Do you understand the New Testament

[sojourner]

Yes it is very frustrating to argue with a person that is so knowledgeable of the letter of the word.
As you know the knowledge of the word is important for teaching, but not necessary to live our life in the spirit of Christ.

Yet, Christ was called "Teacher..."

 

[free spirit]

Yet, Christ was called "Teacher..."

But only a few are called to teach

 

[AK4]

AK4 why do you use English full of ambiguities, Why not make a proper modern English translation; and please do not tell me that modern English cannot translate correctly. If you have the Holy Spirit you would know what the correct message is, so trust the freedom of your spirit, and do not be a prisoner of the letter of the word.
Your last paragraph puts you in no mans land "lukewarm for Christ" as it were; if your flesh have been buried with Christ, sin has no longer any power over you, for how can a dead man be tempted.

It seems ambiguous because of the translations we have been given by the translators. We all are probably most familiar with the King James Version more than any and many consider it to be the inerrant word of God, but thats far from true. Even the translators of it know this. Dont you think there was a reason Christ said the parables of the hidden treasure in the field and pearl of great price? You have to dig deep for these truths. They are not just plainly stated in the translations.

Many claim to have the Spirit and still believe that God is going to torture unmercilessly most of mankind in some terrorists hellhole. Dont you think there is a reason Christ said many will worship Him in vain? Many claim to know the overall message but still deny major truths like the resurrection. They thumb they nose at and by-pass the resurrection when they say people die and go to heaven or hell. Is that real worshipping of the truth? Many dont just sit down and really think about the doctrines they believe in.

You are taking the prisoner of the letter all wrong. Yes i am a prisoner/slave of the Word of God and Jesus is that Word. The letter represents the Law (the ten commandments and such) I am not a prisoner to those, but i am. Too long explain here so i wont.

Did you notice what Christ was saying about the lukewarm people of that church---they think they are rich and in need of nothing ("If you have the Holy Spirit you would know what the correct message is"). How many in the churches feel this way? They take what there preacher says as truth and thats it. They claim to have the Spirit and know the message and still produce no fruit or worship in vain. I in no way am judging them. They are to judge (for) themselves. They think they know a truth because of what they read in a bible that could have been translated wrong or had words added or deleted. With those two possibilities done to the Original Scriptures, cant you see how so many "worship in vain" and feel as if they are "rich and in need of nothing"---(that rich and in need of nothing (no more truth) is basically the "feel good doctrine taught by protestants and i believe it started from Martin Luther).

When i sold all my possesions and followed Christ, it was the churches of christendom that had the ambiguous words and doctrines. Truly theirs are confusing and contradictory

 

[free spirit]

It seems ambiguous because of the translations we have been given by the translators. We all are probably most familiar with the King James Version more than any and many consider it to be the inerrant word of God, but thats far from true. Even the translators of it know this. Dont you think there was a reason Christ said the parables of the hidden treasure in the field and pearl of great price? You have to dig deep for these truths. They are not just plainly stated in the translations.

The truth is; That God now is gathering Sons and Daughters for himself. I like the New American Standard Bible the 1960 to the 1977 version.

Many claim to have the Spirit and still believe that God is going to torture unmercilessly most of mankind in some terrorists hellhole. Dont you think there is a reason Christ said many will worship Him in vain? Many claim to know the overall message but still deny major truths like the resurrection. They thumb they nose at and by-pass the resurrection when they say people die and go to heaven or hell. Is that real worshipping of the truth? Many dont just sit down and really think about the doctrines they believe in.

you are correct many are superficial and or under a delusion. However the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

You are taking the prisoner of the letter all wrong. Yes i am a prisoner/slave of the Word of God and Jesus is that Word. The letter represents the Law (the ten commandments and such) I am not a prisoner to those, but i am. Too long explain here so i wont.

There is freedom in Christ, for he gives understanding, so we do not have to be prisoners of those translators; remember the living word is in you, the letter of the word is in books and it has been subjected to human voluntary and involuntary errors.

Did you notice what Christ was saying about the lukewarm people of that church---they think they are rich and in need of nothing ("If you have the Holy Spirit you would know what the correct message is"). How many in the churches feel this way? They take what there preacher says as truth and thats it. They claim to have the Spirit and know the message and still produce no fruit or worship in vain. I in no way am judging them. They are to judge (for) themselves. They think they know a truth because of what they read in a bible that could have been translated wrong or had words added or deleted. With those two possibilities done to the Original Scriptures, cant you see how so many "worship in vain" and feel as if they are "rich and in need of nothing"---(that rich and in need of nothing (no more truth) is basically the "feel good doctrine taught by protestants and i believe it started from Martin Luther).

I can feel your pain, so speak to me as an equal brother in Christ. People will believe according to theirs deep seated convictions, we can only place the truth in front of them, if they eat or drink from it is up to them.

When i sold all my possesions and followed Christ, it was the churches of christendom that had the ambiguous words and doctrines. Truly theirs are confusing and contradictory

The truth of God is simple, for God has made it possible even for the uneducated to know the truth.

WHAT IS TRUTH?
All believers, regardless of denominational creed search for the assurance of understanding what is truth, because it seems that truth in this world is continually changing, as in what was true yesterday is no longer true today. However you can be assured that God’s universal truth is still the same as it has always been, unaltered and unalterable. As darkness cannot put out the light, even so lies and speculations cannot alter the truth. But unfortunately the lies and speculations have the capacity to lure us to focus on other unimportant things, those things may be not necessarily bad, nevertheless they are sufficient to cause us to miss the true purpose of our call, which is to walk towards God’s universal unchangeable truth.

You may well ask, what is God’s universal unchangeable truth? Bear with me for a moment, and God willing I will try to point it out to you. In the gospel of John 18 – 33 to 38, we read of an exchange between Pilate the Roman governor and Jesus. It unfolds in the following manner: “Pilate therefore entered again into the praetorium, and summoned Jesus, and said to him: Are you the king of the Jews? Jesus answered, “Are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about me?” Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priest delivered you up to me; what have you done?” Jesus answered. My kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world, then my servant would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, my kingdom is not of this realm.”
Pilate therefore said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered: “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.”
Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, “I find no guilt in him.”

If we superficially read the above exchange between Pilate and Jesus we will also be left asking, “What is truth?” But if we look more closely some interesting facts will emerge. Such as “He has come into the world to bear witness to the truth.” And then Jesus makes an extraordinary statement about the human race. “Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.” What does it mean? And how did Jesus, by coming into the world beared witness to the truth? Or, how can anyone be of the truth? The answer of course, through God’s wisdom, is staring at us in the face, we can all see it, but it can’t be perceived, unless it is spiritually revealed to us.

Because by the wisdom of God, the answer to “what is truth?” came out from Pilate’s own mouth, in the form of his judgement of Jesus. “I find no guilt in him.” In other words, “he is holy,” “he is without sin.” We can see, that by being holy even unto death he has fulfilled his primary mission, which speaks thus, “He has come into the world to bear witness to the truth.” That is to say, Jesus has shown us in words and deeds how to be holy, or how to be of the truth. (Which is not by mere chance the heart of the gospel.)

And so we came to the most simple and worldwide-understood principle, because on the day that we are also to face judgement, that is all the truth that matters, for God will judge the world only according to our holiness or lack of it. Think about it, is it possible to believe in God, and yet practice sin? Is believing some denominational doctrine or an historical fact enough to be saved? Does not even Satan believe?

But by the grace of God, we of the human race have been given a golden opportunity; “to be of the truth, which enables us to hear his still and holy voice” all we have to have is the sincere desire to be holy, (Remember Cornelius Acts 10 – 1 to 4,) and if we are a true believer that should not be too difficult for us. After that the Holy Spirit will lead each individual into repentance, for he knows the right way for each one of us, and as we obey the prompting of the Holy Spirit, our inner attitude toward our fellow men and ourselves will change for the better, until we are at peace with God, at peace with ourselves and with the world.

