Do you understand the New Testament

[AK4]

"Rightly dividing the Word" doesn't entail the kind of things you are perpetrating upon the Bible.

So now I'm a "type." I thought Jesus asked us to be one, as he and the Father are One...
I must have been mistaken.

Of course not, because the sum of the Word is not reached by cobbling together snippets that happen to agree with what you believe.

That's because your version of it isn't so plain.

Name them and we'll see. You're definition of who's apostate and who isn't may be completely off-base.

Reveal the lie here:

::sound of crickets chiriping::

No, I believe this basic tenet of truth.

In a pig's eye.

Jesus isn't the Father. Jesus is the Son. Both are God. One is God Incarnate. The other is not.

If you "rightly divide the Word," you will note that the question asked of Jesus (to which he provides the answer, which I paraphrased) was "Show us the Father," not, "Show us the Father and the Holy Spirit." His answer in no way advocates the position that Jesus is the Father. Only that the Son perfectly reflects the Father (as we all do, but imperfectly). That's why Jesus doesn't mention the Holy Spirit.

That's right. He is God the Son.

Why is it so hard for you to see that we do see it?

The Trinity doctrine states that God is One God in three Persons: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Because, in those particular passages, the point of the discussion does not include the Holy Spirit -- only the Father and the Son.

Because of Jesus' dual nature: Fully God and fully human. All human beings have a God. But God (as expressed by "Father") does not have a God. God is God.

We can't see God the Father. We can see God the Son. When we are no longer in our mortal bodies, the assumption is that we will see God the Father. Where's the problem?

We're not saying that Jesus is God the Father. We're saying that Jesus is God the Son. Jesus says that no one has seen the Father. Then he says that those who have seen him [Jesus] have seen the Father. Why? Because Jesus perfectly reflects the Father, yet is not the Father.

The ancient hymn quoted in Philippians 2 says that.

Just as the Father gives the rest of us all that we have and possess.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

I don't find that in Philippians...

Look at vs. 27b: "But when it says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him." Apparently, for a time, Christ is not in subjection to the Father.

We aren't. No one is claiming that.

That's because dominion isn't part of the Holy Spirit's job description.

How else would God have become fully human? How is it that you were conceived by the application of sperm to egg, yet you are the son of your father?

I don't care what you say about the scriptures. Jesus and the Bible are not the same entity -- no matter how hard you want them to be. Jesus is the Divine Principle -- or "Word" -- Logos. The Bible is not the Divine Principle -- or Logos.

Jesus is Truth. Jesus does have "all the answers." The Bible does not. Nor do we.

I'm sorry that bothers you. Jesus often taught hard lessons, some of which (such as "Eat my flesh and drink my blood") caused many disciples to part company with him (such as you have done with the Church). Only the Twelve stood fast through the difficult sayings. We could all take a lesson from that.

I will expose your unscriptural teachings, but i just wanted say its awfully funny how you didnt use not one scripture. And notice there is a big difference between scripture and bible verses

I also want everyone to notice mans reasoning and the deep entreaching of the egyptian trinity being taught by the church verses the plain Words of God coming up.

 

[sojourner]

I will expose your unscriptural teachings,

Let's use the qualifier "attempt."

its awfully funny how you didnt use not one scripture.

You didn't give me reason to. Unlike some, I don't bludgeon people with Bible verses.

there is a big difference between scripture and bible verses

Pray, enlighten us with this difference.

I also want everyone to notice mans reasoning and the deep entreaching of the egyptian trinity being taught by the church verses the plain Words of God coming up.

the Bible is replete with parallels from other religions. The flood story is an obvious example. The Garden story is another. Both come from Babylonian myth. That there is a sprinkling of Egyptian myth present is hardly surprising. After all, Israel lay in between both superpowers, who tramped through regularly, kicked butt and took names.

 

[emiliano]

From the very beginning God has revealed Himself as a triune God.

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2
The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] [fn] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
​

And the three are one God the creator of heavens and earth and the, the Holy Spirit and the Word through; the Word God creates all things and nothing was created without the word. Jesus is the Word.

Jhn 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
​

And through the Word incarnated God is creating His people.

Jhn 1:13
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
​

 

[AK4]

Quote: sojourner
"Rightly dividing the Word" doesn't entail the kind of things you are perpetrating upon the Bible.

Is it me doing this or you. I show scripture, you show opinions or mans reasoning

So now I'm a "type." I thought Jesus asked us to be one, as he and the Father are One...
I must have been mistaken.

Oh brother. Does “unequally yoked” ring a bell to you? And no that doesnt just refer to marriage.

Of course not, because the sum of the Word is not reached by cobbling together snippets that happen to agree with what you believe.

Wow so these universal truths throughout the Word

Titus 1:2 in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian,

John 17:17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy WORD is truth.

John 10:35 …and the SCRIPTURE cannot be broken;

2 Tim 3:16 ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Isa 28:10 - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Psalms 119:160 The sum of thy is truth.

