Do you understand the New Testament

[AK4]

I wouldn't say "deceiver," just "misinformed."

I am hardly misformed. Ive done my homework and research and am still doing so. Ive already been deeply immersed in the doctrines of man and believed in them once. Ive done my homework on the catholics, protestants, islam, new age, "jews", judaism, alot of the doctrines, greek and hebrew words--meanings, usage, creationism, evolutionism, egyptology, preterism and its opposite etc etc etc.

All this and more help me "Come out of her" and not be "lukewarm" in Laodicia.

Hardly misinformed all thanks to and by the grace of God.

 

[sojourner]

I am hardly misformed. Ive done my homework and research and am still doing so. Ive already been deeply immersed in the doctrines of man and believed in them once. Ive done my homework on the catholics, protestants, islam, new age, "jews", judaism, alot of the doctrines, greek and hebrew words--meanings, usage, creationism, evolutionism, egyptology, preterism and its opposite etc etc etc.

"Comparative Religions 101" is a completely different animal from writing a doctoral thesis in process theology or New Testament Greek. There are layers that need to be learned. many times, what appears to be one thing on the surface is something else entirely underneath.

 

[AK4]

"Comparative Religions 101" is a completely different animal from writing a doctoral thesis in process theology or New Testament Greek. There are layers that need to be learned. many times, what appears to be one thing on the surface is something else entirely underneath.

Tis true to a degree. But the ultimate fact is it is God who gives understanding, knowledge, discernment and wisdom. Man does not get this without Him. No amount of studying can give man these things if God doesnt give Him spiritual understanding. Ive already given you examples of some of these people. God shows this also through the scriptures. Peter, the fisherman, is a good example of an "unlearneth" who became a spiritual leader.

 

[AK4]

Just for all you out there who think once you've heard your calling and came to Christ supposedly by your "free" will and now your will is free now to make choices whether good or bad because of the GRACE God has given you, take a look at part of what grace is and see if you have a "free" will.

Strong's Number: 5485

encodedOriginalWord​

Original Word
Word Origin

χάρις

from (5463)
Transliterated Word
Phonetic Spelling

charis

khar'-ece


Parts of Speech
TDNT

Noun Feminine

9:372,1298
Definition

1. grace
   1. that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
2. good will, loving-kindness, favour
   1. of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
3. what is due to grace
   1. the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
   2. the token or proof of grace, benefit
      1. a gift of grace
      2. benefit, bounty
4. thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

Grace is not just something one gets and just hang it up like a plaque on a wall. It works, teaches etc etc that person. It influences the heart/mind to do good works and produce fruits. Now if something influences your will, then your will is not free and neither is your choice. Now look at what influence means and see how “free” your will/choice is.


Main Entry: in·flu·ence
Function: noun
1 a : the act or power of producing an effect without any apparent exertion of force or direct exercise of command b : corrupt interference with authority for personal gain
2 : the power or capacity of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways
3 : one that exerts influence —in·flu·enc·er noun —under the influence : affected by alcohol or another intoxicant under the influence>

Think on this verse

1Co 15:10 - But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Just thought I’d get this out there.

 

[sojourner]

Tis true to a degree. But the ultimate fact is it is God who gives understanding, knowledge, discernment and wisdom. Man does not get this without Him. No amount of studying can give man these things if God doesnt give Him spiritual understanding. Ive already given you examples of some of these people. God shows this also through the scriptures. Peter, the fisherman, is a good example of an "unlearneth" who became a spiritual leader.

There's a vast difference between discernment and knowledge. One needs access to both. Remember, on top of being a carpenter, Jesus was a rabbi. On top of being a tent maker, Paul was a a Pharisee.

Take a look at your signature. You have to know what questions to ask before you can ask them. Don't be so quick to dismiss those who can guide you to ask the right ones.

 

[AK4]

Take a look at your signature. You have to know what questions to ask before you can ask them.

God has worked in me to ask the right questions and to find the right answers the brought me out of Mystery Babylon. That is why i can see through most of the false doctrines out there. The sad thing is most people dont question what they have been taught and seriously get to the heart of a matter, so therefore as a sad reality they stay dumb sheep.

 

[sojourner]

God has worked in me to ask the right questions and to find the right answers the brought me out of Mystery Babylon. That is why i can see through most of the false doctrines out there. The sad thing is most people dont question what they have been taught and seriously get to the heart of a matter, so therefore as a sad reality they stay dumb sheep.

A good seminary education does the same thing. It will break down one's preconceptions and misconceptions, challenge, break down, and re-form one's theological understanding.

One thing I find distressing about your post here is that most graduates of credible seminaries seem to come up with vastly different answers from yours.

Another thing I find distressing is that seminary graduates usually don't claim to "have the answers." But they do learn to question, to ponder, and to discern. Therefore, they have open hearts and discerning minds. You, on the other hand, seem to "have all the answers."

 

[AK4]

A good seminary education does the same thing. It will break down one's preconceptions and misconceptions, challenge, break down, and re-form one's theological understanding.

I dont know first hand about seminary professors but i do know how college professors are and im pretty sure these seminary professors are the same. These univerisities or colleges and seminaries also try to "sell" you their already percieved knowledge. Not necessarily the whole college, but the professors.

