have been so tortured as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.
Eternal torment is built on the sand of mistranslation, slipped easily upon saints who would like eternal torment to be true, if only to anoint themselves "divine messengers" on a "great commission," mandated "by God" to lord fear and power over lesser men under the misnomer: "evangelism."
It is where the King James and other versions unaccountably use eternal and everlasting (for aionion) to describe the chastisement of the wicked that a false Scriptural veneer is lent to an otherwise insane (and inane) concept.
 
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