And on the day of judgement the righteous judge also will utter from his mouth, “I find no guilt in him.” On that day we will be changed from, “who is of the truth” into “who is part of the truth.”

What more is there to say? For I am fully convinced that if one doesn’t know anything, about anything, but practises the beliefs that are in Jesus and, or, lives his life by the principles of the gospel of holiness, he, I am sure is acceptable to God.
Because “Truth” in God’s eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, therefore, the day will come when only “Truth” will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say that“Truth” is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.

In John 14 – 6, Jesus said, “I am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the father, but through me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the “Truth” because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because he is the eternal Word = life

Glory to God

 

[AK4]

Quote: freespirit
The truth is; That God now is gathering Sons and Daughters for himself. I like the New American Standard Bible the 1960 to the 1977 version.

Although all of them have their flaws and strengths, I like the NIV for the plain speech, but the KJV I have more keywords memorized. But to dig down on what a verse probably was meant to be (if there may be a problem where it may contradict something else) I like YLT and the Concordant. Rotherhams is pretty good too.

you are correct many are superficial and or under a delusion. However the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Yes, it’s the milk. Even the devils and demons fear Him. But I like this verse because it shows the heart of God.

Psalms 103:13 - Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.

My fear has turned to reverence and love, I don’t fear Him any more. Its more like respect and honor and glorifying Him. But I still do fear than at anytime, if it is part of His will/plan, He could take away His truths and grace and faith from me and I be back in darkness.

There is freedom in Christ, for he gives understanding, so we do not have to be prisoners of those translators; remember the living word is in you, the letter of the word is in books and it has been subjected to human voluntary and involuntary errors.

Yes there is total freedom in Christ. And many are still imprisoned to doctrines because of faulty translations. I only point some of them out so whoever reads what I put can search these out for themselves. The Lucifer hoax is the biggest of them all, next is the olam/aion where they have butchered into forever and ever and everlasting and eternal. Then you have the word hell. These three have destroyed (among many others) have destroyed the Gospel message and many/most are unknowingly enslaved to these and the doctrines they promote or started. The 11 second sinners prayer also known as the once saved always saved/feel good conversion was all started by a single word ADDED to a verse and this is how it was made extremely easy for many to fall into the Laodicea church or the servant who didn’t multiply the talent Jesus gave Him. See I am just throwing out here clues to help people see past the delusions



I can feel your pain, so speak to me as an equal brother in Christ. People will believe according to theirs deep seated convictions, we can only place the truth in front of them, if they eat or drink from it is up to them.

I’m sorry. I not yelling or anything, with you when I put something in capitol letters its just for emphasis that’s all. As a fellow brother I am trying to show you some things I and others have found to be contradictory to the Word. I am giving you these things so you can search them out yourself and see if I say is true or not. Never just take my word for it. I have seen in your posts that you at least have seen some of the things the world and the “church” have deluded us with. Believe me its a lot deeper than you can imagine. The simplicity in Christ is once you learn a truth and never let it go you become able to see all the lies that are out there.

I tell my girlfriend (and she is not a believer and still is deeply caught in the delusion) all the time that this world is like one big lie on top of another. And the more you search out something you can find this. Theres only one thing that has been true and the more I question it and search it out the truer it becomes and that the Word of God. I tell you the truth and it is no lie, if I come to something in the scriptures and it seems to be contradictory to anything else in the scripture I beg God for understanding and He shows me how it is not contradictory. For God is not a God of confusion and contradictions. If one believes that then they might as well throw away their faith.

Seriously I do this out of love hoping that God will open the eyes of someone to see through the deceptions of the devil.

The truth of God is simple, for God has made it possible even for the uneducated to know the truth.

Tis true. I don’t consider myself educated at all, but im also no dummy. I also realized that God purposely in this age has only opened up the truth to only a few. The scriptures say this, but not many will believe it.

 

[AK4]

My comments are between yours freespirit

WHAT IS TRUTH?
All believers, regardless of denominational creed search for the assurance of understanding what is truth, because it seems that truth in this world is continually changing, as in what was true yesterday is no longer true today. However you can be assured that God’s universal truth is still the same as it has always been, unaltered and unalterable. As darkness cannot put out the light, even so lies and speculations cannot alter the truth. But unfortunately the lies and speculations have the capacity to lure us to focus on other unimportant things, those things may be not necessarily bad, nevertheless they are sufficient to cause us to miss the true purpose of our call, which is to walk towards God’s universal unchangeable truth.

Question---If on the surface something seems true, but ultimately when you question and dig deeper into you find out it aint true, is that surface truth ultimately still true? A couple of doctrines come to mind here.


Pilate therefore said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered: “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.”
Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, “I find no guilt in him.”

If we superficially read the above exchange between Pilate and Jesus we will also be left asking, “What is truth?” But if we look more closely some interesting facts will emerge. Such as “He has come into the world to bear witness to the truth.” And then Jesus makes an extraordinary statement about the human race. “Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.” What does it mean? And how did Jesus, by coming into the world beared witness to the truth? Or, how can anyone be of the truth? The answer of course, through God’s wisdom, is staring at us in the face, we can all see it, but it can’t be perceived, unless it is spiritually revealed to us.

Because by the wisdom of God, the answer to “what is truth?” came out from Pilate’s own mouth, in the form of his judgement of Jesus. “I find no guilt in him.” In other words, “he is holy,” “he is without sin.” We can see, that by being holy even unto death he has fulfilled his primary mission, which speaks thus, “He has come into the world to bear witness to the truth.” That is to say, Jesus has shown us in words and deeds how to be holy, or how to be of the truth. (Which is not by mere chance the heart of the gospel.)

And so we came to the most simple and worldwide-understood principle, because on the day that we are also to face judgement, that is all the truth that matters, for God will judge the world only according to our holiness or lack of it. Think about it, is it possible to believe in God, and yet practice sin? Is believing some denominational doctrine or an historical fact enough to be saved? Does not even Satan believe?

But by the grace of God, we of the human race have been given a golden opportunity; “to be of the truth, which enables us to hear his still and holy voice” all we have to have is the sincere desire to be holy, (Remember Cornelius Acts 10 – 1 to 4,) and if we are a true believer that should not be too difficult for us. After that the Holy Spirit will lead each individual into repentance, for he knows the right way for each one of us, and as we obey the prompting of the Holy Spirit, our inner attitude toward our fellow men and ourselves will change for the better, until we are at peace with God, at peace with ourselves and with the world.

Question---What is it one must be doing to be holy? Is it just a sincere desire? Or is there a lot more to it? The scriptures speak of many sincerely desiring, but will fall away and never overcome. If they fall away are making it in the first resurrection? And if ya really break it downwho is the one who doing something really? Is it God or is it the person?

And on the day of judgement the righteous judge also will utter from his mouth, “I find no guilt in him.” On that day we will be changed from, “who is of the truth” into “who is part of the truth.”

Uhm really that is not scriptural. There is judgment happening now to His elect and those who are not in the first resurrection are resurrected to judgment. “31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.” (1 Cor 11:31-32)
I no of nowhere where it says that at THE judgment (Great White Throne) the Just would be there being judged again.


What more is there to say? For I am fully convinced that if one doesn’t know anything, about anything, but practises the beliefs that are in Jesus and, or, lives his life by the principles of the gospel of holiness, he, I am sure is acceptable to God.

Yes all will be eventually acceptable, but if one doesn’t know anything about anything? Yes the scriptures do say you don’t have to know all truths, but there are some major ones that if you believe and live by that false truth you are actually denying Jesus…i.e. free will, trinity, immortal soul just to name a few.
Free will---deny Gods Sovereignty, the need for a Saviour/God etc etc etc
Trinity---deny Jesus was sent by God the Father, and is the actual Son of God etc etc etc
Immortal soul---deny Jesus, the resurrection, etc etc etc

Because “Truth” in God’s eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, therefore, the day will come when only “Truth” will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say that“Truth” is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.

