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Do you understand the New Testament

AK4

Well-Known Member
I have heard of many gullible faithfuls been manipulated by unscrupulous pastors, they are so much under the pastor and his associates influence that they have no will of their own left, a very dangerous situation indeed.
please remember the muss suicide of gullible Americans in Columbia I think? in the 1960's. dangerous religious sets strep's the believer of his individuality, like JW, or the LDS, or the exclusive brethren; in America there is a good breading ground for such groups.

This is very true some people are very gullible and one has to be guarded to the devils deceitfulness. We are told to test the spirits (that’s also these ministers and pastors) and everything is confirmed by mouth of two or three witnesses—this includes scripture verses. Everything must have a spiritual match and not contradict anywhere or anything else. Believe me, I still have my individuality and was once caught in the web of half truths the worldwide church of God and what its minions and sisters teach. But thankfully I did as commanded and “COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE” (yet it was not I who did it, it was God who through circumstances, gave me the power to will and to do/leave “MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT” . Basically He did this for me and I love Him for it.)
 

free spirit

Well-Known Member
TO AK4

your last posts were a lot clear about the lack of free will, which it is not that we do not have free will, but rather we are shown God's choice; and if you know God's choice you be crazy not to take it.
But there are some who turn away by willfully sin against God's choice.


emiliano has posted me the following three phases which sums up what I hold to be correct.

emiliano answer that, Man has free will: otherwise counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain.


And this one: Those words of the Apostle are not to be taken as though man does not wish or does not run of his free will, but because the free will is not sufficient thereto unless it be moved and helped by God.


There is the argument that accepting that humans have free will means that we believe that God is not Almighty, but this is not the case, what this means is that we can disobey.

In retrospect of my experiences I know that God was at work in my life. In retrospect I say because at these various times I was not aware of God using a stranger to admonish me not to lust after a beautiful girl walking on the other side of the road. that was 46 years ago, and God did it again 15 years ago this time there was a women dressed in leader with her backside exposed and everyone stopped to look at that, so i too turned to look were everyone looked and a total stranger 40 years my junior told me that was not for me to look at. But this time i knew that God used again a stranger to keep me from sinning.
So the question is what was that forced the strangers to admonish me, only me, not to look?

Have you read my article of "the first fruits" post 664 I would appreciate your comments about it.
 
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AK4

Well-Known Member
Well he answered that to you already and it is that the concept of sin been our fault and not God is unacceptable to many people and this is due to several reasons, the main one been that God is obliged to save all as He created evil, so is God’s fault that we choose our free will to do what is bad/harmful.
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I have more to say to you something you said earlier in this thread when you said that it was Paul theology on the saving of All and Jesus never said any thing like this, but i will get that later.

As for the above you are misrepresenting what ive said. Not really I, but what the scriptures say on this. God (not I) holds Himself responsible for correcting His creation. And yes God made Himself obliged to save all. He stated it thousands of time. And He does not lie. The King James has “he can not lie”. The King James says, “God, that cannot lie,” But that is not what it means, that’s not what it says. It doesn’t say in the Greek that He “cannot” lie, it says “does not.” It’s a negative, can’t - don’t. But it’s not that He can’t, but He doesn’t. God doesn’t lie. If you believe that God lies, then you might as well throw your Bible away. You might as well throw your religion away.

God created satan---“he was a liar from the beginning” “the crooked serpent” etc etc. Even if satan had a free will or not to “rebel” against God---God still created him and since God is all knowing, all powerful, omnipotent etc etc God would have had the knowledge beforehand that satan would rebel. And God would have had the foreknowledge to know that satan would trick Eve before He (God) even created her.

So who is responsible? Who gave us this experience of evil etc etc? No let me go another direction and you decide if you fit this scripture with your doctrine of free will


"…oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God [‘as a god’] sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God [‘is a god’]" (II Thes. 2:4)

The American Heritage College Dictionary:
"free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice. 2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will."
My Meriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary/Eleventh Edition has an even more precise definition:
"free will n. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention."
It is useless to have a study on this term "free will" unless we stick to a strict, concise and precise definition of the term. As can be seen from our dictionaries, "free will" does not have for a concise or precise definition the ability to "make choices." Yet this is the way it is often defined.

Notice that our dictionaries are specific in stating that it is "FREE choice" that is the definition of "free will," rather than just "choice" alone. To be an expression of "free will," choices must also be free. Free from what? We just read it:
  • Free from "PRIOR CAUSES."
  • Free from "CONSTRAINT."
  • Free from "EXTERNAL CIRCUMSTANCES."
  • Free from "FATE."
  • Free from "DIVINE WILL."
  • Free from "DIVINE INTERVENTION."
Those who would argue for free will, however, refuse being held to these precise and concise definitions. They want the mere ability to "make a choice" to be considered an act of "free will." Well it is nothing of the kind. Making a choice has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of "free will." This is easily demonstrated. Computers make "choices." They can make trillions of choices per second. It would take a trillion people to make that many choices in a second. All that these marvelous machines do is make choices.
Now then, will anyone contend that computers have unprogrammed and uncaused, free wills? So now we have proof that making choices is not the same as "free will."

Now if man has all those abilities, then you are right, we are responsible and not God.

Edit-- Also let me add, If you knew exactly who and what Jesus Christ is and about His Father then you'd understand why Jesus, before He created anything, died for us and why He took on the responsibility of His creation. And if you believe in the trinity then youll never know how why He did this
 
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AK4

Well-Known Member
emiliano answer that, Man has free will: otherwise counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain

Oh really? So let me throw that back at people who think this. Lets say man has a free will with NO counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments. Now what? Is their will still free from ANY outside source or influence? Since all is of God, is their will free from God? Besides, again, free will is not choice. But lets say it is as emiliano says and compare it to what the scriptures teach.

Now God brought Israel out of Egypt and spoke to Moses saying:

"Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people for all the earth is Mine: And ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak unto the children of Israel" (Exodus 19:5-6).