And I could go on and on. Yet the funniest thing about what you say is that even Jesus says this same thing about “finding Him written in the Book”. How do you think even the Pharisees and scribes knew He was who He said He was? That’s right they knew.

That's because your version of it isn't so plain.

Yup, why? Because Unto you (anyone who God chooses to open up their eyes and mind) it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: Mark 4:11

Name them and we'll see. You're definition of who's apostate and who isn't may be completely off-base.

You didn’t see that list in that post where you state “straw man” arguments. Its was quite funny because you and everyone else know that those things on that list are true.

Reveal the lie here:

Ive been doing that to all your posts. Which one you want?

::sound of crickets chiriping::

Ultimately there is only ONE truth. Be a little more specific and I will catch you in your lie here. Your consolation is true but it could go deeper. Your desolation is on the very iffy side depending on how you are meaning this. Just like your doctrines.

No, I believe this basic tenet of truth.

You don’t know what truth is if you don’t even believe (or better stated by the Word says “you despise the word of the Lord&#8221 when He tells you that the sum of His Word is truth.

In a pig's eye.

Yup even a donkeys eye like the one that was with Balaam. God can open up the eyes of anything to be able to see through the deception. And I can see through it.

 

[AK4]

Quote: sojourner
Jesus isn't the Father. Jesus is the Son. Both are God. One is God Incarnate. The other is not.

Ahh yes the mixing of lies with truth. God incarnate is only half truth in itself for what the definition of incarnate means. But in no way Is the Father and Son the same THING. The Son CAME OUT FROM the Father. ANYTHING that is either "from" or "of" something ELSE cannot also "BE" that something else no matter what or who it is. Same thing with the holy spirit. A "Father" and a "Son" CANNOT ALSO BE THE SAME PERSON!

Countless things can be said to "be ONE" in numerous forms of close relationship. In this close relationship of purpose, will, harmony, etc., our Lord said:

"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).

Did ya notice what Jesus DID NOT say-- "I and the Father, We are one GOD," Now did He? No, He did not! Pay attention to the words.

Do the Scriptures, however, tell us that there is only ONE GOD? Yes, they do.

Do the Scriptures, tell us WHO that ONE God is? Yes, they do.

Do the Scriptures tell us what the relationship of Jesus Christ is with that ONE God? Yes, they do.

In fact, all of these things are answered in ONE Scripture

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

And the next verse says

"But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge" (Ver. 7)

I can say "Amen" to that. Practically "not in all" Christendom is there this knowledge. Gee it makes one wonder if Paul wrote this specific line because back in his day because of the heresy of the trinity was already being taught. Wait a minute of course it was.

How many Gods are there? Answer: "ONE God." Of Whom is this ONE God composed? Answer: "the FATHER." NOT, the Father, AND the Son, AND the holy ghost! Just, "the Father!" ONLY, "the Father!!" "ONE God, the FATHER!"

Is not God’s definition far easier and better than yours and theologians’ "one, plus ONE, plus ONE, equals ONE" nonsense or you guy’s One third of a God plus one third of a God plus one third of a God equals one whole God!? Is this some new math or what?

This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).

And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"

And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).

Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!

Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

Etc etc etc.

 

[AK4]

Quote:sojourner
If you "rightly divide the Word," you will note that the question asked of Jesus (to which he provides the answer, which I paraphrased) was "Show us the Father," not, "Show us the Father and the Holy Spirit." His answer in no way advocates the position that Jesus is the Father. Only that the Son perfectly reflects the Father (as we all do, but imperfectly). That's why Jesus doesn't mention the Holy Spirit.

Oh brother.

That's right. He is God the Son.

No He is the Son of God. A BIG difference. His God and Father GAVE Him everything and when the Father gives someone/something all that God can do, then He is God. NOWHERE is there a scripture for the unscriptural God the Son. Show me a scripture where it says God the Son. I can show you many for the Son of God. Have you ever heard of the warning of “adding to the word”?

Why is it so hard for you to see that we do see it?

You don’t. If you see a trinity for God then you don’t. Science can “see” God better than the churches theology. (Actually youd be amazed how much they have found out in science that was ALREADY in the word. Heres just one example

Isa 40:22 - It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth (to spread out from a beginning point) out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Doesnt this sound like the big bang theory? Of course the “church” would reject this.

The Trinity doctrine states that God is One God in three Persons: the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Yup that new math---1+1+1=1 or 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 magically equals A WHOLE 1

Because, in those particular passages, the point of the discussion does not include the Holy Spirit -- only the Father and the Son.

Miraculously. Maybe there is a reason for that. HMMMMMM

Because of Jesus' dual nature: Fully God and fully human. All human beings have a God. But God (as expressed by "Father") does not have a God. God is God.