In John 14 – 6, Jesus said, “I am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the father, but through me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the “Truth” because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because he is the eternal Word = life

Glory to God

 

[free spirit]

My comments are between yours freespirit

WHAT IS TRUTH?
All believers, regardless of denominational creed search for the assurance of understanding what is truth, because it seems that truth in this world is continually changing, as in what was true yesterday is no longer true today. However you can be assured that God’s universal truth is still the same as it has always been, unaltered and unalterable.

Question---If on the surface something seems true, but ultimately when you question and dig deeper into you find out it ain't true, is that surface truth ultimately still true? A couple of doctrines come to mind here.
You can believe all your life that the world is flat and the sun rises from the east, this ain't true: is that a sin? No it ain't a sin because your lifestyle is not effected by that. Ultimately we will be judged by only our lifestyle.


Pilate therefore said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered: “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.”
Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, “I find no guilt in him.”

If we superficially read the above exchange between Pilate and Jesus we will also be left asking, “What is truth?” But if we look more closely some interesting facts will emerge. Such as “He has come into the world to bear witness to the truth.” And then Jesus makes an extraordinary statement about the human race. “Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.” What does it mean? And how did Jesus, by coming into the world beared witness to the truth? Or, how can anyone be of the truth? The answer of course, through God’s wisdom, is staring at us in the face, we can all see it, but it can’t be perceived, unless it is spiritually revealed to us.

Because by the wisdom of God, the answer to “what is truth?” came out from Pilate’s own mouth, in the form of his judgement of Jesus. “I find no guilt in him.” In other words, “he is holy,” “he is without sin.” We can see, that by being holy even unto death he has fulfilled his primary mission, which speaks thus, “He has come into the world to bear witness to the truth.” That is to say, Jesus has shown us in words and deeds how to be holy, or how to be of the truth. (Which is not by mere chance the heart of the gospel.)

And so we came to the most simple and worldwide-understood principle, because on the day that we are also to face judgement, that is all the truth that matters, for God will judge the world only according to our holiness or lack of it. Think about it, is it possible to believe in God, and yet practice sin? Is believing some denominational doctrine or an historical fact enough to be saved? Does not even Satan believe?

But by the grace of God, we of the human race have been given a golden opportunity; “to be of the truth, which enables us to hear his still and holy voice” all we have to have is the sincere desire to be holy, (Remember Cornelius Acts 10 – 1 to 4,) and if we are a true believer that should not be too difficult for us. After that the Holy Spirit will lead each individual into repentance, for he knows the right way for each one of us, and as we obey the prompting of the Holy Spirit, our inner attitude toward our fellow men and ourselves will change for the better, until we are at peace with God, at peace with ourselves and with the world.

Question---What is it one must be doing to be holy? Is it just a sincere desire? Or is there a lot more to it? The scriptures speak of many sincerely desiring, but will fall away and never overcome. If they fall away are making it in the first resurrection? And if ya really break it downwho is the one who doing something really? Is it God or is it the person?
We all have faults and sins, Christ has a tailor made garment of repentance for each one of us, if you know what is sin you also know how to be holy. Sincerity must be followed by facts, so resist temptation and do good like Cornelius. I leave the details to the Lord, I trust him to be mercifull with me. I do not break it down for ultimately I am responsible for my actions good or bad. I believe that good and evil are constantly trying to influence me, I have chosen to obey the good in me.

And on the day of judgement the righteous judge also will utter from his mouth, “I find no guilt in him.” On that day we will be changed from, “who is of the truth” into “who is part of the truth.”

Uhm really that is not scriptural. There is judgment happening now to His elect and those who are not in the first resurrection are resurrected to judgment. “31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.” (1 Cor 11:31-32)
I no of nowhere where it says that at THE judgment (Great White Throne) the Just would even be there
Yes it is not scriptural, but we are not yet at the great white throne; we are in transit as it were so I speak that way. Revelation 20: 13 and 15; "and the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
and if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.' I like to point out to you they were judged according to their deeds; and not according to what they believed. Do not get me wrong knowledge is power and reassurance, but it is not what will get you into heaven. What will get you into heaven is GOD'S TRUTH = HOLINESS. Because it is possible to know all misteryes and yet miss out.


What more is there to say? For I am fully convinced that if one doesn’t know anything, about anything, but practises the beliefs that are in Jesus and, or, lives his life by the principles of the gospel of holiness, he, I am sure is acceptable to God.

Yes all will be eventually acceptable, but if one doesn’t know anything about anything? Yes the scriptures do say you don’t have to know all truths, but there are some major ones that if you believe and live by that false truth you are actually denying Jesus…i.e. free will, trinity, immortal soul just to name a few.
Free will---deny Gods Sovereignty, the need for a Saviour/God etc etc etc
Trinity---deny Jesus was sent by God the Father, and is the actual Son of God etc etc etc
Immortal soul---deny Jesus, the resurrection, etc etc etc
If you do not know any of that, or you believe all of that; but your lifestyle is immersed in the love of God and your neighbor, how can God reject you?

Because “Truth” in God’s eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, therefore, the day will come when only “Truth” will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say that“Truth” is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.

In John 14 – 6, Jesus said, “I am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the father, but through me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the “Truth” because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because he is the eternal Word = life

Glory to God

It is important to know that we are different in character, personality and ministry, to you it may be important to know every details, who knows if you have been given a teaching ministry, but for others it is not important to know that, for the majority of believers is important to live life with the love of God ever present in our words and action's.

 

[AK4]

quote freespirit
You can believe all your life that the world is flat and the sun rises from the east, this ain't true: is that a sin? No it ain't a sin because your lifestyle is not effected by that. Ultimately we will be judged by only our lifestyle.


Think about it, that cant be true. If you believe the Lucifer hoax story taught by the churches, JUST THIS ONE LIE, you can see how much one belief in one lie can destroy exactly what you are worshipping and how it blasphemes and demeans the Almighty God

Satan
1. was Lucifer
2. was Gods first creation,
3. created himself
4. perfect in all his ways
5. was an angel of light, light bringer
6. was an archangel
7. was good but turned bad
8. did this by his supposed own free will
9. the upmost proof that we have free will
10. God does not have the power to prevent Lucifer from turning bad
11. The Omniscient, all knowing God didn’t know Lucifer would turn bad
12. A perfect creation by a perfect God malfunctioned (think about that)
13. God failed on two experiments—creating perfect obeying angels and creating perfect obeying humans
14. Satan and God are in a battle and when the chips are all counted in the end, Satan wins
15. God didn’t create satan
16. God didn’t create evil
17. God doesn’t use evil for good
18. God is not responsible for His creation
19. All is not out of God
20. Jesus didn’t come out of/from God, He was/is God eternally
21. Jesus is eternal/always existed, not God’s first creation
22. God does not and will not interfere in all His creations’ choices
23. Because God gave satan freewill, we have freewill and some will choose to disobey and go to heaven or hell.
24. because we have free will, we can choose on our own to follow God or not
25. Adam and Eve chose to disobey God on their own, hence the fall doctrine
26. We have the ability to do good and follow God, so technically we don’t need a saviour
27. Gods plan for creation has/is going all wrong. God doesn’t think before doing
28. Gods doesn’t get His desires, wishes, wants because of mans free will
29. Man has the ability to thwart the Will of God
30. etc etc etc, but ultimately GOD IS NOT SOVEREIGN


The list could go on and on with the doctrines that came from this one lie and it all started from one lie. Can you see by believing the Lucifer story in so many ways you are not following God, praising God, worshipping God or even living your lifestyle the way God commands.

2 Peter 1:5-11 - [5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren F3 nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 

[AK4]

We all have faults and sins, Christ has a tailor made garment of repentance for each one of us, if you know what is sin you also know how to be holy. Sincerity must be followed by facts, so resist temptation and do good like Cornelius. I leave the details to the Lord, I trust him to be just with me. I do not break it down for ultimately I am responsible for my actions good or bad. I believe that good and evil are constantly trying to influence me, I have chosen to obey the good in me.