Here then is the response of the people to God’s proposal:

"And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him. And all the people answered together, and said, ALL THAT THE LORD HAS SPOKEN WE WILL DO. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord" (Ex. 19:7-8).

What external cause beyond their control do you suppose forced the nation of Israel to say that all that the Lord spoke they will do? Or do you suppose they made this momentous decision based solely on some fictitious freedom of the will? No. God caused them to make this decision based on great fear. (Remember Peter and the disciples?)
"And ye said, Behold, the Lord our God has showed us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God does talk with man, and he lives. Now therefore why should we DIE? For this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any more, then WE SHALL DIE" (Deut. 5:24-25).

So there we have the cause, and the cause was GOD.

"For who is there of all flesh, that has heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? Go you [Moses] near, and hear all that the Lord our God shall say: and speak you unto us all that the Lord our God shall speak unto you; AND WE WILL HEAR IT, AND DO IT" (Deut. 5:26-27).

Say, did you notice that the people were so fearful that they agreed to do everything God commanded BEFORE they even knew what it was God had commanded? That is real motivating, will-causing fear!
Was God impressed by this overwhelming response of the people to be obedient and obey God? Let’s see:

"And the Lord heard the voice of your words, when ye spoke unto me, and the Lord said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto you: you have well said all that they have spoken. O THAT THERE WERE SUCH AN HEART IN THEM, THAT THEY WOULD FEAR ME, AND KEEP ALL MY COMMANDMENTS ALWAYS that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever"(Deut. 5:28-29).

Does God really believe that Israel now will obey Him and do all that He commanded them? Hardly. Why not? What is the problem with these people? Is there "will" not working properly? No, there will is working perfectly—God scared them half to death and that fear CAUSED them "to will" to say they would be obedient to God. Why then is this decision of theirs to be obedient, not going to work? Because there is NO "such an HEART in them," that’s why. Is there any possibility that Israel will be able to follow through and perform obedience to God according to their own power of the "will" to do so?

"And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall sleep with your father; and this people will rise up and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will FORSAKE ME, and BREAK MY COVENANT which I have made with them"(Deut. 31:16).

"And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the Lord, and served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, and the gods of Syria, and the gods of Zidon, and the gods of Moab, and the gods of the children of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines, and FORSOOK THE LORD AND SERVED NOT HIM" (Judges 10:6).

As we all know Israel did utterly corrupt themselves. The whole generation, which left Egypt, died in the desert and never did inherit the promise land. And those who entered into the land of promise were driven into captivity for their evils and sins. But how did God know they would do that? Was it just a good guess? No, God not only prophesies the future, it is God Who brings about the future. Israel’s will was not "free" to say or do anything. Israel’s history was all of God.
Did the nation of Israel have the power to determine their own will and hence their own destiny? Or did God control their destiny? And do we have a statement of Scripture for proof? Yes, it was God, and not Israel’s free will that took them where they went and determined their future:

"But it shall come to pass, if you will not hearken unto the voice of the Lord your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes which I command you this day; that all these curses shall come upon you, and overtake you…" (Deut. 28:15 thru 19).

Later God told Moses which course of action Israel would take: obedience and blessings or disobedience and cursings. God then prophesied that Israel would be disobedient and utterly corrupt themselves. Once God pronounced which way the would go, then that is the way they had to go.
"Free will" was not even an option, because they had no free will.
And so, Who is it that is responsible for all of these curses that will come upon Israel? None other than "the LORD." Israel’s "will" was not free and was therefore helpless to prevent what "the LORD" had stated WOULD HAPPEN:
"The LORD shall send upon you cursing…" (Deut. 28:20).
"The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto theee…" (Ver. 21).
"The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption…" (Vers. 22-23).
"The LORD shall make the rain…" (Ver. 24).
"The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten…" (Vers. 25-26).
"The LORD will smite thee…" (Ver. 27).
"The LORD shall smite thee…" (Vers. 28-34).
"The LORD shall smite thee…" (Ver. 35).
"The LORD shall bring thee…" (Vers. 36-47).
"Therefore shall you serve your enemies which THE LORD shall send against thee…" (Vers. 48-58)
"Then the LORD will make your plagues wonderful [extraordinary]…" (Ver. 59).
"Moreover HE [the LORD] will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt…" (Vers. 60-63).
"And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people…" (Ver. 64).
"And the LORD shall bring you into Egypt again…" (Ver. 68).

God has provided us with hundreds of Scriptures which plainly in great detail state what He would, and will do, with and to the major nations of the world. And yet billions of Christians believe that man (all mankind) possesses a God-given ability (called free-will) by which all mankind can thwart the very words, declarations, pronouncements, and detailed prophecies which God has spoken and determined beforehand, absolutely will happen just as He has stated. And even when this total contradiction is pointed out to them, virtually none of them see a problem with it.
 

free spirit

Well-Known Member
TO AK4
Yes we know that God is everywhere and in everything, and we all also are in his hands.
But does that mean that whatever I do is his doing?
In other words are my bad deeds as well as my good deeds caused by his manipulation?

AK4 what arm am I doing to myself and to God by believing that I have a free will?

Also remember that Jacob (Israel) resisted God and he was blessed. So did he resisted by his own free will or was the God in Jacob resisting God. Abraham faith was tested, but how can it be tested if he had no free will.

I do believe however that those who are chosen to be his instruments, are been shaped according to the purpose of his will, often this shaping causes sorrow, for all discipline is sorrowful but after having endured the discipline of the Lord we would have a holy character and ready to serve him. In this respect I totally agree with you.
 
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AK4

Well-Known Member
TO AK4
Yes we know that God is everywhere and in everything, and we all also are in his hands.
But does that mean that whatever I do is his doing?