And you don’t see a contradiction in your statement here? Fully God yet a third part of a trinity. So He was fully God as a human so as fully God when He died, yes died, as fully God, God fully died. Think about that. Oh no you wont admit that. Either Jesus as fully God and fully Human didn’t really die but went to hell preaching (theres THREE unscriptural doctrines in just that one there) or Jesus as fully God died and yet the universe and all things in it kept its being and goings (now does that sound scriptural either? Can anything exist without God?)

We can't see God the Father. We can see God the Son. When we are no longer in our mortal bodies, the assumption is that we will see God the Father. Where's the problem?

Assumption huh? How does that go again----- you know what happens when you assume. But we do have that tells us what we will see, so there is no assumption.

1Jo 3:2 - Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Nowhere is it stated we will be able to see the Father. For those who has had the Revelation of Jesus Christ revealed to them since Pentecost because He “is, was, and will be” and has “come quickly” has had “the mystery of God ended”, but as you even stated before those who follow this trinity nonsense the mystery will always be there. “Its an enigma, something we (yall) just cant figure out”

Quote:
We're not saying that Jesus is God the Father. We're saying that Jesus is God the Son. Jesus says that no one has seen the Father. Then he says that those who have seen him [Jesus] have seen the Father. Why? Because Jesus perfectly reflects the Father, yet is not the Father.

Please drop that unscriptural God the Son mess. He is the Son of God and God gave all authority and power to Him which made Him (like) God.
What does coequal mean? All equal right? The one God divided into 3 coequal parts = trinity right? Make up your mind, sometimes you say Hes the Father then others you say He the Son.

 

[AK4]

quote:sojourner
Just as the Father gives the rest of us all that we have and possess.

So then with that logic and you term the trinity—the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And so since the Father gives us all of Him what term will you name the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and all of believing humanity since as Jesus said WE ALL ARE ONE? Trinity to quad-billionth billionth power. Nonsense

Yes! Yes! Yes!

All power GIVEN to Him yet it was a natural possession? Can we say contradiction? Did someone forget the meaning of given? Its amazing how one has to contradict themselves to make a false doctrine work. Maybe you should look up that word given and honestly rethink your premise

I don't find that in Philippians...

Even if it didn’t, would it matter? Out of Jesus’s own mouth He says “all power has BEEN GIVEN to me from the Father” numerous times. But in your choosing to be blind to the plain words in Phillipians, it does say it

Phil 2: 9 For this reason also, God highly R82 exalted Him, and bestowed (Means the same thing as given right? Look it up)on Him the R83 name which is above every name,

Look at vs. 27b: "But when it says, 'All things are put in subjection,' it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him." Apparently, for a time, Christ is not in subjection to the Father.

What? You cant see how Paul is plainly showing that THE FATHER (the one who put all things in subjection under Him (Jesus) is not included in the ALL THINGS? Sorry to be so straight forward, but are you that blind?!! See how the trinity doctrine can blind someone to such a plain statement. Even look at it in context and youd see the distinction Paul is making

v28 When all things are subjected to Him (Jesus), then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One (who is this one? THE FATHER of course) who subjected all things to Him (the Son), so that God may be all in all.

Open your eyes man

We aren't. No one is claiming that.

Okay but you just said at sometime the Father is in subjection to the Son, for a time. So where does it ever say this? Certainly not in the verses 1 Cor 15:24-28 as I just shown and certainly no where else either.

That's because dominion isn't part of the Holy Spirit's job description.

Oh boy. Not only do you show that you don’t know who or what the Holy Spirit is, but you also show that you have no clue iin what it does in bringing the world into subjection

Quote:
How else would God have become fully human? How is it that you were conceived by the application of sperm to egg, yet you are the son of your father?

Typical avoidance of the question. Remember as the trinity says they are three persons in one. So the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus, not the Father. So that makes the Holy Spirit Jesus’ father, yet do we have a scripture that EVER states this? NO.

Oh and about your analogy. Did God sent a spiritual sperm to “impregnate” Mary with Jesus, thus making this His very beginning? Show me a scripture. Did God ACTUALLY send His Son (John 5:23, 30, 36, 37; 6:39, 44, 57; 8:16, 18, 29, 10:36; 12:49; 14:24; 17:21; 17:24; I John 4:14.etc etc) and not some “sperm”

Ac 5:30 - The God (who is this God?) of our fathers raised up Jesus, (and the answer is… )whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. (Who was slew on the tree? Jesus. So who was sent? Jesus. How was He sent by the Father? emptied Himself (Phil 2:7) How was this done? It doesn’t say. So is/was Jesus eternal? NO “the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14). The beginning of whos creation? God the Father. God (the Father) created/begot a God? Yuppers, Yes siree

Joh 1:18 -No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained {Him.} (Check the greek)

Im pretty sure you do know what begotten means and God (the Father) didn’t begot Himself. He BEGOT a Son, Jesus, who He made (a) God.

Where is the holy spirit in all those verses I just quoted?

Quote:
I don't care what you say about the scriptures. Jesus and the Bible are not the same entity -- no matter how hard you want them to be. Jesus is the Divine Principle -- or "Word" -- Logos. The Bible is not the Divine Principle -- or Logos.