How do someone really know what is a sin if they have been deceived all their life about that one sin? Unknowingly they may be committing a sin, while being deceived, sincerely doing something (like worshipping) that constitutes sin. Christ plainly says some will worship Him in vain

I like to point out to you they were judged according to their deeds; and not according to what they believed. Do not get me wrong knowledge is power and reassurance, but it is not what will get you into heaven. What will get you into heaven is GOD'S TRUTH = HOLINESS. it is possible to know all misteryes and yet miss out.

Your deeds should follow from your beliefs. Am I right? If you follow/believe Christ, your deeds should be like His. That’s how judgment will go. If you believe a lie and follow that lie (even sincerely to the best of your ability) yours deeds will follow after that lie. If you worship Jesus and say He will reign for ever and ever (a lie) then is this not worshipping in vain? If you worship Jesus as eternal (always existed)(a lie also) then are not worshipping in vain? If you believe the myth of freewill, your actions and thoughts and deeds definitely will follow and this squarely strikes at the Sovereignty of God, is this not, even if done in the most sincere way, worshipping in vain?


If you do not know any of that, or you believe all of that; but your lifestyle is immersed in the love of God and your neighbor, how can God reject you?

I don’t know (well sorta I do but I wont say anything right now), but those are His rules He made. That is why we have verses telling us that there will be MANY, not just some but MANY, who will worship Him in vain, call Him Lord Lord, say that He is the Christ and cast out demons—perform miracles—and do WONDERFUL works in His name. And yet still be called false prophets, teachers, ministers, disciples who He (Jesus) will say “depart from Me, I never knew you”. Yet they probably also loved God and their neighbor.

For instance, lets say you love God and your neighbor to the sincerest degree you possible can, yet you believe in free will. Every now and then you say “Thanks to God I am able to perform this love act”. Question: In your belief of free will, who performed this act of love, you or Jesus in you? Almost all will say Jesus in me. Okay, now do you truly believe that or that you did it? In other words do you believe that you did it on your own, with no influence, cause, inspiration, force from God. Most will say of course God influenced me---Do you really believe it or do you believe God put into man to be able to do/choose good on their own so God can just sit back and watch everything from a far off and they can make choices off of their “gift of freewill”? Remember the definition of free will says its not even influenced by DIVINE forces. Do you truly believe “it is GOD who CAUSES you BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure”, whether its good or bad, whether you’ve been made to be a vessel of honor or dishonor? So back to the topic do you believe you did the work or that it was God who did the work? Most will openly say it was God, but in their heart (God judges the heart, remember the idol of the heart verses) they believe in this freewill/choice/moral agency which once again I will remind you thwarts at the Sovereignty of God.

 

[AK4]

It is important to know that we are different in character, personality and ministry, to you it may be important to know every details, who knows if you have been given a teaching ministry, but for others it is not important to know that, for the majority of believers is important to live life with the love of God ever present in our words and action's.

No I don’t have a teaching ministry at all, nor do I teach or can (im really pretty sloppy with my words as you probably already could tell). It would seem that the details wouldn’t be that important but it’s the details that can show one how much of a lie a doctrine really is. See people read the verses where Jesus and the Apostles say love God and your neighbor and just leave it at that. They don’t look at the details God delivered through Them to see How they can love the REAL God or really love God and how to really love their neighbor. They take the lowest denominator and leave it there. That’s how the churches (mainly protestants) teach. There was reason God used all those letters and epistles and scrolls.

I only used caps for emphasis.


Honestly freespirit I am not arguing with you or anyone to try “to win the debate”or convert or anything like that. Im not going to go into a long story (i know i already long-winded) but I do try to get people to actually think deeper and question everything

 

[free spirit]

quote freespirit
You can believe all your life that the world is flat and the sun rises from the east, this ain't true: is that a sin? No it ain't a sin because your lifestyle is not effected by that. Ultimately we will be judged by only our lifestyle.


Think about it, that cant be true. If you believe the Lucifer hoax story taught by the churches, JUST THIS ONE LIE, you can see how much one belief in one lie can destroy exactly what you are worshipping and how it blasphemes and demeans the Almighty God

The list could go on and on with the doctrines that came from this one lie and it all started from one lie. Can you see by believing the Lucifer story in so many ways you are not following God, praising God, worshipping God or even living your lifestyle the way God commands.

2 Peter 1:5-11 - [5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren F3 nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

TO AK4
1st Corinthians 13:1 to 2 is specific on the matter for we read: “If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophesy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love I am nothing.”

For that reason I believe that 2nd Peter 1:5 to 11, is very important. This passage WITH MY HELP explicitly describes how our progress from faith to love is achieved. We read: “Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, you will acquire knowledge; and in your knowledge, supply self-control, and in your self-control, you will acquire perseverance, and in your perseverance, you will also acquire godliness; and in your godliness, supplybrotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, you will acquire love.
For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about his calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.”

It is clear therefore, that we should live the life of Christ according to the spiritual knowledge we have obtained, and read the New Testament Scriptures without any preconceived denominational ideas. Each time we read the Scriptures our faith and understanding absorbs only what it needs at that time to grow a little further.


As we all know God is the sovereign of the universe, there is nothing in the universe that occur which he does not know about. Even little things as Jesus said in Matthew 10: 29-30, “Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.”

Man was made in the image of God; in other words man was given God’s freedom to create intelligent thought and words, therefore unlike the rest of God’s creation man was given autonomy.
With the advent of the eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil man became like a God, for we read in Genesis 3: 22, “Then the Lord God said, ‘behold the man has become like one of us, Knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever,”’

With the God given autonomy man managed to greatly offend God, for we read in Genesis 6: 5 to 7, “Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and he was grieved in his heart. And the Lord said, I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”

Here we must pause and reflect on what God said, like “Behold the man has become like one of us.” Here I can be excused for asking which one? I believe man became like the Son of God. Because in the future the Son of God will be also known as the son of man.
Furthermore we know that all things were created by the thoughts and word of God, and we also know that the thoughts and word of God is Jesus, so the intent and thoughts of man’s heart had became only evil continually, the very one that the lord had made in his own image.

The Son of God knows good and evil but he can only do good, in contrast man also knows good and evil but he can only intent to do evil.
Thus far the autonomy of man is unquestionable

A new beginning with Noah Genesis 8 – and 9.

Verse 20, Then Noah built an alter to the lord and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
And the lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the lord said to himself, “ I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living things, as I have done. While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease. And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.

Genesis 12: 1 to 3, “now the Lord said to Abram, “Go forth from your country, and from your relatives and from your father’s house, to the land which I will show you; and I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great; and so you shall be a blessing; and I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Here God has made a choice, to make the likes of Abram his chosen people, the rest will be treated by God as they treat his chosen people.
Note God’s choice is not according to blood descendants but according to spiritual attitude.
So here again man’s autonomy is maintained.
AK4 THIS IS WORK IN PROGRESS

 

[AK4]

Quote freespirit

For that reason I believe that 2nd Peter 1:5 to 11,. We read: “Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, you will acquire knowledge; ....For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

Notice it says “these qualities are increasing” and one of those is knowledge. So its not just love that should increase. In love I have been sharing the some of the things God has opened up my eyes to and in love I continue to try to increase what knowledge I have in the deep things of God and share it with any who wants to hear it. I don’t just sit “lukewarm” in what I know, I must increase it. This in return should humble someone more and more and your love should increase.

As we all know God is the sovereign of the universe, there is nothing in the universe that occur which he does not know about. Even little things as Jesus said in Matthew 10: 29-30, “Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.”



Yet that is the idea and doctrine of free will, free moral agency and free choice. In this God has no sovereignty. Man thinks “yeah God knows about it but He is not the one who brought it about. We did by our freewill and actions and choices, so He did not really bring it about nor is He responsible. We are”. Nobody truly sits down and really think about this, especially when the evidence is so clear. Even scientists are starting to see it, but the churches will not at all let this idol of the heart go.


