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Do you understand the New Testament
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free spirit
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
free spirit
Well-Known Member
AK4 you said
We cannot be free from the law, to be free from the law means to be free from God: Because (God and the Law are one and the same) thus, when we break the law we offend God, the only way to be freed from the law we need to put on the Holy nature of Christ, then we will be one with the law and with God in Christ.
God is the law, and the law is God fulfilled in Christ.
We cannot be free from the law, to be free from the law means to be free from God: Because (God and the Law are one and the same) thus, when we break the law we offend God, the only way to be freed from the law we need to put on the Holy nature of Christ, then we will be one with the law and with God in Christ.
God is the law, and the law is God fulfilled in Christ.
Last edited:
free spirit
Well-Known Member
To AK4
AUTHORITY AND THE LAW
It is universally understood that authority and the law go hand in hand, because authority given or received to be effective has to be based on law.
We all know that from the very beginning, humanity had to obey the law of God, Adam’s life was dependent on obeying that one law, and ever since, the law occupies first place in everything. It is as if God and the law are one. The law therefore is the will of God, the scripture of PSALM – 40 – 8, is a revelation of this important truth for it says, “I delight to do thy will, O my God; thy law is within my heart.”
The apostle Paul is specific in explaining the relationship between God, the rulers of our country and the law, for he wrote in Romans 13 – 3 to 6, “For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behaviour, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God (the law) to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God (justice,) an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. Wherefore, it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God (the law) devoting themselves to this very thing”. We can confidently say then, that as much as it is humanly possible our rulers are also one with the law, and the highest office in the land is the embodiment of the law of the people he represents.
In Matthew 8 – 7 to 10, the Roman centurion recognised the power and authority of the law, for we read. “And Jesus said to him, I will come and heal him, but the centurion answered and said, Lord I am not worthy for you to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I, too, am a man under authority of the law, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, go! And he goes, and to another, come! And he comes, and to my slave, do this! And he does it. Now when Jesus heard this he marvelled, and said to those who were following. Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel”.
In the above scripture the centurion draws a parallel between the authority invested in him through the law of the Roman Empire, and the authority of the law of the heavenly Kingdom, and through his great faith he is fully assured that Jesus has only to speak the word to be instantly obeyed in the spiritual realm.
Also the chief priests were aware that Jesus had to be working by a given authority, because his teaching had irrefutable wisdom and the miracles demonstrate his authority in the spiritual realm, but the chief priests (in contrast to the centurion) regarded the authority in Jesus as an adversary to their own authority, and therefore they were at enmity with him and so they questioned him, for we read in Matthew 21 – 23 to 27, “And when Jesus had come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him as he was teaching, and said, “By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?” And Jesus answered and said to them. “I will ask you one thing too, which if you tell me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?” And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, if we say, from heaven, he will say to us, then why did you not believe him? But if we say, from men, we fear the multitude; for they all hold John to be a prophet. And answering Jesus, they said, we do not know. He also said to them. Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”
Jesus in the above scriptures points to the only two possible source of spiritual authority, which are, the religious authority that man bestows on man, and the heavenly authority that God bestows on man. We have no doubt that believers and non-believers, anywhere in this world, recognise the structure of religious authority and the ranks of its administration members. We also know that those who make a career in their faith are required to prove their knowledge of that denomination’s doctrine, and pledge for the conservation of its traditions, and accept the authority of those with higher rank. Therefore career ministers or priests, with that earthly authority, will lord their denomination faith over the flock.
In contrast the heavenly authority is a gift of the grace of God, the greater the gift of his grace, the higher the rank, but; the higher the rank, the more the disciple will be a servant, serving the flock as the Lord did, through experiencing the sufferings of Christ on behalf of the flock of God. For we read in 2nd Corinthians 1 – 5 – 6, “For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ, for if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation.”
Obviously those two authorities described above are not compatible to one another, for we read in John 5 – 44, “How can you believe, when you receive glory (authority) from one another, and you do not seek the glory (authority) that is from the one and only God?”
Nevertheless religious denominations are the ones that we all as children become familiar with, and most of us were instructed by them to live and work within the framework of its moral laws and doctrines. These moral laws and doctrines, despite their imperfection will give the believing men and women the vision, however foggy, of the kingdom of God. For we read in Galatians 3 – 24, “Therefore the law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.” Evidently, among those that faithfully observe religious doctrines, there are many God-fearing men and women just waiting to hear the good news of God’s grace, and the salvation that comes by faith in him. For we read in John 4- 38, “I sent you to reap that for which you have not laboured; others have laboured, and you have entered into their labour.”