One thing I find distressing about your post here is that most graduates of credible seminaries seem to come up with vastly different answers from yours.

I actually take that as a compliment because its the many who are just called and only few who are both called and chosen. The few will know more of the deep things of God than the many. And of course the few get "persecuted" by the many because they dont follow the thoughts and ways of the many/world. As the Word says "He uses the base things (the lowly people, the non-seminary gradutes, etc etc) to confound the wise/mighty). And this is littered throughout the Word.

Another thing I find distressing is that seminary graduates usually don't claim to "have the answers." But they do learn to question, to ponder, and to discern. Therefore, they have open hearts and discerning minds. You, on the other hand, seem to "have all the answers."

I dont claim to have all the answers, but i do know how to rightly divide the Word and do understand spiritual principles. Many dont understand spiritual things. I question even all that God has shown me and more and more He proves Himself to me. I have an open heart and discerning mind to the Truth. If something doesnt stand up to the Word then how much more should one be open? If you know a truth why would you have an open mind to the opposite.

For example, a major truth that destroys the trinity theory believed by the many is "no man has seen God at any time, niether has any seen His shape or heard His voice". Now if you stick with this major truth then youll find out who and what Jesus is and who is the Father. Youll find out who is the God of the OT and even before the creation of the world/ages and you can find out what the holy spirit is and isnt. Youd be able to debunk also the immaculate conception doctrine and may others also but lets just leave it at the trinity.

I dont have all the answers, the scriptures do.

 

[sojourner]

I dont know first hand about seminary professors but i do know how college professors are and im pretty sure these seminary professors are the same. These univerisities or colleges and seminaries also try to "sell" you their already percieved knowledge. Not necessarily the whole college, but the professors.

You know what happens when you assume!
Professors worth their salt don't care what you believe, as long as you can think and analyze (and write) well enough to back up your argument.

I actually take that as a compliment because its the many who are just called and only few who are both called and chosen. The few will know more of the deep things of God than the many. And of course the few get "persecuted" by the many because they dont follow the thoughts and ways of the many/world. As the Word says "He uses the base things (the lowly people, the non-seminary gradutes, etc etc) to confound the wise/mighty). And this is littered throughout the Word.

Well, you just shot yourself in the foot for two reasons:
1) There are a lot more of "you" than there are of "them." (Uneducated vs. scholars)
2) I've never known anyone so humble as my seminary professors and spiritual mentors.

 

[sojourner]

i do know how to rightly divide the Word and do understand spiritual principles.

You do? Amazing. I bet you'd be the only one who believes that.

If you know a truth why would you have an open mind to the opposite.

Because truth is multi-faceted. One of the most basic spiritual principles is that we move and act within several interdependent and opposite pairs (such as consolation/desolation).

For example, a major truth that destroys the trinity theory believed by the many is "no man has seen God at any time, niether has any seen His shape or heard His voice".

And yet, "Those who have seen me have seen the Father."

Another "interdependent pair."

I dont have all the answers, the scriptures do.

Nope. They don't either.

 

[AK4]

You know what happens when you assume!

Professors worth their salt don't care what you believe, as long as you can think and analyze (and write) well enough to back up your argument.

Really? What planet do you live on? In a perfect ideal world it would be that way. For example if your professor believes in liberalism and your a conservative and you present your views and back it up with facts, what do you think would happen to your grade if you showed how wrong your professors views are. Same thing with seminaries, if the teacher believes in hell and eternal damnation and you dont and present it to him "well enough to back up your argument" what do you think'll happen? Exactly

Well, you just shot yourself in the foot for two reasons:
1) There are a lot more of "you" than there are of "them." (Uneducated vs. scholars)
2) I've never known anyone so humble as my seminary professors and spiritual mentors.

Well i guess its in the way YOU want to look at it. And believe me i didnt shoot myself.

#1 You tried to use the view of "educated" vs uneducated to make your point. Lets try it from another one---the one ive been speaking all along that follows scripture,

there are more of the "YOU" (as in those who are STUCK in one of the christian religions or any of the other religions of the world and never see through the false doctrines who Christ says to those especially in the christian religions "Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say. Depart from me workers of iniquity" AND “I never knew you”) also known as the MANY---the called

than it is of "THEM OR US" (those who came out of traditional christendom or the one religious systems of world and found the truth about these false doctrines especially of Christendom and still follow Christ and His God) also known as the FEW--the called AND chosen

#2 Well that’s your personal experience so I don’t know, but of course there are many very sincere and loving people out there who are still deceived and stuck in the Christian religion and doctrines who say to Christ “but haven’t we cast out demons, worked miracles and prophecied in your Name?”

Isnt it obvious to you that Christ is directly talking to those who call themselves Christians here?

 

[sojourner]

Really?

Absolutely.

What planet do you live on?

A little place called "Reality."

In a perfect ideal world it would be that way.

Really! And what planet do you live on?

For example if your professor believes in liberalism and your a conservative and you present your views and back it up with facts, what do you think would happen to your grade if you showed how wrong your professors views are. Same thing with seminaries, if the teacher believes in hell and eternal damnation and you dont and present it to him "well enough to back up your argument" what do you think'll happen?

If your facts are backed up, well-documented, and the case is presented in a coherent and thoughtful manner, you'll get what's prescribed by the course syllabus -- if the professor is worth his salt.