Man was made in the image of God;

No, he IS BEING made in Gods image. We are not there yet and no one has save One, Jesus.

in other words man was given God’s freedom to create intelligent thought and words,

Is this done without God? Freewill---Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces (Dictionary.com Unabridged). Once God chose to be good, He no longer has freedom to be anything other than good. How do I know that because He Himself says so. So that right there limits his freedom therefore He no longer has the choice/freedom to be either evil or good. He can only be good. If not He’s a liar and all of our faith is in vain because then God can change.

therefore unlike the rest of God’s creation man was given autonomy.


Autonomy—

• independence or freedom, as of the will or one's actions—can you see the contradiction in this definition here?
• the condition of being autonomous; self-government, or the right of self-government;
• independence a self-governing community.

Do not animals and insects do the same thing? I can name some that do it this. Do they have free will?


With the advent of the eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil man became like a God,

So now its back to free moral agency and we know what the Word says about man being able to do good by themselves, independent of God.


With the God given autonomy man managed to greatly offend God,

We call it instincts in animals and insects, so we can say “with the instincts God gave man, we managed to greatly offend God”. After all God is the Creator of all right? Notice in the very verse you quoted God admits THREE TIMES to creating us like such--

Genesis 6: 5 to 7, “Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and he was grieved in his heart. And the Lord said, I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”


You notice that? Seriously ask yourself---Do I really believe God is all knowing, meaning He even knows the future? If you say yes then you have the dilemma and must answer the question—If God is all knowing and knows the future, did God know when He first created us with a freewill/free choice/free moral agency that we would have “every intent of our thoughts of our heart only evil continually”? Did God know this before hand? Think about it. Did God know all the events that would happen that would even lead up to Gen 6:5-7? Your answers should lead you up to something I pointed out to you before but you didn’t want to accept, but you said it sounded true. Think about it---if God is the creator of all and created us with this free will/ free choice/free moral agency/ autonomy/instincts, wouldn’t it be true that God created evil?

I understand the dilemma this puts one through, but here is something that can help your thoughts----in the end God says He will be all in all and all will be saved so even if God did create evil it must be for a noble reason which you should come to the conclusion that God created and uses evil for a good/grand purpose. This should also lead you to this whole thing on free will—If God has planned something from AND before the beginning AND knows the end already, where can free will/ free choice/free moral agency fit into this plan since by its definition “is not simply determined by physical or divine forces”


The Son of God knows good and evil but he can only do good, in contrast man also knows good and evil but he can only intent to do evil.
Thus far the autonomy of man is unquestionable

Ask yourself why is it that the Son of God can only do good. If you find a reason and believe me its in the Word then you have a cause/reason/circumstances or any other word you can think of and you’d see that even Jesus’s will was not free or autonomy (independence/freedom) from the Father. (Even if you wrongly try to look at it through the fabled trinity)

See only the Father (not Jesus) could have what we suppose as free will, but even He had set “boundaries” on Himself to where He chose to be good over evil. Once He set those boundaries on Himself, He no longer has a freewill. See He set a cause/a circumstance/”a law” in place that will always influence His own will so He can never ever freely chose to something other than good. Do you get it? There is a law, a circumstance, a law set in place that will always influence His will so His will is never free. Every choice chosen after that cause/law/circumstance is never freely chosen. So even God the Father doesn’t have what we suppose anymore. So when He created Jesus, Jesus was influenced by His Fathers will and had to learn (that’s right learn) obedience which makes Jesus’s will not free either because since He is to represent the Father, He (Jesus) has to do what His Father always tell Him. This is not just me talking I can back all this up with scriptures. Oh but if one believes in this trinity garbage youll never see what I just said.

 

[free spirit]

TO AK4

Quote freespirit

For that reason I believe that 2nd Peter 1:5 to 11,. We read: “Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, you will acquire knowledge; ....For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

Notice it says “these qualities are increasing” and one of those is knowledge. So its not just love that should increase. In love I have been sharing the some of the things God has opened up my eyes to and in love I continue to try to increase what knowledge I have in the deep things of God and share it with any who wants to hear it. I don’t just sit “lukewarm” in what I know, I must increase it. This in return should humble someone more and more and your love should increase.
Yes faith and knowledge is the vehicle, our attitude and acts is the driving power, but the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ is to have his sacrificial love in us, this kind of love when has become sacrificial cannot increase any further for it is Christ like.

As we all know God is the sovereign of the universe, there is nothing in the universe that occur which he does not know about. Even little things as Jesus said in Matthew 10: 29-30, “Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.”



Yet that is the idea and doctrine of free will, free moral agency and free choice. In this God has no sovereignty. Man thinks “yeah God knows about it but He is not the one who brought it about. We did by our freewill and actions and choices, so He did not really bring it about nor is He responsible. We are”. Nobody truly sits down and really think about this, especially when the evidence is so clear. Even scientists are starting to see it, but the churches will not at all let this idol of the heart go.
You know I did think about this and I do find the notion troubling, because it puts all good and all evil on God shoulders, but my heart knows that God is holy and holiness is the opposite to evil. so please explain how do you reconcile the two.
By the way I thank God for all the knowledge and the increases even for the discipline that cames from the most unexpected quoter's. But I do not thank him for the evil in the world, do you?


Man was made in the image of God;

No, he IS BEING made in Gods image. We are not there yet and no one has save One, Jesus.
God by giving the gift of the word and reason to man made man in his image. Now man is BEING made in the likeness of God through the sacrificial love of Christ.

in other words man was given God’s freedom to create intelligent thought and words,

Is this done without God? Freewill---Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces (Dictionary.com Unabridged). Once God chose to be good, He no longer has freedom to be anything other than good. How do I know that because He Himself says so. So that right there limits his freedom therefore He no longer has the choice/freedom to be either evil or good. He can only be good. If not He’s a liar and all of our faith is in vain because then God can change.
Well if you make a verbal contract, you are bound by that, but before you made that contract you were free not to make it. So what is your point?

therefore unlike the rest of God’s creation man was given autonomy.






Autonomy—

• independence or freedom, as of the will or one's actions—can you see the contradiction in this definition here?
• the condition of being autonomous; self-government, or the right of self-government;
• independence a self-governing community.

Do not animals and insects do the same thing? I can name some that do it this. Do they have free will?
Animals respond to situations by instinct and not by reason. 2 Peter 2: 11 to 22. explain to you what man do by his instinct.


With the advent of the eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil man became like a God,

So now its back to free moral agency and we know what the Word says about man being able to do good by themselves, independent of God.
no, man can only do good with the Spirit of Christ in him. But it is up to you to ask for the gift of the Holy Spirit.


With the God given autonomy man managed to greatly offend God,

We call it instincts in animals and insects, so we can say “with the instincts God gave man, we managed to greatly offend God”. After all God is the Creator of all right? Notice in the very verse you quoted God admits THREE TIMES to creating us like such--

Genesis 6: 5 to 7, “Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and he was grieved in his heart. And the Lord said, I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Yes he made us with the free faculty of reason, but man decided to disobey, the rest is history.


Go to next post please

 

[free spirit]

You notice that? Seriously ask yourself---Do I really believe God is all knowing, meaning He even knows the future? If you say yes then you have the dilemma and must answer the question—If God is all knowing and knows the future, did God know when He first created us with a freewill/free choice/free moral agency that we would have “every intent of our thoughts of our heart only evil continually”? Did God know this before hand? Think about it. Did God know all the events that would happen that would even lead up to Gen 6:5-7? Your answers should lead you up to something I pointed out to you before but you didn’t want to accept, but you said it sounded true. Think about it---if God is the creator of all and created us with this free will/ free choice/free moral agency/ autonomy/instincts, wouldn’t it be true that God created evil?