Exactly. He is not the bible or bibles out there. He is the spoken/ written original scriptures not these bible translations

Jesus is Truth. Jesus does have "all the answers." The Bible does not. Nor do we.

The scriptures does. And He gives to the few a lot of the answers and yet when those answers come it opens up even more questions. But the answers there. But trying to find the trinity in the scriptures---YOU WONT and if you continue to believe that God is a trinity then the Mystery of God will always be a “Christian doctrine of God as existing in three Persons and one Substance IS NOT DEMONSTRABLE BY LOGIC or SCRIPTURAL PROOF..." (Emphasis mine). (Hastings Dictionary of the Bible)

I'm sorry that bothers you. Jesus often taught hard lessons, some of which (such as "Eat my flesh and drink my blood") caused many disciples to part company with him (such as you have done with the Church). Only the Twelve stood fast through the difficult sayings. We could all take a lesson from that.

It doesn’t bother me at all. What “bothers” me is that people like you w ho don’t even know what eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood actually is and entails and how some people just stay stubborn to truth and would rather follow fairy tales

 

[AK4]

From the very beginning God has revealed Himself as a triune God.

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2
The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] [fn] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. ​

And the three are one God the creator of heavens and earth and the, the Holy Spirit and the Word through; the Word God creates all things and nothing was created without the word. Jesus is the Word.

Jhn 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: ​

And through the Word incarnated God is creating His people.

Jhn 1:13
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. ​

Not only did you just make up something, your "theory" holds no water because Genesis 1:1 is not the beginning of creation. Jesus is the beginning of Gods creation (Rev 3:14) not the heavens and earth. There are things stated that happened before the creation of the heavens and the earth. Besides Gen 1:1 isnt even part of the "six "days" of creation".

Now just a quick lesson

Gen 1:1 really says in the Hebrew "In Firstfuits God created....." Now who is the Firstfruit? Jesus. So "In (through) Jesus, God created the heavens and earth". And yet there is still something mentioned how Firstfruit (Jesus) was birthed. Yup. But ive spoken too much already.

 

[AK4]

Let's use the qualifier "attempt."

Whatever makes you happy

You didn't give me reason to. Unlike some, I don't bludgeon people with Bible verses.

Yet you give your opinion or the opinions of people who parrot other peoples opinions which in your case started from a false teaching. Besides the scriptures says the He (Jesus) will be doing the speaking for you so dont worry about what to say. (paraphrasing). When you quote Jesus, that is Him speaking for you.

Pray, enlighten us with this difference.

Ive answered it in the previous post

the Bible is replete with parallels from other religions. The flood story is an obvious example. The Garden story is another. Both come from Babylonian myth. That there is a sprinkling of Egyptian myth present is hardly surprising. After all, Israel lay in between both superpowers, who tramped through regularly, kicked butt and took names.

Yes i know all this. Like i said some may contain some elements of truth mixed with fairy tales. Ive done my research on all that

 

[emiliano]

Not only did you just make up something, your "theory" holds no water because Genesis 1:1 is not the beginning of creation. Jesus is the beginning of Gods creation (Rev 3:14) not the heavens and earth. There are things stated that happened before the creation of the heavens and the earth. Besides Gen 1:1 isnt even part of the "six "days" of creation".

Now just a quick lesson

Gen 1:1 really says in the Hebrew "In Firstfuits God created....." Now who is the Firstfruit? Jesus. So "In (through) Jesus, God created the heavens and earth". And yet there is still something mentioned how Firstfruit (Jesus) was birthed. Yup. But ive spoken too much already.

I just don’t know where you taking this in reference to Rev 3:14, what I pointed out is that from the beginning God has reveal Himself a triune God. How this scripture that you cited contradict me? How do you translate “the Faithful and True Witness”? Are the heavens and earth the only thing created? Was it necessary for God to explained and give a detailed account and timetable to the people that he made contact with?

 

[AK4]

emiliano

I just don’t know where you taking this in reference to Rev 3:14, what I pointed out is that from the beginning God has reveal Himself a triune God. How this scripture that you cited contradict me?

Okay here we go. Since it says “in the beginning, God” , through rightly dividing the Word you have “in Firstfruit (Jesus), Elohim (God the Father and Jesus)” or to put it plainer “In Jesus, the Father through Jesus created the heavens and earth”. So we have the Father and Son here. Jesus is the Holy Spirit of God (see my last post in the thread http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/84261-who-spirit-truth-who-comforter.html to know how Jesus is the Holy Spirit). So if anything, God (Jesus, not the Father) is revealing Him and His Father. Rev 3:14 comes in to show you how you can know that it was indeed Jesus who was doing the creating and “hovering”. There is no third “entity” revealing any triune god.

How do you translate “the Faithful and True Witness”?