Exactly

Where did you go to college/seminary?

there are more of the "YOU" (as in those who are STUCK in one of the christian religions or any of the other religions of the world and never see through the false doctrines who Christ says to those especially in the christian religions "Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say. Depart from me workers of iniquity" AND “I never knew you&#8221

A splendid example of reading into scripture that which is not there. That's not what the Bible says. Christ isn't speaking to those in the "Christian religions." They didn't exist at the time of Christ. Christ is speaking of the ones who, in their entitlement, are more interested in following their own noses than in living the life God calls them to live (which I've clearly shown that the educated do not always [or even mostly] do).

It's you who trotted out the scripture where Jesus deals with the high-and-mighty and then equated them to the educated. So that's the tack with which I rebutted.

than it is of "THEM OR US" (those who came out of traditional christendom or the one religious systems of world and found the truth about these false doctrines especially of Christendom and still follow Christ and His God) also known as the FEW--the called AND chosen

Closer to what the Bible says, but still no cigar.

Well that’s your personal experience so I don’t know,

That's right. You don't know. So why are you so condescending of them?

of course there are many very sincere and loving people out there who are still deceived and stuck in the Christian religion and doctrines who say to Christ “but haven’t we cast out demons, worked miracles and prophecied in your Name?”

::sigh::
"Sincere" and "loving" are precisely the attributes Jesus is looking for -- even from those who are "stuck" in a religion. Don't you know that it's not what you believe, but the sincerity with which you follow God that matters to Jesus? These that Jesus talks about are those who place prescribed works and certain doctrines over and above the attentive ear and the faithful breast -- such as you appear to be doing here. You are saying that we must believe these things in order to be right with Jesus -- if I'm reading you right.

Isnt it obvious to you that Christ is directly talking to those who call themselves Christians here?

No. It's obvious that Jesus is speaking to those who are plagued by entitlement. It's obvious that you believe Jesus is speaking to "those who call themselves Christians."

 

[AK4]

You do? Amazing. I bet you'd be the only one who believes that.

Actually your wrong and even someone who was on this thread seen this. You wouldn’t know the experience of how much more you learn when you know how to rightly divide the Word. Ahhh but I do see why your type cant do this. Besides your types don’t believe even this “the sum of Thy Word is Truth”. You don’t believe plain truths like this one.

Because truth is multi-faceted. One of the most basic spiritual principles is that we move and act within several interdependent and opposite pairs (such as consolation/desolation).

What? You know, you said exactly what the apostate churches and theologians and you preachers do and teach-----MIX LIES WITH THE TRUTH ----and somehow this brings someone to a higher truth? You actually believe this gobblety-gook? That is deception to highest degree!

And yet, "Those who have seen me have seen the Father."

Another "interdependent pair."

You answer with verse yet still don’t know who God the Father is and how Jesus is the Father. And still, where is the holy spirit? How come Jesus doenst even ACKNOWLEDGE it? Why doesn’t He say “Those who have seen me have seen the Father and the holy spirit?”

*sigh* Jesus Christ is NOT God the Father. Why is it so hard for you guys to see this? Answer me this without going into other things and other scriptures and NOT answer the opposing FACTS that destroy you guys trinity theory-- if you can (not holding my breath). Heres just a few

The trinity theory supposes that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, together, as one unity, not as individual units, but together are ONE, constitute the ONE GOD.
Now then:

Why in the dozens of Scriptural discussions regarding the unity of Jesus with God His Father is the Holy Spirit of God NOT included?

If all three are EQUALLY CO-EQUAL, why does Jesus Christ HAVE A GOD, yet the Father is NEVER SAID TO HAVE a God?

How is that NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN OR HEARD GOD, yet some have in the OT, have in the NT and will see HIM AS HE IS in the future? To say that Jesus is God the Father is calling Jesus a liar when He says “no man has ever seen or heard God”
Jesus said He didn't need to "rob" God to be equal with Him. Why? Because the Father freely GAVE Jesus all that He had and possessed. Jesus had ALL power and ALL authority and ALL judgment in heaven and earth. Were these things the natural possessions of Jesus seeing that He is supposedly a third equal part of this trinity? No, my friend. God GAVE Jesus all these things -- they had an origin and the origin is GOD THE FATHER.

Jesus Christ will be SUBJECT to God His Father for all eternity (See I Cor. 15:24-28). Where are we told that the Father will be subject to Jesus Christ for all eternity? And, of course, the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned in this discussion in I Cor. 15.

If the trinity is true, how is it that Jesus Christ was CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, but is the SON OF GOD THE FATHER???

See if you can answer these questions regarding the trinity without going into HUNDREDS of unrelated Scriptures regarding God's spirit.

Nope. They don't either.

Yet you are a “preacher of the Word”? Lets see how you just blasphemed—

I say—the scriptures have all the answers, thereby saying It holds ALL TRUTH

You say—NOPE THEY DON’T

So in other words

I say---Jesus, who is the Word of God which is the scriptures (“sum of thy word is truth” “I am the truth and the life” etc etc) has all truth and all answers

You say---NOPE, the Word of God which is Jesus, doesn’t have all the answers/truth

Again, and you are a “preacher for God”????