You have to look at it like this. We have mans reasoning verses Gods Word. And according to the scriptures, yes ultimately everything is His doing. Except you are doing it and He guides/leads/inspires you through circumstances to choose something, in other words He influences your choices for His good pleasure whether if its good (as in Jesus and the Apostles or Prophets) or whether if its bad (what may seem bad to us (man) in what may be in reality a good thing towards the plan of God i.e. Josephs brother selling him into slavery (bad in our eyes) but it was part of Gods plan to preserve life (Gen 45:5) which was a good thing . I know you believe that only by Him you can overcome sin right? Right. But since we all are born now without “such a heart in us” to overcome sin and need the power of the holy spirit to overcome we are virtually by design sinning machines so God can put circumstances before you (seen or unseen, conscious of or unconscious of, past or present) where YOU CHOOSE to sin or do bad (is this by your fable free will? No because you had circumstances influencing your choice, whether good or bad, and if something influences your choice/will, then your choice/will is not free. Hence no FREE will.

Which then bring in who is ultimately responsible for it all. So if your will is influenced, its not free, which means who or what influenced it? Lets says as like in Josephs brothers it was something bad and evil. I think we all will agree that it was bad. Read chapter 37 of Genesis and see if anything caused/influenced them to do bad. Now it doesn’t directly say satan had a hand in influencing them but whether he did or didn’t matters not. In the end what does Joseph say which agrees with all other scriptures when it involves mans fabled free will?
"Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: FOR GOD DID SEND ME BEFORE YOU TO PRESERVE LIFE" (Gen. 45:5).
Notice it was God all along, His invisible hand rather if He sent satan (as like He did with Job) or even without satan and He influenced their carnal minds with things that incited their jealousy. ALL IS OF GOD. Now honestly do you see ANY ounce of FREE will here? Do you believe God had this whole episode planned but Josephs brothers could have thwarted this if they used their “God given fabled free will” and choose not to sell Joseph?

In other words are my bad deeds as well as my good deeds caused by his manipulation?
AK4 what arm am I doing to myself and to God by believing that I have a free will?
Manipulation is such a bad word because it insinuates that God, your Creator, the One who gave you life, dares has the audacity to interfere in your life. How dare He try to carry out His plan for His creation which in the end will be nothing short of paradise beyond belief or their imagination? I have other plans for my life and God shouldn’t interfere/manipulate it!!!

See what this doctrine of free will says/does? Actually its more of questioning the Sovereignty of God. By believing you of yourself have the will to do anything, produce anything, have your destiny in your own hands etc etc you eliminate God, even a purpose for Him and make yourself a god or THE god. Think about it. See how many false church doctrines need this unscriptural doctrine to support what they teach. Someone on their own accepting Christ as their Saviour, hell, tithing, rapture, etc etc.



Also remember that Jacob (Israel) resisted God and he was blessed. So did he resisted by his own free will or was the God in Jacob resisting God. Abraham faith was tested, but how can it be tested if he had no free will.

Free will/free choice is not your will or choice. We have choices and we have a will. Jacob just like anyone else can resist Gods will because that is how God made our hearts right now. But just as with Jacob and will be with everyone else no one can resist His purpose. So yes God had already put it in to Jacob to resist Him and brought about circumstances to where it happened the way it did.

As with Abraham, think about it. God, who is the giver of the gift of faith (here is your cause/influence on Abrahams will), not man by his fabled free will, knew the outcome before hand and Abraham with the influence of faith, given by God, on his will gets tested and passes. Now if God is the giver of faith and He already prophesied the outcome beforehand, how much testing of Abrahams faith is God testing?

I do believe however that those who are chosen to be his instruments, are been shaped according to the purpose of his will, often this shaping causes sorrow, for all discipline is sorrowful but after having endured the discipline of the Lord we would have a holy character and ready to serve him. In this respect I totally agree with you.

Okay you are getting it for those who are chosen but what about those who are not but were made as vessels of dishonor. If God purposed for in order for Joe Schmoe to finally here the calling by having Pete Peterson to murder Joes daughter, therefore making Pete a murderer---was Pete not shaped according to the purpose of His will or did Pete do this on his own? If you say Pete was influenced by satan, well there goes Petes free will and since God purposed this to happened, wouldn’t He use satan to influence Pete throughout his whole life to finally choose (this is not by a free will, but by an influenced will) to kill Joes daughter. Unbeknownst to all three parties (Joe, Pete, and satan) that this is all in Gods plan. I didn’t just make this up you have examples all in the Word of scenarios like this. And God will plainly say it was all by Me. God calls the King of Assyria a rod in my hand to kill/punish His people and then God kills the King BECAUSE the king got haughty and thought he did it by HIS OWN POWER in other words by his own free will.
 

free spirit

Well-Known Member
TO AK4
Yes; I agree with you for he is in charge.
I can compare him to the law; For the law is holy, is good and it is for our protection, but if you break that holy law it will became your merciless enemy.
I cannot see God creating evil as you say, but I can see God creating the law and what is outside of his law is evil.
The following article will share some light on the subject.

AUTHORITY AND THE LAW





It is universally understood that authority and the law go hand in hand, because authority given or received to be effective has to be based on law.

We all know that from the very beginning, humanity had to obey the law of God, Adam’s life was dependent on obeying that one law, and ever since, the law occupies first place in everything. It is as if God and the law are one. The law therefore is the will of God, the scripture of PSALM – 40 – 8, is a revelation of this important truth for it says, “I delight to do thy will, O my God; thy law is within my heart.”

The apostle Paul is specific in explaining the relationship between God, the rulers of our country and the law, for he wrote in Romans 13 – 3 to 6, “For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behaviour, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God (the law) to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God (justice,) an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. Wherefore, it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God (the law) devoting themselves to this very thing”. We can confidently say then, that as much as it is humanly possible our rulers are also one with the law, and the highest office in the land is the embodiment of the law of the people he represents.

In Matthew 8 – 7 to 10, the Roman centurion recognised the power and authority of the law, for we read. “And Jesus said to him, I will come and heal him, but the centurion answered and said, Lord I am not worthy for you to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I, too, am a man under authority (of the law,) with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, go! And he goes, and to another, come! And he comes, and to my slave, do this! And he does it. Now when Jesus heard this he marvelled, and said to those who were following. Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel”.