I cannot accept that God created evil, what I can accept is that evil existed from the beginning in God; but having decided to will himself as an inheritance to his children he also decided that there should be no evil in them

I understand the dilemma this puts one through, but here is something that can help your thoughts----in the end God says He will be all in all and all will be saved so even if God did create evil it must be for a noble reason which you should come to the conclusion that God created and uses evil for a good/grand purpose. This should also lead you to this whole thing on free will—If God has planned something from AND before the beginning AND knows the end already, where can free will/ free choice/free moral agency fit into this plan since by its definition “is not simply determined by physical or divine forces”

God can do all things, but he wants sons and daughters that eventually will be equal to him. Can you see the dilemma God has put himself in for the love to have a family, for created creature can never be his equals, so he has given us free will because we must have an active and decisive part in his doing. it is his doing but we must be willing partners.


The Son of God knows good and evil but he can only do good, in contrast man also knows good and evil but he can only intent to do evil.
Thus far the autonomy of man is unquestionable

Ask yourself why is it that the Son of God can only do good. If you find a reason and believe me its in the Word then you have a cause/reason/circumstances or any other word you can think of and you’d see that even Jesus’s will was not free or autonomy (independence/freedom) from the Father. (Even if you wrongly try to look at it through the fabled trinity)

If I make a contract I am bound by it until it is fulfilled after that I am fee again.

See only the Father (not Jesus) could have what we suppose as free will, but even He had set “boundaries” on Himself to where He chose to be good over evil. Once He set those boundaries on Himself, He no longer has a freewill. See He set a cause/a circumstance/”a law” in place that will always influence His own will so He can never ever freely chose to something other than good. Do you get it? There is a law, a circumstance, a law set in place that will always influence His will so His will is never free. Every choice chosen after that cause/law/circumstance is never freely chosen. So even God the Father doesn’t have what we suppose anymore. So when He created Jesus, Jesus was influenced by His Fathers will and had to learn (that’s right learn) obedience which makes Jesus’s will not free either because since He is to represent the Father, He (Jesus) has to do what His Father always tell Him. This is not just me talking I can back all this up with scriptures.

That is not new, marriage is the same, we freely and consciously get married knowing that after that we are no longer free. Love made me do it, Is that bad?

Oh but if one believes in this trinity garbage youll never see what I just said.

I do not see the connection!

 

[AK4]

Quote freespirit
Yes faith and knowledge is the vehicle, our attitude and acts is the driving power, but the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ is to have his sacrificial love in us, this kind of love when has become sacrificial cannot increase any further for it is Christ like.

I don’t know if I completely agree with that because it says “OFHis kingdom there shall be no end” so I think that goes with Love too. Besides we really probably don’t know just how deep His sacrifice truly is.

You know I did think about this and I do find the notion troubling, because it puts all good and all evil on God shoulders, but my heart knows that God is holy and holiness is the opposite to evil. so please explain how do you reconcile the two.
By the way I thank God for all the knowledge and the increases even for the discipline that cames from the most unexpected quoter's. But I do not thank him for the evil in the world, do you?


Its funny because I sit and I think about this stuff a lot and come to realize how deep the “strong delusion” of this world is. All the way down to some of the simpliest things we are taught while we were kids by the churches and even the world. Some of the things we were taught were “God doesn’t like ugly” and recently it just hit me this lie “that there is a battle between God and Satan, a battle between good verses evil”. Both of those are so far from the truth. (That last one hit while I was watching one of those silly history channel shows about the bible. It amazes me how much I used to believe all the garbage they spew).

Yes God is holy and only God, not man, knows how to use many forms of evil for good and yet is without sin and not evil, Himself. this is a prerogative that only God uses righteously 100% of the time.
Everything He does is for a great and beneficial purpose. What may seem like hell on earth right now really is for a great purpose and He says this in ECC 1:16 “an experience of evil God has given man to humble him” and He says it is for “rebuke and reproof and chastisement etc etc” and “(this) punishment at that time never seems pleasant but its to bring us unto perfection”(parphrased). To be able to reconcile this is to know the Plan of God. The Plan of God is simple yet complex only because all the lies in the world today make it that way for others to understand. I will try to give you a watered down version of it....

I tried to give you a watered down version but I cant because there are so many doctrines you may not have come to the truth of and it wouldnt make much sense to you. I typed up like three different things.

Edit Insert--- i will give you a better answer on this later but i will just give you what i typed

God tells us the end of His plan---- “God will be all in all”. Always Remember that, for that is His end Plan/goal. In order for this to happen, in His wisdom, He knew that mankind would have to have a knowledge of good and evil and the only way to do this is to first have an experience of evil because we know since God will be all in all that good is the end result, which in turn tells us that the bad is only temporary.

With that in mind know that the proper translation is “God IS CREATING, (not created) humanity into His image”. He has “snared (them) in an evil time” for them to gain “a knowledge of evil” so they can gain and appreciate the “knowledge of good”. This is all to “humble him” yet He “chastises and judges” (some now, the rest later) to “learn (this) obedience through suffering” “for the perfecting of the saints” (eventually all the “world will learn righteousness”. Where these saints(“saviours&#8221 will be used by God to save the rest—those “both in the heavens and earth”. God created “the serpent also known as satan or the devil (not lucifer)” and uses satan to try and tempt the heart of man. God created satan, he didnt he create himself. He was created to be the adversary (from the beginning). Satan is evil and was created by God to tempt and accuse us. Sometimes strong evils may be done or around one to test your faith. But God Himself did not do the evils but He take responsibility for it all because we are His creation and we can only do what He planned.

To reconcile the evils of this world and know that God says Himself He is the one ultimately responsible, when something horrible goes wrong I try to see and find what is/was the purpose of it. To the carnal mind it may seem horrible but when you know what is planned in the end and you can see what m

Hold on I want to make it simplier. Man thinks God thinks like a man. As if He didn’t think before starting all His creation with a plan but let them loose on there own with a gift of freewill. No He has a plan and is working to a “t” where nothing is out of place, nothing surprises Him etc etc. We say that He’s all-knowing and all powerful and full of wisdom yet His plan has failed many many times trying to make beings into image—Lucifer, the angels, man, OT Israelites, even Jesus because although He came to save the world/the lost/sinners and all have sinned yet most will be eternally exterminated or tortured because even His expressed Image being in His Son FAILED again to make beings into what He wants.



God by giving the gift of the word and reason to man made man in his image. Now man is BEING made in the likeness of God through the sacrificial love of Christ.

God also says His thoughts are not our thoughts and our wisdom is just foolishness and our reasoning is just plain wrong so in no way have we been made in His image yet, but those who have the (spiritual) mind of Christ are getting a taste of it.

Well if you make a verbal contract, you are bound by that, but before you made that contract you were free not to make it. So what is your point?


You gotta start thinking higher (spiritual). Was God only good once He announced this to humanity or was it before? Before. So that throws out the verbal contract. Lets go deeper—Before the Father created Jesus did He swear to Himself that He was good or was He always good? How did the Father have a knowledge of good AND evil when it was just Him? Even though The Father had knowledge of evil also, He hated it, but knew it was necessary so that He can make beings into an image Himself. Read Proverbs 8 it is God talking in the 3rd person.

no, man can only do good with the Spirit of Christ in him. But it is up to you to ask for the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Again, who is it that even gives one the will to even ask for the gift? Do man do this on their own or is it God who works in them both to will and to do? Phil 2:3. The idol of the heart that comes from the free will doctrine is the hardest doctrine for most to let go. This is how the devil has deceived the whole world and they don’t even know it.

Yes he made us with the free faculty of reason, but man decided to disobey, the rest is history.


You’re not looking deeper. Our thoughts are not free from any cause and neither is our ability to reason. God made man basically with a desperately weak (spiritually) heart. (Jer 17:9). We are made to go against His ways and the only way we can be changed is by Him alone. No man ever decided on their own to disobey. Everyone who has ever lived, if they were back their in the garden of Eden would had done the same thing Adam and Eve did. That is a fact of scripture.