 

[AK4]

It's you who trotted out the scripture where Jesus deals with the high-and-mighty and then equated them to the educated. So that's the tack with which I rebutted.

Im glad you said this right now because ive got a list that shows what you "scholars/theologians/leaders in the church" "the mighty ones" have taught the us "uneducated, low and dumb sheep"

THEY SPEAK WITH FORKED - ED TONGUE

Most all Christian theologians would claim to believe the first statement of Scriptural Truth that I present below, especially when I cite a Scripture verse with it, but they will then contradict and refuse to teach the second statement of Truth. Here are a few examples:

Do they believe the fire in I Cor.3:15 burns mans’ works, but not the man himself? Yes.

But do they teach that this same fire in Rev.20:15 also burns works, not the man? No.

Do they believe that God is the Creator of ALL? Yes.

But do they teach that God created EVIL as He says in (Isa. 45:7)? No.

Do they believe that God is absolutely and totally sovereign (Eph. 1:11)? Yes.

But do they teach that God exercises sovereignty over man’s supposed "free" will? No.

Do they believe that Jesus Christ IS the Saviour of the whole world (I Jn 4:14)? Yes.

But do they teach that Jesus Christ will SAVE the whole world? No.

Do they believe that presently Christ only has immortality (I Tim. 6:16)? Yes.

But do they teach the truth therefore that men’s souls are moral and not immortal? No.

Do they believe that the original manuscripts of God’s Word were inerrant? Yes.

But do they teach us that the King James translation, which they say is "inerrant" has gone through THOUSANDS of error corrections since 1611? No.

Do they believe that the soul that sins shall DIE (Ezek. 18:4)? Yes.

But do they teach that souls of deceased sinners are actually DEAD? No.

Do they believe there are many cults today that need exposing? Yes.

But do they teach that Christendom, by its OWN definitions, is also a cult? No.

Do they believe that Sodom is "suffering the vengeance of eternal [aeonian] fire? Yes.

But do they teach that Sodom will be restored to their former estate (Ezek. 16:55)? No.

Do they believe in a future resurrection of dead people back to life (John 5:29)? Yes.

But do they teach that a resurrection is imperative for dead people to live again? No.

Do they believe the first half of I Cor. 15:22 that "For as in Adam ALL die?" Yes.

But do they teach the last half, "even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive?" No.

Do they believe that "...the end of the world [Gk: ion -- age]" ends in Mat. 24:3? Yes.

But do they teach that this same "ion -- age" in Matt. 25:41 & 46 will also end. No.

Do they believe that Jn 3:13 & Acts 2:34 are truthful Scripture (II Tim. 3:16)? Yes.

But do they teach this truth that "NO man," including David, has gone to heaven? No.

Do they believe ALL God purposed, spoke, and willed (Isa. 46:10-11), He will do? Yes.

But do they teach that God’s "will" to save all, I Tim. 2:4, etc., will be done? No.

Do they believe that Satan lied when he told Eve, "thou shalt not surely die?" Yes.

But do they teach the truth that sinners really do DIE at death as God has stated? No.

Do they believe that the Apocryphal books do not belong in the Bible? Yes.

But do they teach us that the 1611 so-called "inerrant" King James Bible contained four-teen such books, including "Tobit," "Judith," "The idole Bel and the Dragon"? No.

Do they believe that Christ is totally responsibility for our salvation? Yes.

But do they teach that "no man can" come to Christ of himself (John 6:44)? No.

Do they believe that Satan is the greatest sinner of all? Yes.

But do they teach Jn. 8:44 which states that Satan "sinned from the beginning?" No.

Do they believe Christ really died for the sins of the world? Yes.

But do they teach that Jesus Christ was dead when they placed Him in the tomb? No.

Do they believe the many Scriptures that liken death to "sleep?" Yes.

But do they teach that dead people are unconscious, "sleeping" till resurrection? No.

Do they believe that the last enemy to be destroyed [Gk: abolished] is death? Yes.

But do they teach that ALL death, including the second death, will be abolished? No.

Do they believe that all things are possible with God (Mark 10:27)? Yes.

But do they teach that it is possible for God to save nonbelievers after they die? No.

Do they believe that every tongue in heaven and earth will confess Jesus as LORD? Yes.

But do they teach that the Holy Spirit inspires this sincere voluntary act (I Cor. 12:3)? No.

Do they believe that good and evil are both in the same tree of knowledge? Yes

But do they teach that good and evil both come from the same root source? No.

Do they believe that God absolutely "knows all" (I John 3:20)? Yes.

But do they teach that God knows in advance ALL who will reject Christ? No.

Do they believe that God’s love will never fail (I Cor. 13:

? Yes.

But do they teach that God’s love will never fail in saving the world He loves? No.

Do they believe the apostles spoke in foreign languages in Acts 2:4-11? Yes.

But do they teach that of the hundreds of thousands who claim to speak in tongues today, not one of them can speak in multiple languages which they did not already study? No.

Do they believe that the masses did not understand Christ’s parables (Mat. 13:13)? Yes.

But do they teach that Christ purposely didn’t want them to understand, (Vs. 14-17)? No.

Do they believe the Old Covenant contained the Ten Commandments (Deut.4:12)? Yes.

But do they teach a New Covenant which contains a much higher law (Heb. 8:8-9)? No.