In the above scripture the centurion draws a parallel between the authority invested in him through the law of the Roman Empire, and the authority of the law of the heavenly Kingdom, and through his great faith he is fully assured that Jesus has only to speak the word to be instantly obeyed in the spiritual realm.

Also the chief priests were aware that Jesus had to be working by a given authority, because his teaching had irrefutable wisdom and the miracles demonstrate his authority in the spiritual realm, but the chief priests (in contrast to the centurion) regarded the authority in Jesus as an adversary to their own authority, and therefore they were at enmity with him and so they questioned him, for we read in Matthew 21 – 23 to 27, “And when Jesus had come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him as he was teaching, and said, “By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?” And Jesus answered and said to them. “I will ask you one thing too, which if you tell me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?” And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, if we say, from heaven, he will say to us, then why did you not believe him? But if we say, from men, we fear the multitude; for they all hold John to be a prophet. And answering Jesus, they said, we do not know. He also said to them. Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”

Jesus in the above scriptures points to the only two possible source of spiritual authority, which are, the religious authority that man bestows on man, and the heavenly authority that God bestows on man. We have no doubt that believers and non-believers, anywhere in this world, recognise the structure of religious authority and the ranks of its administration members. We also know that those who make a career in their faith are required to prove their knowledge of that denomination’s doctrine, and pledge for the conservation of its traditions, and accept the authority of those with higher rank. Therefore career ministers or priests, with that earthly authority, will lord their denomination faith over the flock.

In contrast the heavenly authority is a gift of the grace of God, the greater the gift of his grace, the higher the rank, but; the higher the rank, the more the disciple will be a servant, serving the flock as the Lord did, through experiencing the sufferings of Christ on behalf of the flock of God. For we read in 2nd Corinthians 1 – 5 – 6, “For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ, for if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation.”

Obviously those two authorities described above are not compatible to one another, for we read in John 5 – 44, “How can you believe, when you receive glory (authority) from one another, and you do not seek the glory (authority) that is from the one and only God?”

Nevertheless religious denominations are the ones that we all as children become familiar with, and most of us were instructed by them to live and work within the framework of its moral laws and doctrines. These moral laws and doctrines, despite their imperfection will give the believing men and women the vision, however foggy, of the kingdom of God. For we read in Galatians 3 – 24, “Therefore the law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.” Evidently, among those that faithfully observe religious doctrines, there are many God-fearing men and women just waiting to hear the good news of God’s grace, and the salvation that comes by faith in him. For we read in John 4- 38, “I sent you to reap that for which you have not laboured; others have laboured, and you have entered into their labour.”

This labour of others is seen in the work of John the Baptist, for he came to prepare a people to receive the Lord. In ACTS chapter 10 tells the story of Cornelius a devout, charitable and God fearing man, that was well prepared to receive the word, and to be baptised with the grace of the Holy Spirit. A clear example of the importance and the foundation work of the fleshly church is found in the gospel of Luke 16 – 27 to 31, “And he said, “then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house for I have five brothers that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.” But Abraham said: “They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.” But he said, “no father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead they will repent!” But he said to him: “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.”

We know that there are those who believe the word and those that minister the word in John 10 – 9, Jesus said, “I am the door; if anyone enters through me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture.” And in John 10 – 2 – 3, He said, “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, Continue next post
 
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free spirit

Well-Known Member
Continue from previous post

and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out.” The above scriptures describe the believers and saved members of his body who will go in and out from his spiritual gift and find spiritual nourishment. And for those who have been called to be shepherds Jesus will open for them the hears of men to lead them out of religious denominations and will give them the authority as he did in Matthew 10 – 1, for we read: “And having summoned his twelve disciples, he gave them authority over unclean spirit, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.”

The spirit realm, like the realm of the flesh, has laws, therefore where there is law there will also be lawbreakers, like the fallen angels, and those self-appointed men who have arbitrarily and pretentiously taken the authority of the Kingdom of God, but were never appointed by the authority giver. Jude 1 – 8 to 16, points them out, and 2nd Peter 2 – 9 to 22, confirms this very point, also Jesus is not silent on the matter for he said in Matthew 7 – 22 – 23, “Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.”

Jesus never denied what they did; he just said they acted outside of the Kingdom’s law. However, there is a specific authority that the Lord has invested in his chosen disciples, which sets them apart as shepherds. In John 20 – 23, Jesus spells it out to them for he said, “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” Together with the authority to perform miracles, he also has gives his disciples the compelling and irresistible peacemaking authority to forgive sins, for we read in Matthew 9 – 5 – 6, “For which is easier, to say, your sins are forgiven; or to say, rise and walk? But in order that you may know that the son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” Then he said to the paralytic: “Rise, (your sins are forgiven), take up your bed, and go home.” And he rose, and went home. And when the multitudes saw this, they were filled with awe, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.”

The wisdom of the world also dictates that authority is only given when one has received the training necessary to enable that pupil to discharge that authority lawfully. Likewise it is in the spiritual realm, for the disciples will have to have the training to work and speak lawfully in the name of their Lord, before they are sent out. And as they are trained the disciple will know that his authority is one with the Lord, because we read in Galatians 1 – 15 – 16, “But when he who had set me apart, even from my mother’s womb, and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his son in me, that I might preach him.”

In Luke 6 – 39 – 40, Jesus emphasised the importance of training, saying; “A blind man cannot guide a blind man can he? Will they not both fall into a pit? A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.” And if we read to the end of the above chapter six, we realise that Jesus is pointing out the pitfalls that those men, which have not been trained would encounter.
To speak in the name of the Lord, is to speak on behalf of the Lord, it is very serious indeed if we do not have that authority.

It is like a police officer that asks you to do something in the name of the law, he is not doing or saying that on his own personal authority, but he is acting and speaking on behalf of the law, which has been lawfully invested in him and his authority therefore is irresistible. But if that authority has not been lawfully invested in him, he, the self appointed policeman is working outside of the law.