This labour of others is seen in the work of John the Baptist, for he came to prepare a people to receive the Lord. In ACTS chapter 10 tells the story of Cornelius a devout, charitable and God fearing man, that was well prepared to receive the word, and to be baptised with the grace of the Holy Spirit. A clear example of the importance and the foundation work of the fleshly church is found in the gospel of Luke 16 – 27 to 31, “And he said, “then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house for I have five brothers that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.” But Abraham said: “They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.” But he said, “no father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead they will repent!” But he said to him: “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.”
We know that there are those who believe the word and those that minister the word in John 10 – 9, Jesus said, “I am the door; if anyone enters through me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture.” And in John 10 – 2 – 3, He said, “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out.” The above scriptures describe the believers and saved members of his body who will go in and out from his spiritual gift and find spiritual nourishment. And for those who have been called to be shepherds Jesus will open for them the hears of men to lead them out of religious denominations and will give them the authority as he did in Matthew 10 – 1, for we read: “And having summoned his twelve disciples, he gave them authority over unclean spirit, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.”
END OF PART ONE
AUTHORITY AND THE LAW
It is universally understood that authority and the law go hand in hand, because authority given or received to be effective has to be based on law.
We all know that from the very beginning, humanity had to obey the law of God, Adam’s life was dependent on obeying that one law, and ever since, the law occupies first place in everything. It is as if God and the law are one. The law therefore is the will of God, the scripture of PSALM – 40 – 8, is a revelation of this important truth for it says, “I delight to do thy will, O my God; thy law is within my heart.”
The apostle Paul is specific in explaining the relationship between God, the rulers of our country and the law, for he wrote in Romans 13 – 3 to 6, “For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behaviour, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God (the law) to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God (justice,) an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. Wherefore, it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God (the law) devoting themselves to this very thing”. We can confidently say then, that as much as it is humanly possible our rulers are also one with the law, and the highest office in the land is the embodiment of the law of the people he represents.
In Matthew 8 – 7 to 10, the Roman centurion recognised the power and authority of the law, for we read. “And Jesus said to him, I will come and heal him, but the centurion answered and said, Lord I am not worthy for you to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I, too, am a man under authority of the law, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, go! And he goes, and to another, come! And he comes, and to my slave, do this! And he does it. Now when Jesus heard this he marvelled, and said to those who were following. Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel”.
In the above scripture the centurion draws a parallel between the authority invested in him through the law of the Roman Empire, and the authority of the law of the heavenly Kingdom, and through his great faith he is fully assured that Jesus has only to speak the word to be instantly obeyed in the spiritual realm.
Also the chief priests were aware that Jesus had to be working by a given authority, because his teaching had irrefutable wisdom and the miracles demonstrate his authority in the spiritual realm, but the chief priests (in contrast to the centurion) regarded the authority in Jesus as an adversary to their own authority, and therefore they were at enmity with him and so they questioned him, for we read in Matthew 21 – 23 to 27, “And when Jesus had come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him as he was teaching, and said, “By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?” And Jesus answered and said to them. “I will ask you one thing too, which if you tell me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?” And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, if we say, from heaven, he will say to us, then why did you not believe him? But if we say, from men, we fear the multitude; for they all hold John to be a prophet. And answering Jesus, they said, we do not know. He also said to them. Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”
Jesus in the above scriptures points to the only two possible source of spiritual authority, which are, the religious authority that man bestows on man, and the heavenly authority that God bestows on man. We have no doubt that believers and non-believers, anywhere in this world, recognise the structure of religious authority and the ranks of its administration members. We also know that those who make a career in their faith are required to prove their knowledge of that denomination’s doctrine, and pledge for the conservation of its traditions, and accept the authority of those with higher rank. Therefore career ministers or priests, with that earthly authority, will lord their denomination faith over the flock.
In contrast the heavenly authority is a gift of the grace of God, the greater the gift of his grace, the higher the rank, but; the higher the rank, the more the disciple will be a servant, serving the flock as the Lord did, through experiencing the sufferings of Christ on behalf of the flock of God. For we read in 2nd Corinthians 1 – 5 – 6, “For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ, for if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation.”
Obviously those two authorities described above are not compatible to one another, for we read in John 5 – 44, “How can you believe, when you receive glory (authority) from one another, and you do not seek the glory (authority) that is from the one and only God?”