The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of Gods (notice Jesus has a God) creation. Jesus is the Amen. Jesus is the Faithful and true witness. Jesus is the very first thing the invisible, cant be seen or heard God the Father created.

Are the heavens and earth the only thing created?

No, Jesus was created before them. Then you have the heavens (which also has another meaning, but I will stick with what most people know right now) and all that are in the heavens (angels, stars , planets etc etc) then the earth.

Was it necessary for God to explained and give a detailed account and timetable to the people that he made contact with?

I don’t think anything is necessary for God, but in His wisdom He has done this in the Scriptures. Not in a line by line paragraph or single book, but He gives “here a little there a little” if you can “rightly divide the word” “comparing spiritual with spiritual”.

Example. Gen 1:1 it says in the beginning, yet you have in Job it says “the stars sang at the creation of the earth” (paraphrasing), yet still you have whats said in Rev 3:14 and other places about Jesus, and still yet you have in proverbs something mentioned even before that that pertains to the Father (which I think may have a dual meaning because the same can be applied to Jesus).

Yet through all of these the holy spirit is never mentioned as a separate entity/persons as the trinity doctrine dictates

 

[free spirit]

TO AK4

Okay here we go. Since it says “in the beginning, God” , through rightly dividing the Word you have “in Firstfruit (Jesus), Elohim (God the Father and Jesus)” or to put it plainer “In Jesus, the Father through Jesus created the heavens and earth”. So we have the Father and Son here. Jesus is the Holy Spirit of God (see my last post in the thread http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/84261-who-spirit-truth-who-comforter.html to know how Jesus is the Holy Spirit). So if anything, God (Jesus, not the Father) is revealing Him and His Father. Rev 3:14 comes in to show you how you can know that it was indeed Jesus who was doing the creating and “hovering”. There is no third “entity” revealing any triune god.

How do you translate “the Faithful and True Witness”?

The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of Gods (notice Jesus has a God) creation. Jesus is the Amen. Jesus is the Faithful and true witness. Jesus is the very first thing the invisible, cant be seen or heard God the Father created.

Yes AK4 you are correct in what you say, but you fail to see and take into account Jesus' human soul.
We read in ACTS 2: 32 to 36; "this Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured forth this which you both see and hear, for it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says; the Lord said to my Lord sit at my right hand, until i make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet. therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ this Jesus whom you crucified."
Jesus' soul "or son" is another entity but must be considered part of God, therefore for the wanting of a better word "trinity" is an adequate explanation.
The following article gives a glimps of jesus' works and place in God.

THE FLESH IS ENMITY TO GRACE AND TRUTH
Most of those who confess Christ today also confess to be under grace, without understanding fully what grace and truth is actually about. We should know that grace and truth came about through Jesus, for we read in John 1 – 17: “For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realised through Jesus Christ.”

It is likely that we have heard grace being described as “the undeserved love of God,” which is a beautiful description of his merciful forgiveness, but it is only one part of the story, for that description should be taken further to expose its second hidden aspect of the gift of his grace. The first part deals with receiving the undeserved love of God, which marks the beginning of our Christian life, and the second part is for us to grow in the truth of his grace, (or the holiness of his character) and give his undeserving love to others. For we read in 1st John 3 – 16: “We know love by this, that he laid down his life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.”

We certainly know that Jesus did lay down his life for us and paid the price for our sins, which is the expression of his undeserving love for us, and we ought to know that he went further than that, in fact he also created a graceful human character by living as a man the way he did, and because he died sinless the holy human character of Jesus is now beyond corruption, having become one with the Holy Spirit. As we read in ACTS 2 – 33: “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.”

The above statement is confirmed in John 16 – 13 – 14 - 15, for we read: “But when he, the spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak; and he will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify me; for he shall take of mine, and shall disclose it to you. All things that the father has are mine; therefore I said, that he takes of mine, and will disclose it to you.”

So, from the above verses we can say with confidence that a holy and graceful human character, in this case, the character of Jesus has become the character of our God, they have become one and the same, as God has intended from all eternity. I know that most Christians are aware of this, but not many of them know that the gift of his grace is not limited to receiving his undeserved love in the form of forgiveness, which is priceless in itself, but also includes the indescribable gift of his Holy Character, so that we may also became heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ.

Yet, to fully understand and appreciate the gift of his Holy Character we have to see it as a seed deposited in our heart that needs to be acknowledged, nourished and protected, and be allowed to grow to the full stature of Christ, by suppressing our selfish coveting fleshly character in favour of Jesus’ graceful loving character. And if his heavenly character is growing and replacing our fleshly character, we are in fact laying down our life for the brethren. You may ask, which brethren? In the beginning of our regeneration we are required to lay down our life for Christ, our brother; and if you endure this transition you will come to a point that you will always do the things that pleases him, for you will be living through his character as naturally as breathing air, therefore, your new character which has become one with Christ can no longer be corrupted, for you have died by willingly crucifying your flesh with its evil desires, and for that reason, you are now protected by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The above sublime statement is confirmed in 1st John 3 – 2 - 3 and also in verses 6 – 7 and 9; for we read: “Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when he appears, we shall be like him, because we shall see resemble him just as he is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on him purifies himself just as he is pure. No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or knows him. Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous;No one who is born of God practices sin, because his seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
Go to post 753