Amongst the people of God there is also a diversity of ministry and authority, for we read in Ephesians 4 – 11, And he gave some as Apostles, and some as Prophets, and some as Evangelists, and some as Pastors and Teachers. Those five ministries have the office of preaching and instructing the congregation, but the manifestation of the power and authority of the spirit, working signs and wonders and miracles, will vary with each minister according to his authority, but in all situations the Holy Spirit will bear witness to them and to others that they are one with the Lord.

However, even as the law abiding citizens of this world have some authority over law-breakers, it is also true that all the faithful believers have some authority in God’s kingdom, that authority is manifested in a group, for Jesus said in the gospel of Matthew 18 – 19 – 20, “Again I say to you, that if two believers agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by my father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”

In the gospel of John 17 – 13 to 26, Jesus prays to the father regarding the future of his disciples, and for those who would come after them, the prayer is very profound and intimate, and we can believe and be reassured that things are just as they have been written, because Jesus’ prayers are always granted by the father in the fullness of his request. “But now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my (authority) made full in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world will hate them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I do not ask thee to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in me through their word; that they may all be one with the word; even as thou, father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us; that the world may believe that thou didst send me. And the glory (authority) which thou hast given me I have given to them; that they may be one, (with the law) just as we are one; I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that thou didst send me, and didst love them, even as thou didst love me. Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am, in order that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me; for thou didst love me before the foundation of the world. O righteous father, although the world has not known thee, yet I have known thee; and these have known that thou didst sent me; and I have made thy name (law) known to them, and will make it known; that the (law of) love wherewith thou didst love me may be in them, and I in them”.

We have to be one with his word, (or law of love) to be truly one with the Lord, for he will give the authority of the kingdom only to those that have been fully instructed and can be trusted to speak on his behalf. And if so, in time his love for humanity will be manifested through us, to bear witness that he has loved us, so that the world may believe that God did indeed send Jesus to save the world.

Glory to God
 
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monalee

New Member
hi... I am understanding more and more.. it always helps when a person of another faith confirms that they have received the same message from The Holy Spirit
 

free spirit

Well-Known Member
hi... I am understanding more and more.. it always helps when a person of another faith confirms that they have received the same message from The Holy Spirit

Hi! monalee,
can you be more explicit please? For it is always a blessing to share one knowledge which strengthens our faith.
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
I don’t get where you want to go with this, as I see it your dictionaries definitions clearly state that the concept that we give to this word at present is that of free choice. Now let see what the earlier writer may define it as.
Exd 21:5
But if the servant plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,'

The two most important commands are to love God and your neighbor.
This love is a free offering to God it must be of this kind:
Lev 1:3
'If his offering [is] a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it of his own free will at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD.

If man has no free will, how is he going to offer it of his own free will?
Lev 19:5
'And if you offer a sacrifice of a peace offering to the LORD, you shall offer it of your own free will.
Lev 22:29
And when you offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving to the LORD, offer [it] of your own free will.

All that these marvelous machines do is make choices.
Now then, will anyone contend that computers have unprogrammed and uncaused, free wills?

But we know that computers do not have a will of their own and we are pretty certain that humans do “you shall offer it of your own free will” sooooooooo!
Now if man has all those abilities, then you are right, we are responsible and not God.

Are you suggesting that God demands us something that he didn’t give us? Is God unjust?
Jam 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

So who is responsible? Who gave us this experience of evil etc etc? No let me go another direction and you decide if you fit this scripture with your doctrine of free will.

Ah the other great copout. Satan make me do it! Eve blame him and Adam blame Eve for their treason and disobedience.
The Apostle Paul taught
1Cr 7:5
Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

The less self-control a person has, the more glory that they give to Satan “oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God” Who exalts him?
2Pe 2:20
For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

It is clear that even under Grace man can misuse his will.
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
I don’t get where you want to go with this,

For every effect there is a cause. This is not just some scientific discovery, this scriptural and a fact. Mans definition of free will says nothing causes them to do anything and that even includes God. When one can do something, will something, even without any cause they are basically a god right? Only God the Father has this ability yet man says they have it with free will.

as I see it your dictionaries definitions clearly state that the concept that we give to this word at present is that of free choice.
No we have choice. Is there any choice made with out a cause?

CHOICE -noun
1.an act or instance of choosing; selection: 2.the right, power, or opportunity to choose; option: 3.the person or thing chosen or eligible to be chosen:
4.an alternative:
5.an abundance or variety from which to choose:
6.something that is preferred or preferable to others; the best part of something:
7.a carefully selected supply: This restaurant has a fine choice of wines.
8.a choice grade of beef.

did you notice that? In any of those do you see where a choice is made out of thin air, without an option, preference, selection? Do you see free choice any where? I will continue this further....

Now let see what the earlier writer may define it as.

Exd 21:5
But if the servant plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,'
Dont you see the cause there? Its not a free choice. BECAUSE (here is your cause) I LOVE my master.....i will not go out free. Yes a choice. Free? Hardly. Yet lets go deeper. Who is the one that gives ANYONE THE ABILITY TO LOVE? God. Theres even your cause for Him to love. There is no way out of it sorry.

The two most important commands are to love God and your neighbor.
This love is a free offering to God it must be of this kind:

Oh Really? Is what you said scriptural or unscriptural? Does God love us freely too? Ahh but what I may mention here may take you into the meat of the Word and off just the milk. Im pretty sure you know the two types of loves God has for the two types of peoples of His creation. Phileo and agapeo. Contrary to popular belief phileo is a higher love than agapeo. God phileo loves those who more than just agapeo loves Him. But I anyway I will keep this short even though what I just put has relevance to what Im about to say. Does God love us freely too now? Lets see..
Joh 16:27 -For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have lovedme, and have believed that I came out from God.