Nevertheless religious denominations are the ones that we all as children become familiar with, and most of us were instructed by them to live and work within the framework of its moral laws and doctrines. These moral laws and doctrines, despite their imperfection will give the believing men and women the vision, however foggy, of the kingdom of God. For we read in Galatians 3 – 24, “Therefore the law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.” Evidently, among those that faithfully observe religious doctrines, there are many God-fearing men and women just waiting to hear the good news of God’s grace, and the salvation that comes by faith in him. For we read in John 4- 38, “I sent you to reap that for which you have not laboured; others have laboured, and you have entered into their labour.”
This labour of others is seen in the work of John the Baptist, for he came to prepare a people to receive the Lord. In ACTS chapter 10 tells the story of Cornelius a devout, charitable and God fearing man, that was well prepared to receive the word, and to be baptised with the grace of the Holy Spirit. A clear example of the importance and the foundation work of the fleshly church is found in the gospel of Luke 16 – 27 to 31, “And he said, “then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house for I have five brothers that he may warn them, lest they also come to this place of torment.” But Abraham said: “They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.” But he said, “no father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead they will repent!” But he said to him: “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.”
We know that there are those who believe the word and those that minister the word in John 10 – 9, Jesus said, “I am the door; if anyone enters through me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture.” And in John 10 – 2 – 3, He said, “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out.” The above scriptures describe the believers and saved members of his body who will go in and out from his spiritual gift and find spiritual nourishment. And for those who have been called to be shepherds Jesus will open for them the hears of men to lead them out of religious denominations and will give them the authority as he did in Matthew 10 – 1, for we read: “And having summoned his twelve disciples, he gave them authority over unclean spirit, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.”
END OF PART ONE
Last edited:
free spirit
Well-Known Member
TO AK4
AUTHORITY AND THE LAW
PART TWO
The spirit realm, like the realm of the flesh, has laws, therefore where there is law there will also be lawbreakers, like the fallen angels, and those self-appointed men who have arbitrarily and pretentiously taken the authority of the Kingdom of God, but were never appointed by the authority giver. Jude 1 – 8 to 16, points them out, and 2nd Peter 2 – 9 to 22, confirms this very point, also Jesus is not silent on the matter for he said in Matthew 7 – 22 – 23, “Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.”
Jesus never denied what they did; he just said they acted outside of the Kingdom’s law. However, there is a specific authority that the Lord has invested in his chosen disciples, which sets them apart as shepherds. In John 20 – 23, Jesus spells it out to them for he said, “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” Together with the authority to perform miracles, he also has gives his disciples the compelling and irresistible peacemaking authority to forgive sins, for we read in Matthew 9 – 5 – 6, “For which is easier, to say, your sins are forgiven; or to say, rise and walk? But in order that you may know that the son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” Then he said to the paralytic: “Rise, your sins are forgiven, take up your bed, and go home.” And he rose, and went home. And when the multitudes saw this, they were filled with awe, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.”
The wisdom of the world also dictates that authority is only given when one has received the training necessary to enable that pupil to discharge that authority lawfully. Likewise it is in the spiritual realm, for the disciples will have to have the training to work and speak lawfully in the name of their Lord, before they are sent out. And as they are trained the disciple will know that his authority is one with the Lord, because we read in Galatians 1 – 15 – 16, “But when he who had set me apart, even from my mother’s womb, and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his son in me, that I might preach him.”
In Luke 6 – 39 – 40, Jesus emphasised the importance of training, saying; “A blind man cannot guide a blind man can he? Will they not both fall into a pit? A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.” And if we read to the end of the above chapter six, we realise that Jesus is pointing out the pitfalls that those men, which have not been trained would encounter.
To speak in the name of the Lord, is to speak on behalf of the Lord, it is very serious indeed if we do not have that authority.
It is like a police officer that asks you to do something in the name of the law, he is not doing or saying that on his own personal authority, but he is acting and speaking on behalf of the law, which has been lawfully invested in him and his authority therefore is irresistible. But if that authority has not been lawfully invested in him, he, the self appointed policeman is working outside of the law.
Amongst the people of God there is also a diversity of ministry and authority, for we read in Ephesians 4 – 11, And he gave some as Apostles, and some as Prophets, and some as Evangelists, and some as Pastors and Teachers. Those five ministries have the office of preaching and instructing the congregation, but the manifestation of the power and authority of the spirit, working signs and wonders and miracles, will vary with each minister according to his authority, but in all situations the Holy Spirit will bear witness to them and to others that they are one with the Lord.