 

[AK4]

Quote freespirit
I cannot accept that God created evil, what I can accept is that evil existed from the beginning in God; but having decided to will himself as an inheritance to his children he also decided that there should be no evil in them

God has the knowledge of evil so He created it for a purpose but not that it (evil) was in Him. Look at it like this—I have a knowledge to kill yet it is not in me to do those things yet if I were God and I had a plan that absolutely needed something to bring death I would create this evil or thing to kill for me, but it would be under my complete instruction and control on what it may or may not do. As God says He frames evil meaning He puts a border around it that it can only go so far. Yes that evil still came out from me and I am its creator but I am not the one who does the killing and since I created this evil thing to do what I purposed it for I am responsible

God created satan and gave him his being to be an adversary. Satan can not go beyond what God has limited him to do. God is using satan whether He realizes it or not. Satan is not free to do whatever he wants. God will undo all the mess he had satan do.


God can do all things, but he wants sons and daughters that eventually will be equal to him. Can you see the dilemma God has put himself in for the love to have a family, for created creature can never be his equals, so he has given us free will because we must have an active and decisive part in his doing. it is his doing but we must be willing partners.
Remember we have a will—the ability to chose, but its far from free of any cause, but God will bring about circumstances/causes where all will voluntarily will to love Him. No one, including God, loves something for nothing. There is a cause or circumstances or reason to love something or somebody. God loves us because we love His Son. We love the Son because He loves us and the goodness of God which bring us to repentance. There is nothing free in our choice to choose to love God or not.

If I make a contract I am bound by it until it is fulfilled after that I am fee again.

Okay so God made a contract to all to be all in all and it started with Jesus. Since no one can see or hear the Father, Jesus revealed this for Him since He is the spokesman for the Father. Can God take back His contract? No. Even if someone had a power like freewill to try to thwart what God contracted to His creation and continued to hate and reject God, will God take back that contract? Is someone’s freewill too powerful or too precious that God is willing to known as a liar because He couldn’t keep His contract? Or does He have the power to bring/cause/make/persuade/influence/inspire/force/etc this creation of His to repentance so that Gods contract doesn’t come back void? Can you see the blasphemy in this idea of free will?

That is not new, marriage is the same, we freely and consciously get married knowing that after that we are no longer free. Love made me do it, Is that bad?

There is always a reason someone gets married so that makes it not a free choice and you make an interesting and correct point--- when one truly realizes and consciously let go of this idol of the heart (the free will doctrine) in Gods temple/throne and let the rightful heir to that throne which is in the temple of God (our heart and mind) reside, they knowingly realize how unfree their will is/was and that it was God both willing and doing of His good pleasure to bring us into an everlasting unbreakable marriage—and we love Him for it. Yes it sounds like forced love but i am so thankful He forced me out of loving this world that i didnt want to give up and still trying to overcome.
I do not see the connection!

Trinitarians basically believe either Jesus is eternal or was just created at Mary or was just a thought/concept in Gods mind until Jesus was born of Mary. With these views one cannot see or understand what I wrote

 

[free spirit]

Quote freespirit

Yes faith and knowledge is the vehicle, our attitude and acts is the driving power, but the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ is to have his sacrificial love in us, this kind of love when has become sacrificial cannot increase any further for it is Christ like.

I don’t know if I completely agree with that because it says “OFHis kingdom there shall be no end” so I think that goes with Love too. Besides we really probably don’t know just how deep His sacrifice truly is.

He has given himself totally to us, he is our inheritance, you cannot get any deeper sacrifice than that.

You know I did think about this and I do find the notion troubling, because it puts all good and all evil on God shoulders, but my heart knows that God is holy and holiness is the opposite to evil. so please explain how do you reconcile the two.
By the way I thank God for all the knowledge and the increases even for the discipline that cames from the most unexpected quoter's. But I do not thank him for the evil in the world, do you?


Its funny because I sit and I think about this stuff a lot and come to realize how deep the “strong delusion” of this world is. All the way down to some of the simpliest things we are taught while we were kids by the churches and even the world. Some of the things we were taught were “God doesn’t like ugly” and recently it just hit me this lie “that there is a battle between God and Satan, a battle between good verses evil”. Both of those are so far from the truth. (That last one hit while I was watching one of those silly history channel shows about the bible. It amazes me how much I used to believe all the garbage they spew).

The battle in question is for our hearts and minds, and is taking place in our hearts and minds.

Yes God is holy and only God, not man, knows how to use many forms of evil for good and yet is without sin and not evil, Himself. this is a prerogative that only God uses righteously 100% of the time.
Everything He does is for a great and beneficial purpose. What may seem like hell on earth right now really is for a great purpose and He says this in ECC 1:16 “an experience of evil God has given man to humble him” and He says it is for “rebuke and reproof and chastisement etc etc” and “(this) punishment at that time never seems pleasant but its to bring us unto perfection”(parphrased). To be able to reconcile this is to know the Plan of God. The Plan of God is simple yet complex only because all the lies in the world today make it that way for others to understand. I will try to give you a watered down version of it....
I tried to give you a watered down version but I cant because there are so many doctrines you may not have come to the truth of and it wouldnt make much sense to you. I typed up like three different things.

I see the above as discipline, as Hebrews 12: 4 to 12, says. "all discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwords it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness."

 

[free spirit]

Quote freespirit
I cannot accept that God created evil, what I can accept is that evil existed from the beginning in God; but having decided to will himself as an inheritance to his children he also decided that there should be no evil in them

God has the knowledge of evil so He created it for a purpose but not that it (evil) was in Him. Look at it like this—I have a knowledge to kill yet it is not in me to do those things

I see your point

yet if I were God and I had a plan that absolutely needed something to bring death I would create this evil or thing to kill for me, but it would be under my complete instruction and control on what it may or may not do. As God says He frames evil meaning He puts a border around it that it can only go so far. Yes that evil still came out from me and I am its creator but I am not the one who does the killing and since I created this evil thing to do what I purposed it for I am responsible

God created satan and gave him his being to be an adversary. Satan can not go beyond what God has limited him to do. God is using satan whether He realizes it or not. Satan is not free to do whatever he wants. God will undo all the mess he had satan do.

I think God "isolated, set apart, divested himself of evil" when he created the law, because if there is no law there is no evil or anyone to accuse you. therefore if there is a law there has to be a law enforcer. But you say God created evil, that I do not accept.

God can do all things, but he wants sons and daughters that eventually will be equal to him. Can you see the dilemma God has put himself in for the love to have a family, for created creature can never be his equals, so he has given us free will because we must have an active and decisive part in his doing. it is his doing but we must be willing partners.
Remember we have a will—the ability to chose, but its far from free of any cause, but God will bring about circumstances/causes where all will voluntarily will to love Him. No one, including God, loves something for nothing. There is a cause or circumstances or reason to love something or somebody. God loves us because we love His Son. We love the Son because He loves us and the goodness of God which bring us to repentance. There is nothing free in our choice to choose to love God or not.

Yes, We are looking for the reward

If I make a contract I am bound by it until it is fulfilled after that I am fee again.

Okay so God made a contract to all to be all in all and it started with Jesus. Since no one can see or hear the Father, Jesus revealed this for Him since He is the spokesman for the Father. Can God take back His contract? No. Even if someone had a power like freewill to try to thwart what God contracted to His creation and continued to hate and reject God, will God take back that contract? Is someone’s freewill too powerful or too precious that God is willing to known as a liar because He couldn’t keep His contract? Or does He have the power to bring/cause/make/persuade/influence/inspire/force/etc this creation of His to repentance so that Gods contract doesn’t come back void? Can you see the blasphemy in this idea of free will?