 

[free spirit]

From post 752
How can a serious believer overlook those inspiring and revealing scriptures, for they demand our undivided attention in examining ourselves, or are there some of us who prefer not to know the task at hand, happily deluding themselves? Although, some of the brethren do not have this hope, and will take offence if another boldly confesses to them to have that confidence in Christ; they fail to believe and or have misunderstood that Christ in them is the hope of righteousness. They mistakenly believe that human perfection in the eyes of God can only come after our physical death. An error well received and promoted by those who have not crucified their flesh, for they continue to love the way of this world.

2nd Timothy 3 – 5 describes them in an uncomplimentary way by saying: “Holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power.” Yes, that is true, for while they maintain that the flesh has the power to make and keep us sinners, inadvertently they deny that Jesus has also the power to make and keep us holy. They present this argument with a false humility, by the convincing argument to themselves and to others of being humble before God. But, instead of defending the useless and deceitful work of appearing to be humble, they should examine themselves and embrace the arduous task of repentance, in order to take hold and posses the victory over the temptations of their flesh.

Unfortunately many well-intentioned “Christians” do not fully understand and or have never been informed, of the difference that Jesus made to religion by realising and introducing the gift of his grace and truth. And if they do not understand what has been deposited (or sown) in their heart they fail to grasp the principal purpose of repentance, which is indispensable (as water is to a seed), for only repentance will create a favourable environment in our heart for the seed of his graceful and Holy Character to grow.

Many of those “failing Christians” believe in the existence of God religiously, and in obeying the Ten Commandments, and or, living their life the best way they can, out of their unregenerate fleshly nature, which is very well if ones aim is to be a model citizen of this world.

True believers however should aim to be God’s children, partakers of God’s Word and living through his son’s Holy Character. Then, and only then, we the obedient children of God, who have buried our fleshly nature in favour of Christ’s heavenly nature, are in the world, but we are no longer of the world. As John 17 – 15 – 16 & 26, verifies that by saying, “I do not ask thee to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. And I have made thy name word known to them, and will make known; that the love wherewith thou didst love me may be is also in them, and I in them.”

Consequently, Jesus in us and through us, can minister his undeserving grace and truth to a lost world. We will fully understand that sublime truth, if we are able to absorb the wisdom of the word written in Galatians 1 – 15 – 16: for it says “But when he who had set me apart, even from my mother’s womb, and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his son in me, that I might preach him.” These two verses in Galatians are clearly loaded with God’s working method and purpose, yes in them God is unambiguously answering us with truth that we can literally feel in ourselves: hence only his evidence of truth in us is able to confirm or deny, if we have indeed been called into service.

Glory to God

 

[emiliano]

Okay here we go. Since it says “in the beginning, God” , through rightly dividing the Word you have “in Firstfruit (Jesus), Elohim (God the Father and Jesus)” or to put it plainer “In Jesus, the Father through Jesus created the heavens and earth”. So we have the Father and Son here. Jesus is the Holy Spirit of God (see my last post in the thread http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/84261-who-spirit-truth-who-comforter.html to know how Jesus is the Holy Spirit). So if anything, God (Jesus, not the Father) is revealing Him and His Father. Rev 3:14 comes in to show you how you can know that it was indeed Jesus who was doing the creating and “hovering”. There is no third “entity” revealing any triune god.

How do you translate “the Faithful and True Witness”?

The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of Gods (notice Jesus has a God) creation. Jesus is the Amen. Jesus is the Faithful and true witness. Jesus is the very first thing the invisible, cant be seen or heard God the Father created.

Are the heavens and earth the only thing created?

No, Jesus was created before them. Then you have the heavens (which also has another meaning, but I will stick with what most people know right now) and all that are in the heavens (angels, stars , planets etc etc) then the earth.

Was it necessary for God to explained and give a detailed account and timetable to the people that he made contact with?

I don’t think anything is necessary for God, but in His wisdom He has done this in the Scriptures. Not in a line by line paragraph or single book, but He gives “here a little there a little” if you can “rightly divide the word” “comparing spiritual with spiritual”.

Example. Gen 1:1 it says in the beginning, yet you have in Job it says “the stars sang at the creation of the earth” (paraphrasing), yet still you have whats said in Rev 3:14 and other places about Jesus, and still yet you have in proverbs something mentioned even before that that pertains to the Father (which I think may have a dual meaning because the same can be applied to Jesus).