However, even as the law abiding citizens of this world have some authority over law-breakers, it is also true that all the faithful believers have some authority in God’s kingdom, that authority is manifested in a group, for Jesus said in the gospel of Matthew 18 – 19 – 20, “Again I say to you, that if two believers agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by my father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”
In the gospel of John 17 – 13 to 26, Jesus prays to the father regarding the future of his disciples, and for those who would come after them, the prayer is very profound and intimate, and we can believe and be reassured that things are just as they have been written, because Jesus’ prayers are always granted by the father in the fullness of his request. “But now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my authority made full in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world will hate them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I do not ask thee to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in me through their word; that they may all be one with the word; even as thou, father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us; that the world may believe that thou didst send me. And the glory (authority) which thou hast given me I have given to them; that they may be one, (with the law) just as we are one; I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that thou didst send me, and didst love them, even as thou didst love me. Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am, in order that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me; for thou didst love me before the foundation of the world. O righteous father, although the world has not known thee, yet I have known thee; and these have known that thou didst sent me; and I have made thy name (law) known to them, and will make it known; that the (law of) love wherewith thou didst love me may be in them, and I in them”.
We have to be one with his word, (or law of love) to be truly one with the Lord, for he will give the authority of the kingdom only to those that have been fully instructed and can be trusted to speak on his behalf. And if so, in time his love for humanity will be manifested through us, to bear witness that he has loved us, so that the world may believe that God did indeed send Jesus to save the world.
Glory to God
AUTHORITY AND THE LAW
PART TWO
The spirit realm, like the realm of the flesh, has laws, therefore where there is law there will also be lawbreakers, like the fallen angels, and those self-appointed men who have arbitrarily and pretentiously taken the authority of the Kingdom of God, but were never appointed by the authority giver. Jude 1 – 8 to 16, points them out, and 2nd Peter 2 – 9 to 22, confirms this very point, also Jesus is not silent on the matter for he said in Matthew 7 – 22 – 23, “Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.”
Jesus never denied what they did; he just said they acted outside of the Kingdom’s law. However, there is a specific authority that the Lord has invested in his chosen disciples, which sets them apart as shepherds. In John 20 – 23, Jesus spells it out to them for he said, “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” Together with the authority to perform miracles, he also has gives his disciples the compelling and irresistible peacemaking authority to forgive sins, for we read in Matthew 9 – 5 – 6, “For which is easier, to say, your sins are forgiven; or to say, rise and walk? But in order that you may know that the son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” Then he said to the paralytic: “Rise, your sins are forgiven, take up your bed, and go home.” And he rose, and went home. And when the multitudes saw this, they were filled with awe, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.”
The wisdom of the world also dictates that authority is only given when one has received the training necessary to enable that pupil to discharge that authority lawfully. Likewise it is in the spiritual realm, for the disciples will have to have the training to work and speak lawfully in the name of their Lord, before they are sent out. And as they are trained the disciple will know that his authority is one with the Lord, because we read in Galatians 1 – 15 – 16, “But when he who had set me apart, even from my mother’s womb, and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his son in me, that I might preach him.”
In Luke 6 – 39 – 40, Jesus emphasised the importance of training, saying; “A blind man cannot guide a blind man can he? Will they not both fall into a pit? A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.” And if we read to the end of the above chapter six, we realise that Jesus is pointing out the pitfalls that those men, which have not been trained would encounter.
To speak in the name of the Lord, is to speak on behalf of the Lord, it is very serious indeed if we do not have that authority.
It is like a police officer that asks you to do something in the name of the law, he is not doing or saying that on his own personal authority, but he is acting and speaking on behalf of the law, which has been lawfully invested in him and his authority therefore is irresistible. But if that authority has not been lawfully invested in him, he, the self appointed policeman is working outside of the law.
Amongst the people of God there is also a diversity of ministry and authority, for we read in Ephesians 4 – 11, And he gave some as Apostles, and some as Prophets, and some as Evangelists, and some as Pastors and Teachers. Those five ministries have the office of preaching and instructing the congregation, but the manifestation of the power and authority of the spirit, working signs and wonders and miracles, will vary with each minister according to his authority, but in all situations the Holy Spirit will bear witness to them and to others that they are one with the Lord.