So the Father has a cause to love (phileo) us. (yet a belief in the trinity could mask this truth). And we know that love comes only from God and its “the goodness of God that leads one to repentance” and “it is God who works in you both to will and to do” and"For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and that is NOT OF YOURSELVES [well where does it come from then, if not from US?]; it is the GIFT OF GOD" , but anyway is our love a “free offering” meaning for no reason or cause we love Him? You say “yes that’s our free will/choice”. The scripture says

We love Him [God] because [whats our cause now?] He FIRST LOVED US" (I John 4:19)

1Jo 4:10 - Herein is love, NOT THAT WE LOVED GOD, BUT THAT HE LOVED US, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Wow again a cause for us to love Him and not something someone freely wills out of thin air. I tend to believe the scriptures over man.
Lev 1:3

Lev 19:5


Lev 22:29


The words "free will" do NOT prove the "doctrine of free will/choice/moral agency" by any means. The words translated "freewill offering," merely means a "VOLUNTARY" offering, not one that is demanded. And those going to Jerusalem of their own "freewill" just mean their "OWN WILL," the word "free" has absolutely nothing to do with this verse, and many Translations do not use the word "free" will, but merely by their 'OWN WILL."

But we know that computers do not have a will of their own and we are pretty certain that humans do “you shall offer it of your own free will” sooooooooo!
So we program computers to make a choice and its not free will and God has “programmed” us to make choices and its free will? Hmmmm contradiction.

Are you suggesting that God demands us something that he didn’t give us? Is God unjust?

What? God doesn’t demand free will as an offering. That’s bogus. You are to give yourself as a sacrifice—your will in other words. And that by no means mean your will was free. And for those who think that when Christ sets you free your will becomes free, no, your will becomes one with His—your doing His will not yours. Your will was never free before hand because “His (Gods) goodness leads you to repentance” and that is the cause and the effect is you coming to Christ.

You ask me if God is unjust yet don’t believe He will save all, including the vessels HE MADE for dishonor. Unbelievable!!!!
Jam 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone



.




Right, God doesn’t. Do you pay attention to all the words? Read it---“ nor does HE HIMSELF tempt anyone.” If God sends satan to tempt JESUS did God HIMSELF do it? You got to pay attention to all the words!!

Ah the other great copout. Satan make me do it! Eve blame him and Adam blame Eve for their treason and disobedience.

Copout or truth? Hmmm. Or should we say believing the scriptures or not believing the scriptures? Did God say to Eve after she said IT WAS THE SERPENT WHO DECIEVED HER “don’t try to copout, you did it by your own free will”. No He holds her accountable though and says “To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase….”.
“But Lord who will believe our report”

Its funny how you guys try to flip the script on someone with the “copout” charge, but when the truth of the matter is YOU DON’T BELIEVE THE WORD or as I believe Jeremiah said “YOU DESPISE THE WORD OF GOD”
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
The Apostle Paul taught
1Cr 7:5
so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

The less self-control a person has, the more glory that they give to Satan “oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God” Who exalts him?


Wow. I know all about the Christian interpretation or predictions of prophecy. Oh how foolish I once was. Did you notice “so that satan does not tempt you”, thanks for adding to my proof above. Anyway apparently you don’t know the role of satan and why he is always there to tempt those who called. That was/is the job God gave to satan, and that’s it. The Lucifer hoax has you deceive to that he is the one “who oppose and exalts himself…..”
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
For every effect there is a cause. This is not just some scientific discovery, this scriptural and a fact. Mans definition of free will says nothing causes them to do anything and that even includes God. When one can do something, will something, even without any cause they are basically a god right? Only God the Father has this ability yet man says they have it with free will.
Quote:
No we have choice. Is there any choice made with out a cause?

CHOICE -noun
1.an act or instance of choosing; selection: 2.the right, power, or opportunity to choose; option: 3.the person or thing chosen or eligible to be chosen:
4.an alternative:
5.an abundance or variety from which to choose:
6.something that is preferred or preferable to others; the best part of something:
7.a carefully selected supply: This restaurant has a fine choice of wines.
8.a choice grade of beef.

did you notice that? In any of those do you see where a choice is made out of thin air, without an option, preference, selection? Do you see free choice any where? I will continue this further....
What we are discussing is who is to blame for us doing evil and I thought that your position was that it is God’s because God crated evil thus He is responsible and must correct it (save us all and let us into His Kingdom) Btw I do not believed that we make choices out of thin air, I believe what we use our intellect to do it and that makes us responsible, we are guilty of not using this gift for the purpose that it was bestowed onto us, since we have the gift of reasoning we are responsible for the corruption of the gifts. We have the capacity to will to that is good, if don't we sin.

Dont you see the cause there? Its not a free choice. BECAUSE (here is your cause) I LOVE my master.....i will not go out free. Yes a choice. Free? Hardly. Yet lets go deeper. Who is the one that gives ANYONE THE ABILITY TO LOVE? God. Theres even your cause for Him to love. There is no way out of it sorry.

But the choice is between doing my will or God’s will, the Lord gave a example “not My will, but Yours, be done." So Jesus as all men had a will but He surrendered it to God. Man has free will and is evidenced it by the fact that He can disobey and the Satan make do it and is God’s fault for crating evil are just copouts, it didn’t work for Adam.
Luk 11:2
So He said to them, "When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as [it is] in heaven.

It says will be done not that on earth His will is done, it says Your kingdom come not that it is already established actually He preached that the Kingdom of God is at hand (been established) and that repentance was a requirement an essential requirement, Why is there people that do not love God?
Oh Really? Is what you said scriptural or unscriptural? Does God love us freely too?
Ahh but what I may mention here may take you into the meat of the Word and off just the milk. Im pretty sure you know the two types of loves God has for the two types of peoples of His creation. Phileo and agapeo. Contrary to popular belief phileo is a higher love than agapeo. God phileo loves those who more than just agapeo loves Him. But I anyway I will keep this short even though what I just put has relevance to what Im about to say. Does God love us freely too now?
Well God is absolutely sovereign in His election (that’s my position) He has Mercy and compassion on who He wants
Exd 33:19
Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

God is not some kind of genie of the lamp and because of this He is not moved by anything but Mercy/compassion.

Joh 16:27 -For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have lovedme, and have believed that I came out from God.