Do they believe that God created all the spirits and messengers of heaven? Yes.

But do they teach that God also created Satan who was always His adversary? No.

Do they believe that loving our enemies means doing good and not evil to them? Yes.

But do they teach that God will never subject His enemies to eternal torture and evil? No.

There seems to be no end to the Scriptural contradictions of Christian beliefs. It is good for us that God makes us dig deep for the precious gems of His word. It really is like searching for hidden treasure. And I have never found a hidden treasure in God’s Word that has disappointed me. Each new discovery brings more appreciation for God and His plan of salvation for all.

Its too bad too many people believe in your god of confusion and contraditions

 

[AK4]

Oh i forgot these two among many others

God's Word says:
John 17:15 (and 20)--"I pray not that thou shouldest take them (referring ot the disciples) out of the world, but that thou (father God) shouldest keep them from the evil one" and "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word (referring to all future believers)."

The Church says:

All believers will be "raptured" before the "great seven-year tribulation" or "after it" (it is amazing that the Church can teach the rapture when it is so clear it isn't going to happen because Christ said it wouldn't!)

If you would actually PAY ATTENTION to the words youd see that it is actually the "bad" people who would be "raptured" if even there were such a thing.

And another one:

God's Word says:

Matthew 4:4--"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

The Church says:

Obey church elders, pastors, and leaders...and not just the word of God (Hagee, for one, has said this, but I am sure most churches follow this rule...I know church board's do by personal experience!)

 

[sojourner]

You wouldn’t know the experience of how much more you learn when you know how to rightly divide the Word.

"Rightly dividing the Word" doesn't entail the kind of things you are perpetrating upon the Bible.

Ahhh but I do see why your type cant do this.

So now I'm a "type." I thought Jesus asked us to be one, as he and the Father are One...
I must have been mistaken.

Besides your types don’t believe even this “the sum of Thy Word is Truth”.

Of course not, because the sum of the Word is not reached by cobbling together snippets that happen to agree with what you believe.

You don’t believe plain truths like this one.

That's because your version of it isn't so plain.

you said exactly what the apostate churches and theologians and you preachers do and teach

Name them and we'll see. You're definition of who's apostate and who isn't may be completely off-base.

MIX LIES WITH THE TRUTH

Reveal the lie here:

truth is multi-faceted. One of the most basic spiritual principles is that we move and act within several interdependent and opposite pairs (such as consolation/desolation).

::sound of crickets chiriping::

You actually believe this gobblety-gook?

No, I believe this basic tenet of truth.

That is deception to highest degree!

In a pig's eye.

You answer with verse yet still don’t know who God the Father is and how Jesus is the Father.

Jesus isn't the Father. Jesus is the Son. Both are God. One is God Incarnate. The other is not.

And still, where is the holy spirit? How come Jesus doenst even ACKNOWLEDGE it? Why doesn’t He say “Those who have seen me have seen the Father and the holy spirit?”

If you "rightly divide the Word," you will note that the question asked of Jesus (to which he provides the answer, which I paraphrased) was "Show us the Father," not, "Show us the Father and the Holy Spirit." His answer in no way advocates the position that Jesus is the Father. Only that the Son perfectly reflects the Father (as we all do, but imperfectly). That's why Jesus doesn't mention the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ is NOT God the Father.

That's right. He is God the Son.

Why is it so hard for you guys to see this?

Why is it so hard for you to see that we do see it?

The trinity theory supposes that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, together, as one unity, not as individual units, but together are ONE, constitute the ONE GOD.

The Trinity doctrine states that God is One God in three Persons: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Why in the dozens of Scriptural discussions regarding the unity of Jesus with God His Father is the Holy Spirit of God NOT included?

Because, in those particular passages, the point of the discussion does not include the Holy Spirit -- only the Father and the Son.

If all three are EQUALLY CO-EQUAL, why does Jesus Christ HAVE A GOD, yet the Father is NEVER SAID TO HAVE a God?

Because of Jesus' dual nature: Fully God and fully human. All human beings have a God. But God (as expressed by "Father") does not have a God. God is God.

How is that NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN OR HEARD GOD, yet some have in the OT, have in the NT and will see HIM AS HE IS in the future?

We can't see God the Father. We can see God the Son. When we are no longer in our mortal bodies, the assumption is that we will see God the Father. Where's the problem?

To say that Jesus is God the Father is calling Jesus a liar when He says “no man has ever seen or heard God”

We're not saying that Jesus is God the Father. We're saying that Jesus is God the Son. Jesus says that no one has seen the Father. Then he says that those who have seen him [Jesus] have seen the Father. Why? Because Jesus perfectly reflects the Father, yet is not the Father.

Jesus said He didn't need to "rob" God to be equal with Him.

The ancient hymn quoted in Philippians 2 says that.

Why? Because the Father freely GAVE Jesus all that He had and possessed.

Just as the Father gives the rest of us all that we have and possess.

Were these things the natural possessions of Jesus seeing that He is supposedly a third equal part of this trinity?

Yes! Yes! Yes!

God GAVE Jesus all these things -- they had an origin and the origin is GOD THE FATHER.

I don't find that in Philippians...

Jesus Christ will be SUBJECT to God His Father for all eternity (See I Cor. 15:24-28).