Yet through all of these the holy spirit is never mentioned as a separate entity/persons as the trinity doctrine dictates

Now you are getting too complicated you went to all lengths to prove the triune God then you had a flight of thoughts “Since it says “in the beginning, God”, through rightly dividing the Word you have “in Firstfruit (Jesus),” dividing the word? What do you mean by it? To me it appears more a flight of thought than anything else the part that get me is you attack on other doctrines and the arrogant attitude that you show, what if we don’t share you interpretation, that these themes have been studied by theologian with far superior methods.

 

[AK4]

freespirit

Yes AK4 you are correct in what you say, but you fail to see and take into account Jesus' human soul.
We read in ACTS 2: 32 to 36; "this Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured forth this which you both see and hear, for it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says; the Lord said to my Lord sit at my right hand, until i make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet. therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ this Jesus whom you crucified."
Jesus' soul "or son" is another entity but must be considered part of God, therefore for the wanting of a better word "trinity" is an adequate explanation.
The following article gives a glimps of jesus' works and place in God.

Carefully read the words of the verse you quoted--- “that God has made him both Lord and Christ this Jesus whom you crucified."


“Both Lord”---well who was the Lord of Israel in the OT? Jesus. It says so right here and in places like Acts 3:13, but where most people err is they think the God of the OT was God the Father, but this cant be because out of Jesus’s own mouth He says “no one has EVER seen or EVER heard God”, yet Jesus is called God and has a God. Moses and a few others seen the God of the OT and Jesus comes later and says no one has ever seen or heard God? Did Jesus lie? NO, but who did they see? Not God the Father, Jesus’s God, but they saw and heard the Lord--Jesus. But then who is Jesus? He is the spokesman for the invisible, cant be seen or heard God the Father or better spoken “the image of the invisible (cant be seen or heard) God (the Father). I could go on and on but back to the point you were trying to make here.


“that God has made him”---- Well then, when did God (the Father) make Him (Jesus) Lord and Christ? Was this after He became flesh, died and resurrected? That cant be for several reasons but heres one: He was “slain from the foundation of the world”. So theres just one proof that shows Jesus was already Lord and Christ before becoming flesh, dying and being resurrected. Theres more but I will leave it there. So there you can see who can see who the people of the OT seen and heard. If God was a trinity (three in one) then Jesus lied because if you see or hear one of the three, you see or hear God. Yet there is a distinction made in scripture to show how God the Father and Jesus ARE NOT the same person/thing/entity yet they are ONE. The example of marriage is a good example of two, TWO SEPARATE things being ONE. Jesus and God the Father are one in spirit. Jesus is the holy spirit FROM God the Father to humanity so that knocks out the trinity. The holy spirit being the power of God (the Father).

Get it? From God the Father he gives His power (his holy spirit) to Jesus (at the beginning of all creation (Rev 3:14)). Jesus gives His spirit (which came from His God (the Father)) to humanity, yet it is still ultimately from God the Father. Jesus BECAME the holy spirit (power of God) because without Jesus we can do nothing, but with Jesus we can. Think about all the things we are to do in the name of Jesus.

I personally know how hard it is to unlearn the trinity. Heres a another dilemma with the trinity. The trinity teaches God is a closed family—Father, Son and Holy Spirit when the scriptures teaches the opposite that God is a growing family full of sons and daughters.

I will comment on your article later

 

[AK4]

Now you are getting too complicated you went to all lengths to prove the triune God then you had a flight of thoughts “Since it says “in the beginning, God”, through rightly dividing the Word you have “in Firstfruit (Jesus),” dividing the word? What do you mean by it? To me it appears more a flight of thought than anything else the part that get me is you attack on other doctrines and the arrogant attitude that you show, what if we don’t share you interpretation, that these themes have been studied by theologian with far superior methods.

Maybe it got confusing because i didnt put your questions in quotes so it looks like i was posing the question and all over the place.

Im not being arrogant or attacking anyone. Im exposing the falseness in a doctrine. I know none of you guys will see or agree or share "my" interpretation (for i am not interpreting really i am quoting scripture matching spiritual with spiritual). Its not meant for all, or the many/masses to know the truths in this age. And as for the theologians "with far superior methods" they are also (not all, but most) the ones who brought in almost all of false doctrines and paganisms like hell, immortal soul, tithing, etc etc into christianity so one can decide to follow those people or actually search out for that pearl of great price themselves. Notice i put themselves.

Here i will re post how it should have went, you are in quotes

Quote:
emiliano
Quote:
I just don’t know where you taking this in reference to Rev 3:14, what I pointed out is that from the beginning God has reveal Himself a triune God. How this scripture that you cited contradict me?

Okay here we go. Since it says “in the beginning, God” , through rightly dividing the Word you have “in Firstfruit (Jesus), Elohim (God the Father and Jesus)” or to put it plainer “In Jesus, the Father through Jesus created the heavens and earth”. So we have the Father and Son here. Jesus is the Holy Spirit of God (see my last post in the thread http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/84261-who-spirit-truth-who-comforter.html to know how Jesus is the Holy Spirit). So if anything, God (Jesus, not the Father) is revealing Him and His Father. Rev 3:14 comes in to show you how you can know that it was indeed Jesus who was doing the creating and “hovering”. There is no third “entity” revealing any triune god.