So the Father has a cause to love (phileo) us. (yet a belief in the trinity could mask this truth). And we know that love comes only from God and its “the goodness of God that leads one to repentance” and “it is God who works in you both to will and to do” and"For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and that is NOT OF YOURSELVES [well where does it come from then, if not from US?]; it is the GIFT OF GOD" , but anyway is our love a “free offering” meaning for no reason or cause we love Him? You say “yes that’s our free will/choice”. The scripture says

We love Him [God] because [whats our cause now?] He FIRST LOVED US" (I John 4:19)
But not everybody love God although He love even the wicket,
Rom 9:15
For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."



1Jo 4:10 - Herein is love, NOT THAT WE LOVED GOD, BUT THAT HE LOVED US, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
But the son of God Jesus is the propitiation for those that love God/Jesus so lf someone does not love Jesus (and there are many) God does not love them right? God is the uncaused cause

Wow again a cause for us to love Him and not something someone freely wills out of thin air. I tend to believe the scriptures over man.
To love God above all things is a commandment; humans are drawn/attracted to what is good God is supremely good thus we are attracted to Him, I repeat this not done by anything but our intellect
Rom 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

It’s late and cold so, later.
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
TO freespirit
Yes; I agree with you for he is in charge.

I don’t know you cant believe in free will and still believe God is in charge. That goes for His elect and those who are not elected and even those who do not believe at all.


I can compare him to the law; For the law is holy, is good and it is for our protection, but if you break that holy law it will became your merciless enemy.
I cannot see God creating evil as you say, but I can see God creating the law and what is outside of his law is evil.

Remember as the scripture says “all is of (out of) God”. You got to believe the scriptures. God has a knowledge of evil and uses countless times for good. He created satan, Satan didn’t create himself. Satan was create for the purpose of trying/tempting/testing. I can point out countless times where satan shows up to try one of Gods called people. He was even to try Jesus. We can agree that satan is evil right, and we know that Jesus is Lord over all and that Jesus is THE BEGINNING of God the Father creation—(side note: again if you believe in the trinity youll never see this) and through Jesus everything else is created INCLUDING satan. It should be obvious then that God created evil. Yet what blinds everyones vision on this is that damnable doctrine of free will where it is believed that satan chose to rebel on his own and God didn’t either know this would happen or God wouldn’t interfere with satans free will.

Think about that second one—God wouldn’t interfere with satans free will---if this is true and God “Declaring the END FROM THE BEGINNING” (ISA 4:10), who knows all, sees all, knows the hearts and minds of all, knows the future of everything etc etc, had to know when He first created satan that eventually He would rebel, therefore God, knowing all and the end from the beginning (notice its not the beginning to the end it’s the END FROM THE BEGINNING) would still had to create evil. You got to believe the scriptures. I didn’t bring up that it says “he was a liar FROM THE BEGINNING”. It doesn’t really even matter because just what I stated above proves God creates evil and free will is a damnable doctrine.

I will make a few comments below on your article

The following article will share some light on the subject.

AUTHORITY AND THE LAW

for it says, “I delight to do thy will, O my God; thy law is within my heart.”

The apostle Paul is specific in explaining the relationship between God, the rulers of our country and the law, for he wrote in Romans 13 – 3 to 6, “For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behaviour, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God (the law) to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God (justice,) an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. Wherefore, it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God (the law) devoting themselves to this very thing”.
in Romans 13 – 3 to 6….., for rulers are servants of God (the law) devoting themselves to this very thing”.

With this said, don’t you see how God can use evil for the purpose of good? We all know that these rulers and politicians are corrupt to the core.

Nevertheless religious denominations are the ones that we all as children become familiar with, and most of us were instructed by them to live and work within the framework of its moral laws and doctrines. These moral laws and doctrines, despite their imperfection will give the believing men and women the vision, however foggy, of the kingdom of God.
Yes, these churches teach the milk of the Word but then mix in a lot of pagan, unscriptural stuff too. Hebrew 6 speaks much on this

Glory to God

I can say i agree with all of this. Very nicely put. I think you should look even deeper though. Try this and let me know what you come up with im interested to know--- look at what you wrote with the thought of nobody having a free will and that all is of (out of) God and how God choses his called and his called AND chosen—the elect and how all is part of His plan.
 
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AK4

Well-Known Member
Quote:emaliano
What we are discussing is who is to blame for us doing evil and I thought that your position was that it is God’s because God crated evil thus He is responsible and must correct it (save us all and let us into His Kingdom)
Yes and a good example is made in the book of Job. Job held God responsible, basically blaming God, but he didn’t sin by saying that what God is doing is wrong. I hold God responsible because He says so in the scriptures, do I accuse Him of wrong doing, No because He has revealed some of His Plan to me and I can see the some of the necessary elements of evil in this age for us to experience so in the next we will appreciate the good.I could go further and deeper but I will leave it at that for now.

Btw I do not believed that we make choices out of thin air, I believe what we use our intellect to do it
So here in lies a cause because you have circumstances to which influence your choice.

and that makes us responsible,
Are you responsible for the genes you may carry or because of a hereditary thing that may have passed down through your family tree. How much is one responsible for believing in Jesus if God doesn’t give them the gift of faith? How much responsibility did pharaoh have when God hardened his heart? How much responsibility would you have if God created you to be a vessel of dishonor? Would you have the power to change what God had predetermined for you? Could Judas will himself from being the betrayer of Jesus? Oh you may think God only does this some people but not all. Can you prove that? See what I am saying. We are held accountable because we do feel as if we are the ones who is ultimately responsible, but without Gods grace upon you, you cant even choose to do right because you wont even know what is right.

we are guilty of not using this gift for the purpose that it was bestowed onto us, since we have the gift of reasoning we are responsible for the corruption of the gifts. We have the capacity to will to that is good, if don't we sin.
Like I said before who gives the gift? No one has the ability on their own or the free will to make it happen on their own or the the free choice or the free moral agency to do this without God first giving it.