Look at vs. 27b: "But when it says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him." Apparently, for a time, Christ is not in subjection to the Father.

Where are we told that the Father will be subject to Jesus Christ for all eternity?

We aren't. No one is claiming that.

And, of course, the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned in this discussion in I Cor. 15.

That's because dominion isn't part of the Holy Spirit's job description.

If the trinity is true, how is it that Jesus Christ was CONCEIVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, but is the SON OF GOD THE FATHER???

How else would God have become fully human? How is it that you were conceived by the application of sperm to egg, yet you are the son of your father?

Yet you are a “preacher of the Word”? Lets see how you just blasphemed—

I say—the scriptures have all the answers, thereby saying It holds ALL TRUTH

You say—NOPE THEY DON’T

So in other words

I say---Jesus, who is the Word of God which is the scriptures (“sum of thy word is truth” “I am the truth and the life” etc etc) has all truth and all answers

You say---NOPE, the Word of God which is Jesus, doesn’t have all the answers/truth

Again, and you are a “preacher for God”????

I don't care what you say about the scriptures. Jesus and the Bible are not the same entity -- no matter how hard you want them to be. Jesus is the Divine Principle -- or "Word" -- Logos. The Bible is not the Divine Principle -- or Logos.

Jesus is Truth. Jesus does have "all the answers." The Bible does not. Nor do we.

I'm sorry that bothers you. Jesus often taught hard lessons, some of which (such as "Eat my flesh and drink my blood") caused many disciples to part company with him (such as you have done with the Church). Only the Twelve stood fast through the difficult sayings. We could all take a lesson from that.

 

[sojourner]

Im glad you said this right now because ive got a list that shows what you "scholars/theologians/leaders in the church" "the mighty ones" have taught the us "uneducated, low and dumb sheep"

THEY SPEAK WITH FORKED - ED TONGUE

Most all Christian theologians would claim to believe the first statement of Scriptural Truth that I present below, especially when I cite a Scripture verse with it, but they will then contradict and refuse to teach the second statement of Truth. Here are a few examples:

Do they believe the fire in I Cor.3:15 burns mans’ works, but not the man himself? Yes.

But do they teach that this same fire in Rev.20:15 also burns works, not the man? No.

Do they believe that God is the Creator of ALL? Yes.

But do they teach that God created EVIL as He says in (Isa. 45:7)? No.

Do they believe that God is absolutely and totally sovereign (Eph. 1:11)? Yes.

But do they teach that God exercises sovereignty over man’s supposed "free" will? No.

Do they believe that Jesus Christ IS the Saviour of the whole world (I Jn 4:14)? Yes.

But do they teach that Jesus Christ will SAVE the whole world? No.

Do they believe that presently Christ only has immortality (I Tim. 6:16)? Yes.

But do they teach the truth therefore that men’s souls are moral and not immortal? No.

Do they believe that the original manuscripts of God’s Word were inerrant? Yes.

But do they teach us that the King James translation, which they say is "inerrant" has gone through THOUSANDS of error corrections since 1611? No.

Do they believe that the soul that sins shall DIE (Ezek. 18:4)? Yes.

But do they teach that souls of deceased sinners are actually DEAD? No.

Do they believe there are many cults today that need exposing? Yes.

But do they teach that Christendom, by its OWN definitions, is also a cult? No.

Do they believe that Sodom is "suffering the vengeance of eternal [aeonian] fire? Yes.

But do they teach that Sodom will be restored to their former estate (Ezek. 16:55)? No.

Do they believe in a future resurrection of dead people back to life (John 5:29)? Yes.

But do they teach that a resurrection is imperative for dead people to live again? No.

Do they believe the first half of I Cor. 15:22 that "For as in Adam ALL die?" Yes.

But do they teach the last half, "even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive?" No.

Do they believe that "...the end of the world [Gk: ion -- age]" ends in Mat. 24:3? Yes.

But do they teach that this same "ion -- age" in Matt. 25:41 & 46 will also end. No.

Do they believe that Jn 3:13 & Acts 2:34 are truthful Scripture (II Tim. 3:16)? Yes.

But do they teach this truth that "NO man," including David, has gone to heaven? No.

Do they believe ALL God purposed, spoke, and willed (Isa. 46:10-11), He will do? Yes.

But do they teach that God’s "will" to save all, I Tim. 2:4, etc., will be done? No.

Do they believe that Satan lied when he told Eve, "thou shalt not surely die?" Yes.

But do they teach the truth that sinners really do DIE at death as God has stated? No.

Do they believe that the Apocryphal books do not belong in the Bible? Yes.

But do they teach us that the 1611 so-called "inerrant" King James Bible contained four-teen such books, including "Tobit," "Judith," "The idole Bel and the Dragon"? No.

Do they believe that Christ is totally responsibility for our salvation? Yes.

But do they teach that "no man can" come to Christ of himself (John 6:44)? No.

Do they believe that Satan is the greatest sinner of all? Yes.

But do they teach Jn. 8:44 which states that Satan "sinned from the beginning?" No.

Do they believe Christ really died for the sins of the world? Yes.

But do they teach that Jesus Christ was dead when they placed Him in the tomb? No.

Do they believe the many Scriptures that liken death to "sleep?" Yes.