How do you translate “the Faithful and True Witness”?

The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of Gods (notice Jesus has a God) creation. Jesus is the Amen. Jesus is the Faithful and true witness. Jesus is the very first thing the invisible, cant be seen or heard God the Father created.

Are the heavens and earth the only thing created?

No, Jesus was created before them. Then you have the heavens (which also has another meaning, but I will stick with what most people know right now) and all that are in the heavens (angels, stars , planets etc etc) then the earth.

Was it necessary for God to explained and give a detailed account and timetable to the people that he made contact with?

I don’t think anything is necessary for God, but in His wisdom He has done this in the Scriptures. Not in a line by line paragraph or single book, but He gives “here a little there a little” if you can “rightly divide the word” “comparing spiritual with spiritual”.

Example. Gen 1:1 it says in the beginning, yet you have in Job it says “the stars sang at the creation of the earth” (paraphrasing), yet still you have whats said in Rev 3:14 and other places about Jesus, and still yet you have in proverbs something mentioned even before that that pertains to the Father (which I think may have a dual meaning because the same can be applied to Jesus).

Yet through all of these the holy spirit is never mentioned as a separate entity/persons as the trinity doctrine dictates

 

[sojourner]

:areyoucra

:cover:

 

[AK4]

freespirit
The above sublime statement is confirmed in 1st John 3 – 2 - 3 and also in verses 6 – 7 and 9; for we read: “Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when he appears, we shall be like him, because we shall see resemble him just as he is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on him purifies himself just as he is pure. No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or knows him. Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous;No one who is born of God practices sin, because his seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

How can a serious believer overlook those inspiring and revealing scriptures, for they demand our undivided attention in examining ourselves, or are there some of us who prefer not to know the task at hand, happily deluding themselves? Although, some of the brethren do not have this hope, and will take offence if another boldly confesses to them to have that confidence in Christ; they fail to believe and or have misunderstood that Christ in them is the hope of righteousness. They mistakenly believe that human perfection in the eyes of God can only come after our physical death. An error well received and promoted by those who have not crucified their flesh, for they continue to love the way of this world.

Thats the once saved always saved doctrine, yet the scriptures--not bible translations---speak differently. Almost all the "saved" verses that people quote are in the aroists imperfect tense in the greek which means basically a repeated or continual action in the past. Look at those same verses from other translations

(CLV)
3 And everyone who has this expectation in Him is purifying himself, according as He is pure.
4 Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.
5 And you are aware that He was manifested that He should be taking away our sins, and in Him is no sin.
6 Everyone who is remaining in Him is not sinning. Everyone who is sinning sees Him not, neither knows Him.
7 Little children, let no one be deceiving you. He who is doing righteousness is just, according as He is just.
8 Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning. For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary.
9 Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

As for 1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin… (KJV)

He means to practice - be committing - repetitively committing, you can’t practice it. It doesn’t mean we won’t sin, we all sin, we all make mistakes, we all say dumb things and do dumb things. But you are not to make a practice of it. I mean you’ll goof up, you can try your best and you’re still going to screw up. But if you practice what you know is wrong, then I mean you are a long way from living right.

 

[free spirit]

Thats the once saved always saved doctrine, yet the scriptures--not bible translations---speak differently. Almost all the "saved" verses that people quote are in the aroists imperfect tense in the greek which means basically a repeated or continual action in the past. Look at those same verses from other translations

(CLV)
3 And everyone who has this expectation in Him is purifying himself, according as He is pure.
4 Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.
5 And you are aware that He was manifested that He should be taking away our sins, and in Him is no sin.
6 Everyone who is remaining in Him is not sinning. Everyone who is sinning sees Him not, neither knows Him.
7 Little children, let no one be deceiving you. He who is doing righteousness is just, according as He is just.
8 Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning. For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary.
9 Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

As for 1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin… (KJV)

He means to practice - be committing - repetitively committing, you can’t practice it. It doesn’t mean we won’t sin, we all sin, we all make mistakes, we all say dumb things and do dumb things. But you are not to make a practice of it. I mean you’ll goof up, you can try your best and you’re still going to screw up. But if you practice what you know is wrong, then I mean you are a long way from living right.

AK4 why do you use English full of ambiguities, Why not make a proper modern English translation; and please do not tell me that modern English cannot translate correctly. If you have the Holy Spirit you would know what the correct message is, so trust the freedom of your spirit, and do not be a prisoner of the letter of the word.
Your last paragraph puts you in no mans land "lukewarm for Christ" as it were; if your flesh have been buried with Christ, sin has no longer any power over you, for how can a dead man be tempted.

 

[free spirit]

:areyoucra

:cover:

Yes it is very frustrating to argue with a person that is so knowledgeable of the letter of the word.
As you know the knowledge of the word is important for teaching, but not necessary to live our life in the spirit of Christ.