I like to believe that I have the free will to choose to do good rather then evil, for if I am not in control I am not to blame for the bad that I may do. I once read in the newspaper that this believer sacrificed his son to God, in the likeness of Abrahan and Isac, but this believer actually killed his son, he claimed God made him do it, and according to you he is right, he is telling the truth; unless I missed something you said.

That is not new, marriage is the same, we freely and consciously get married knowing that after that we are no longer free. Love made me do it, Is that bad?

There is always a reason someone gets married so that makes it not a free choice and you make an interesting and correct point--- when one truly realizes and consciously let go of this idol of the heart (the free will doctrine) in Gods temple/throne and let the rightful heir to that throne which is in the temple of God (our heart and mind) reside, they knowingly realize how unfree their will is/was and that it was God both willing and doing of His good pleasure to bring us into an everlasting unbreakable marriage—and we love Him for it. Yes it sounds like forced love but i am so thankful He forced me out of loving this world that i didnt want to give up and still trying to overcome.

Yes in winter I put on winter garments because it is cold, but if I decided to freeze to death I am free to do just that. I surrendered my life to Christ when he called me, to do anything else would have been complete madness, but the faculty to do that was present in me just the same.

I do not see the connection!
Trinitarians basically believe either Jesus is eternal or was just created at Mary or was just a thought/concept in Gods mind until Jesus was born of Mary. With these views one cannot see or understand what I wrote

I believe that the gospel is Jesus' life, the trinity is an attempt to explain God's form; therefore it is not part of the gospel, but it is only human speculation.

 

[free spirit]

God tells us the end of His plan---- “God will be all in all”. Always Remember that, for that is His end Plan/goal. In order for this to happen, in His wisdom, He knew that mankind would have to have a knowledge of good and evil and the only way to do this is to first have an experience of evil because we know since God will be all in all that good is the end result, which in turn tells us that the bad is only temporary.

With that in mind know that the proper translation is “God IS CREATING, (not created) humanity into His image”. He has “snared (them) in an evil time” for them to gain “a knowledge of evil” so they can gain and appreciate the “knowledge of good”. This is all to “humble him” yet He “chastises and judges” (some now, the rest later) to “learn (this) obedience through suffering” “for the perfecting of the saints” (eventually all the “world will learn righteousness”. Where these saints(“saviours”) will be used by God to save the rest—those “both in the heavens and earth”. God created “the serpent also known as satan or the devil (not lucifer)” and uses satan to try and tempt the heart of man. God created satan, he didnt he create himself. He was created to be the adversary (from the beginning). Satan is evil and was created by God to tempt and accuse us. Sometimes strong evils may be done or around one to test your faith. But God Himself did not do the evils but He take responsibility for it all because we are His creation and we can only do what He planned.

To reconcile the evils of this world and know that God says Himself He is the one ultimately responsible, when something horrible goes wrong I try to see and find what is/was the purpose of it. To the carnal mind it may seem horrible but when you know what is planned in the end and you can see what m

Like I said above his sons an daughters he discipline for their good, so that we may share his holiness. The rest I do not know.

Hold on I want to make it simplier. Man thinks God thinks like a man. As if He didn’t think before starting all His creation with a plan but let them loose on there own with a gift of freewill. No He has a plan and is working to a “t” where nothing is out of place, nothing surprises Him etc etc. We say that He’s all-knowing and all powerful and full of wisdom yet His plan has failed many many times trying to make beings into image—Lucifer, the angels, man, OT Israelites, even Jesus because although He came to save the world/the lost/sinners and all have sinned yet most will be eternally exterminated or tortured because even His expressed Image being in His Son FAILED again to make beings into what He wants.

God is selecting and choosing his children and hears among st his creation

God by giving the gift of the word and reason to man made man in his image. Now man is BEING made in the likeness of God through the sacrificial love of Christ.

God also says His thoughts are not our thoughts and our wisdom is just foolishness and our reasoning is just plain wrong so in no way have we been made in His image yet, but those who have the (spiritual) mind of Christ are getting a taste of it.

All wisdom and knowledge is in Christ, those outside of Christ think as you say.

Well if you make a verbal contract, you are bound by that, but before you made that contract you were free not to make it. So what is your point?
You gotta start thinking higher (spiritual). Was God only good once He announced this to humanity or was it before? Before. So that throws out the verbal contract. Lets go deeper—Before the Father created Jesus did He swear to Himself that He was good or was He always good? How did the Father have a knowledge of good AND evil when it was just Him? Even though The Father had knowledge of evil also, He hated it, but knew it was necessary so that He can make beings into an image Himself. Read Proverbs 8 it is God talking in the 3rd person.

I am thinking spiritually; No, I am living spiritually because I do not need to by-set my father doings for I know that he loves me, and I have full confidence in his goodness, he cannot do evil, and he chooses his children according to the content in their hearts. He is not capricious nor unjust, for he desires everyone to came to the knowledge of the truth.

no, man can only do good with the Spirit of Christ in him. But it is up to you to ask for the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Again, who is it that even gives one the will to even ask for the gift? Do man do this on their own or is it God who works in them both to will and to do? Phil 2:3. The idol of the heart that comes from the free will doctrine is the hardest doctrine for most to let go. This is how the devil has deceived the whole world and they don’t even know it.

"Is the hardest doctrine for most to let go" but to let it go you must have free will, don't you?

Yes he made us with the free faculty of reason, but man decided to disobey, the rest is history.
You’re not looking deeper. Our thoughts are not free from any cause and neither is our ability to reason. God made man basically with a desperately weak (spiritually) heart. (Jer 17:9). We are made to go against His ways and the only way we can be changed is by Him alone. No man ever decided on their own to disobey. Everyone who has ever lived, if they were back their in the garden of Eden would had done the same thing Adam and Eve did. That is a fact of scripture.

I do not worry about it, nor do I need to know, but what I do is this, I rest in the Lord

 

[AK4]

quote=AK4;1688823]Quote freespirit
He has given himself totally to us, he is our inheritance, you cannot get any deeper sacrifice than that.

Yeah but to know how deep that sacrifice is another story

The battle in question is for our hearts and minds, and is taking place in our hearts and minds.

It’s a battle IN our heart and mind not for our heart and mind. God is not battling any one for us. We are already His---believer or unbeliever, yet all will be believers in the end. Proof of what I say---

Eze 18:4 - "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine.

So where can this battle FOR us fit with this verse?


I see the above as discipline, as Hebrews 12: 4 to 12, says. "all discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwords it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness."

Right but it is an evil that God doesn’t take pleasure in but know that it is necessary. What true loving human parent takes pleasure in disciplining/scourging their kids. But as a parent we know sometimes it is necessary and even a spanking can seem evil. Pretty much this what is said in Ecclesiastics and in Hebrews. Its not that much different with God when He uses evil.


Quote freespirit

I see your point

Im glad you are starting to see.

I think God "isolated, set apart, divested himself of evil" when he created the law, because if there is no law there is no evil or anyone to accuse you. therefore if there is a law there has to be a law enforcer. But you say God created evil, that I do not accept.

I don’t know think about it. Which was created first—the law or satan. Satan was a liar from the beginning. The law wasn’t given in the beginning was it? I cant think of any place where it says this. Thinking on this from the beginning when the earth was created Satan was there before the law because the law was given to us by Moses, thousands of years after earth was formed and there was evil before then.

I like to believe that I have the free will to choose to do good rather then evil, for if I am not in control I am not to blame for the bad that I may do.

Yes you are because thinking and believing you have this free will you WILL BE held accountable. You “freely” (no pun intended) admit that you think when you do good or an evil (a sin) all own your own and God had nothing to do with---you have placed God completely out of the picture, you are now held accountable because you feel by your “gift” of free will/choice/moral agency you were solely responsible for all your actions so God will judge you for it.

You say---“ for if I am not in control I am not to blame for the bad that I may do.” But if in your heart and mind you willing accept an evil or sin or you feel by your “free will” you done it God will judge you by your freewill. Read Romans 7 and 8 again thinking on this no free will thing again and see if what I said make sense.