But do they teach that dead people are unconscious, "sleeping" till resurrection? No.

Do they believe that the last enemy to be destroyed [Gk: abolished] is death? Yes.

But do they teach that ALL death, including the second death, will be abolished? No.

Do they believe that all things are possible with God (Mark 10:27)? Yes.

But do they teach that it is possible for God to save nonbelievers after they die? No.

Do they believe that every tongue in heaven and earth will confess Jesus as LORD? Yes.

But do they teach that the Holy Spirit inspires this sincere voluntary act (I Cor. 12:3)? No.

Do they believe that good and evil are both in the same tree of knowledge? Yes

But do they teach that good and evil both come from the same root source? No.

Do they believe that God absolutely "knows all" (I John 3:20)? Yes.

But do they teach that God knows in advance ALL who will reject Christ? No.

Do they believe that God’s love will never fail (I Cor. 13:

? Yes.

But do they teach that God’s love will never fail in saving the world He loves? No.

Do they believe the apostles spoke in foreign languages in Acts 2:4-11? Yes.

But do they teach that of the hundreds of thousands who claim to speak in tongues today, not one of them can speak in multiple languages which they did not already study? No.

Do they believe that the masses did not understand Christ’s parables (Mat. 13:13)? Yes.

But do they teach that Christ purposely didn’t want them to understand, (Vs. 14-17)? No.

Do they believe the Old Covenant contained the Ten Commandments (Deut.4:12)? Yes.

But do they teach a New Covenant which contains a much higher law (Heb. 8:8-9)? No.

Do they believe that God created all the spirits and messengers of heaven? Yes.

But do they teach that God also created Satan who was always His adversary? No.

Do they believe that loving our enemies means doing good and not evil to them? Yes.

But do they teach that God will never subject His enemies to eternal torture and evil? No.

There seems to be no end to the Scriptural contradictions of Christian beliefs. It is good for us that God makes us dig deep for the precious gems of His word. It really is like searching for hidden treasure. And I have never found a hidden treasure in God’s Word that has disappointed me. Each new discovery brings more appreciation for God and His plan of salvation for all.

Its too bad too many people believe in your god of confusion and contraditions

Straw man
Straw man
Straw man

It is you who is creating confusion by presenting half-truths and misconception here. You're so mixed up, I'm really surprised that you know up from down. It's too bad you're so confused that you can't see who's confused and who is not.

 

[sojourner]

Oh i forgot these two among many others

God's Word says:
John 17:15 (and 20)--"I pray not that thou shouldest take them (referring ot the disciples) out of the world, but that thou (father God) shouldest keep them from the evil one" and "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word (referring to all future believers)."

The Church says:

All believers will be "raptured" before the "great seven-year tribulation" or "after it" (it is amazing that the Church can teach the rapture when it is so clear it isn't going to happen because Christ said it wouldn't!)

If you would actually PAY ATTENTION to the words youd see that it is actually the "bad" people who would be "raptured" if even there were such a thing.

And another one:

God's Word says:

Matthew 4:4--"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

The Church says:

Obey church elders, pastors, and leaders...and not just the word of God (Hagee, for one, has said this, but I am sure most churches follow this rule...I know church board's do by personal experience!)

Hagee is a complete idot. The majority of the Church do not operate in this way, nor do they teach these things. I don't know what kind of fundigelical idiots you got hooked up with, but it has completely skewed your attitude toward the Church. That's too bad.

 

[AK4]

Sojourner

Really! And what planet do you live on?

Thank God, I am becoming more and more “not of this world”

if the professor is worth his salt.

Crazy how much power that word “IF” has aint it?

Where did you go to college/seminary?

Ive attended two colleges, no cementaries, oops seminaries and never will but Ive got a friend and a brother who has. But back then I was still “a dumb sheep” being led by blind shepards. But now Im free.

A splendid example of reading into scripture that which is not there. That's not what the Bible says. Christ isn't speaking to those in the "Christian religions." Christ is speaking of the ones who, in their entitlement, are more interested in following their own noses than in living the life God calls them to live (which I've clearly shown that the educated do not always [or even mostly] do).


Well you and your mentors show how much yall really don’t know. The “new testament” is really written only for the Elect (called AND chosen). Its not meant for the world YET. The world wont understand it and the called will only know the milk of it because they are still stuck in the deceptions and doctrines of the one who THRONE IS IN THE CHURCH (Rev 2:13) When Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount it wasn’t to the multitudes (many/world) it was to His disciples (few).