But the choice is between doing my will or God’s will, the Lord gave a example “
not My will, but Yours, be done." So Jesus as all men had a will but He surrendered it to God. Man has free will

Man has a will. And it can be, no IT IS INFLUENCED by the circumstances it has experienced or given hereditarily. Same for Jesus. His will was influenced by the Father and His will WAS MADE to be like the Fathers. His Words were the Fathers. Do you actually believe Jesus could have willed not to do the Fathers will?

Jesus says “not my will”. Well what was/is Jesus’s will? “My meat is to do the will of my Father”. This doesn’t at all prove of a free will, all it proves is that we all have a will. Jesus will was never free at all. Heres more proof

"For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine Own will, but the will of Him that sent me" (John 6:38).
"For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave me commandment WHAT I should say, and WHAT I should speak" (John 12:49).

Oh theres more and more proof verses but lets read that last one again--- “He gave me WHAT I should say, and WHAT I should speak". Do you see it? And Jesus said “not my will, but Yours be done” and earlier before this event He said “He gave me WHAT I should say, and WHAT I should speak". Where is Jesus’s free will?

Oh and you say He surrendered it---how so if He was prophesied for this exact purpose? Well you have the prophecy back in very early Genesis but I will use this one from Isa 53


"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief: When you shall make His soul an offering for sin…"

At the point where Jesus started creating He had no CHOICE IN THE MATTER because He had volunteered to do it and the Father made Him stick to it. (in all due respect That one might be over your head)

and is evidenced it by the fact that He can disobey and the Satan make do it and is God’s fault for crating evil are just copouts, it didn’t work for Adam.

Tell me where there is a scripture that says man has a struggle to disobey God without His spirit in him. Oh but its in reality the opposite, man CANT obey God without His spirit. Ya catch that? Without His spirit we cant do good. Now I can show you plenty of scriptures on that but I will wait for yours.

Satans whole role is to test/tempt and accuse man, yet man will still believe he makes his choices without any cause or influence and they believe the lie that in every man is good really. They make themselves guilty without even knowing it. They don’t realize how much they deny God and His existence and sadly Christianity is the worst.

Why is there people that do not love God?

I told you the truth from the scriptures but you don’t want to believe it? I will state it again plainly this time----In this age God doesn’t want everyone to believe in His Son, but all will in their season. I know Christianity teaches differently but even they cant see the contradiction with thinking those people over in Israel is Gods chosen when they DENY His Son. Let alone all the scriptures that speak otherwise
Quote:
Well God is absolutely sovereign in His election (that’s my position) He has Mercy and compassion on who He wants

Yet He is full of contradictions when He says His mercy is boundless and He wont save His enemies which if only He would give them the gift of faith and yet tells us to love ours. And why is He only sovereign in His election? Wouldn’t that bay default make Him sovereign over those who He don’t elect? Ah that where that doctrine of free will hits again “man can chose to obey or not on their own”.

God is not some kind of genie of the lamp and because of this He is not moved by anything but Mercy/compassion.
Do you really believe this? Youre right He isn’t a genie of the lamp. Good.

lf someone does not love Jesus (and there are many) God does not love them right?

What about those who never heard? Jake Kennedy says they’ll burn for ever and this is justice. Unbeleivable. What about those God didn’t want to give His grace to? Think about it
God is the uncaused cause
Therefore God is held responsible. If God is responsible for bring rain so people to eat and He doesn’t provide I guess it’s the people fault?


 

free spirit

Well-Known Member
TO AK4

Well!
Your believes are well over my head; I am suffering to understand you, but my spirit keeps on telling me that God is in charge of all that takes place in the universe but he is not responsible for the perceived evil that occurs.
like the law of gravity, we all know that God created it and it is good, it causes us to keep our feet upon the ground, keeps the sun, the moon at the right distance from the earth so life is possible on the planet. But if you break this God given law of gravity by jumping from a great heights you will die. So the law of gravity gives you life and death, we may as well say gravity giveth, and gravity takes it away, without considering that you actually choose to jump. Or did God caused you to jump? According to you yes he did caused you to jump, I cannot absolutely accept that, because for me to say that, it is blasphemy.
What you are promoting is like the criminal or the sinner that blames the law, which makes them criminals or sinners, for if there was no law neither there would be crime or sin.
But that is no important because as you say all will be saved, do you include Satan and his angels in the saved or not?
For the sake of all I do hope you are right; but I believe you are deluding yourself. James 1:22.
 
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emiliano

Well-Known Member
To Ak4,
The influences that God causes in man are call God's Law and we are to make our choices in accordance to His laws. God does not tempt anybody to do evil

Are you responsible for the genes you may carry or because of a hereditary thing that may have passed down through your family tree. How much is one responsible for believing in Jesus if God doesn’t give them the gift of faith?
God gives gifts to all men, we have to accepte them freely and us them do good, not doing so is a sin. God's Laws are the tools to tell us what is evil.

How much responsibility did pharaoh have when God hardened his heart?

God sent His servant with the message "Let my people go to a place where they shall worship me their God, surely you know pharaoh's answer was. How many does God gives us?
How much responsibility would you have if God created you to be a vessel of dishonor?
This is predestination right? Did God give this man several opportunities? As we know God supported His servant so as to make it clear that Moses was the messenger
Would you have the power to change what God had predetermined for you?
The power that we have is the power that God gives us is the power to respond to his call, the power to look at God's law and be convicted of our sins and the need for the Savior

Could Judas will himself from being the betrayer of Jesus?
Judas repented, didn’t he? Scripture said that did so even at that later hour He provable received mercy.

Oh you may think God only does this some people but not all. Can you prove that?

As you can see even the worst of sinners can receive mercy if he repent, but what if he applied your doctrine God make me do it (the bible says that it was Satan)
See what I am saying. We are held accountable because we do feel as if we are the ones who is ultimately responsible, but without Gods grace upon you, you cant even choose to do right because you wont even know what is right.

But God sent His servant to give us the Law, If we know the Law we are responsible for choosing to do good in accordance to His Laws.

Like I said before who gives the gift? No one has the ability on their own or the free will to make it happen on their own or the the free choice or the free moral agency to do this without God first giving it.

God gives the gift but some reject it
Jhn 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
 
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