"...and when He was set, His DISCIPLES came unto Him" (Matt. 5:1)
"And He opened His mouth, and taught THEM [His disciples]" (Ver. 2).
"Blessed are YE [all you disciples]..." (Ver. 11).
"...for great is YOUR [disciples'] reward..." (Ver. 12).
"YE [disciples] are the salt of the earth..." (Ver. 13).
"YE [disciples] are the light of the world..." (Ver. 14).
"Let YOUR [disciples'] light so shine..." (Ver. 16).
"For verily I say unto YOU [disciples]..." (Ver. 18).
"For I say unto YOU [disciples]..." (Ver. 20).
"YE [disciples] have heard that it was said..." (Ver. 21).
"But I say unto YOU [disciples]... whosoever is angry..." (Ver. 22).
"But I say unto YOU [disciples]... shall say to his brother, Raca..." (Ver. 22).
"But I say unto YOU [disciples]... whosoever shall say , 'You fool' shall be in danger of hell [Gehenna] fire" (Ver. 22).
"Therefore if YOU [disciples] bring your gift..." (Ver. 23).
"Agree with YOUR [disciples] adversary quickly..." (Ver. 25).
"Veryily I say unto YOU [disciples], YOU [disciples] shall by no means come out thence, till YOU [disciples] have paid the uttermost farthing" (Ver. 26).
"But I say unto YOU [disciples], that whosoever looks on a woman to lust..." (Ver. 28).
"And if YOUR right eye offend YOU [disciples], pluck it out, and cast it from YOU: for it is profitable for YOU [disciples] that one of YOUR members should perish, and not that YOUR whole body [the bodies of Christ's disciples, not the wicked unbelievers in the day of Judgment] should be cast into hell [Gehenna fire]" (Ver. 29).
"And if YOUR right hand offend YOU, cut it off, and cast it from YOU: for it is profitable for YOU [disciples of Mine] that one of YOUR members should perish, and not that YOUR whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna fire]" (Verse 30).
Any question as to whom Jesus addressed His "Sermon on the Mount?" Contrary to what the church teaches because they have no idea what this Gehenna fire is, they wouldn’t know that ITS ACTUALLY FOR HIS OWN DISCIPLES
"For the time is comethat judgment must begin at the House of God (this is not the world because ..." (I Pet. 4:17).
This is not that DAY/AGE for the world

Because He has appointed a day, in the which He will [even in Paul's day it was still a future time] judge the world in righteousness by that Man Whom He has ordained: whereof He has given assurance unto all men, in that He has raised Him from the dead" (Acts 17:31).

This is the age/day for the HOUSE OF GOD. That is why every book in the NT is directed to believers not unbelievers. Cant you see this? Its so obvious. The JUDGMENT, COUNCIL, GEHENNA, AND PRISON (Matt. 5) of Christ's Sermon on the Mount are for US; Christ's disciples; those chosen; the faithful; the overcomers; the few; the elect. And these judgments are NOW in each generation of the chosen few throughout this Church age.
That’s why in Rev we (Christians) are told to COME OUT OF HER—MYSTERY BABYLON.

Of course those who cant see spiritual and understand that Christ said “His Words are spirit” will think someone like me are “reading more into what the Word say”.

It's you who trotted out the scripture where Jesus deals with the high-and-mighty and then equated them to the educated. So that's the tack with which I rebutted.

The proof is in the pudding and its not just limited to the “educated” so I never singled them out. Besides like I showed the list of contradictions that THE APOSTATE CHURCH teaches and these came from the theologians and church leaders. The history is there and very provable yet im the one who don’t know what im talking about--geez

So why are you so condescending of them?

Im not. Maybe they taught you “the right way” and you have fallen away---and I only base that by what you post.

"Sincere" and "loving" are precisely the attributes Jesus is looking for -- even from those who are "stuck" in a religion. Don't you know that it's not what you believe, but the sincerity with which you follow God that matters to Jesus?.

Its a lot more than that. That’s that “feel good, extremely easy, sinners 10 second prayer, once saved always saved" doctrine. So yes theres the sincere and loving but also unfearful and bold to name a few.

But anyway you say its not what you believe but the sincerity. Really how wrong can you be and yet another teaching of the church that’s blinds so many. How many thing do you want me to list that DESTROY THIS TEACHING?

Many SINCERELY believe that God is all merciful and loving YET they believe sincerely HE WILL TORTURE MOST OF HIS CHILDREN FOR ALL ETERNITY IN INDESCRIBABLE PAIN FOR EVER AND EVER. But you say that the very most abominable and blasphemous thing is attributed to God in all sincerity by a person is all that matters to Jesus? Get outta town. To sincerely believe that Jesus will reign for all eternity is wrong too and unscriptural and a lie YET TO SINCERELY believe A LIE is all that matters to Jesus? You know not what you speak

They sincerely worship God yet Jesus says“But IN VAIN they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Mat 15:9

 

[AK4]

These that Jesus talks about are those who place prescribed works and certain doctrines over and above the attentive ear and the faithful breast

For once we agree, so JUDGE these doctrines you believe in. Funny you say certain doctrines over and above the attentive ear and the faithful breast because that is exactly what you are spewing out in these posts. These doctrines the commandments of men you follow IN VAIN.

You are saying that we must believe these things in order to be right with Jesus

Uhhh yeah. If you believe you would do as He says--

Do you think Jesus said this for nothing “Why do you call me Lord and do not DO what I say?” ---and what He says we should do IS through the WHOLE WORD OF GOD.

Oh and before you bring up the not by works thing, its about good works and those works are not yours, they are Gods, yet for those who stay adamant on the free will doctrine cant see this.

No. It's obvious that Jesus is speaking to those who are plagued by entitlement. It's obvious that you believe Jesus is speaking to "those who call themselves Christians."

Okay lets use your “theory” of entitlement which is obvious you put this about the jews (you shouldn’t have to be scared to say this(Rev 21:8))---so with that in mind who are the ones who think they should be entitled to “heaven” now that Jesus has come? Christians so its exactly like I said above. Thank you