However, even as the law abiding citizens of this world have some authority over law-breakers, it is also true that all the faithful believers have some authority in God’s kingdom, that authority is manifested in a group, for Jesus said in the gospel of Matthew 18 – 19 – 20, “Again I say to you, that if two believers agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by my father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”
In the gospel of John 17 – 13 to 26, Jesus prays to the father regarding the future of his disciples, and for those who would come after them, the prayer is very profound and intimate, and we can believe and be reassured that things are just as they have been written, because Jesus’ prayers are always granted by the father in the fullness of his request. “But now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my authority made full in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world will hate them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I do not ask thee to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in me through their word; that they may all be one with the word; even as thou, father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us; that the world may believe that thou didst send me. And the glory (authority) which thou hast given me I have given to them; that they may be one, (with the law) just as we are one; I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that thou didst send me, and didst love them, even as thou didst love me. Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am, in order that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me; for thou didst love me before the foundation of the world. O righteous father, although the world has not known thee, yet I have known thee; and these have known that thou didst sent me; and I have made thy name (law) known to them, and will make it known; that the (law of) love wherewith thou didst love me may be in them, and I in them”.
We have to be one with his word, (or law of love) to be truly one with the Lord, for he will give the authority of the kingdom only to those that have been fully instructed and can be trusted to speak on his behalf. And if so, in time his love for humanity will be manifested through us, to bear witness that he has loved us, so that the world may believe that God did indeed send Jesus to save the world.
Glory to God
Last edited:
AK4
Well-Known Member
First off you got to understand you really cant make the wrong choice. You will make the choice no doubt, but like I said before you will make the choice that God has predetermined you would make. This takes spiritual wisdom and understanding of the Sovereignty of God.This is where you can see the myth of freewill destroyed. And our best analogy in His Word is the whole book of Job. Yes, yes you can blame God. God knows Hes responsible. He says this throughout the whole bible. He knows what Hes doing. Hes doing, not what man choosing first and then He reacts. Just like Job, you can blame but don’t blame Him with wrong doing or foolishness or something as if He (God) doesn’t know what Hes doing. Take a look at all these translations and meditate on this and this freewill thing
New International Version
In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
New American Standard Bible
Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Through all this Job did not sin or blame God for doing anything wrong.
KingJamesBible
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
AmericanKingJamesVersion
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
AmericanStandardVersion
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
BibleinBasicEnglish
In all this Job did no sin, and did not say that God's acts were foolish.
Douay-RheiMSBible
In all these things Job sinned not by his lips, nor spoke he any foolish thing against God.
DarbyBibleTranslation
In all this Job sinned not, nor ascribed anything unseemly to God.
EnglishRevisedVersion
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God with foolishness.
Webster'sBibleTranslation
In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
WorldEnglishBible
In all this, Job did not sin, nor charge God with wrongdoing.
Young'sLiteralTranslation
In all this Job hath not sinned, nor given folly to God.
This was said after satan destroyed everything he had and his family. Its as if God wants you to at least acknowledge Him in everything. The Good and the bad. Notice the verse before we are told that Job didn’t sin by blaming God
21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
And whats all those verses I quoted to you before say—“All is of God”. Yes you can blame God because IT IS God “working in you and everyone” and “to will and to do”. Just don’t be foolish and blame Him for wrong doing. Can man judge his Creator or as Job said “Who will (can) say to him, "What are you doing? (9:12).
It really takes His spirit to understand this and break through the strong delusion of freewill. Yes you and I and everyone has a choice but seriously think on this—can anyone choose something other than what God planned?
If God told you today that tomorrow at 2pm exactly you will eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, when 2pm comes the next day and there is a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and your favorite sandwich (lets just say its bologna and cheese) on the table. Now if God already predetermined that you will eat the PB sandwich, do you think your will/your ability to choose/your freewill can thwart/overpower what God has said will be done? And remember before you answer
Isa 55:11 - So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
You will choose alright, but you will only choose what God has predetermined, hence no freewill. You will feel as if you chose/willed this on your own but in actuality it was God who worked in you to will and to do/eat this PB sandwich. Therefore you have a will, but its not free from God.
Okay you may say its only with one person or only His few that He is saving that this is how it works. But no its in everyone. Example—virtually everyone on earth is trying to will world peace, but Jesus said “as in the days of Noah so will it be when He returns”. We know how it was then in Noahs day and we know how far we are from world peace. All the wills of everyone in the world today cannot budge what God has predetermined. The world says “we will/want/chose world peace and God says not till I return. In the battle of wills who do you think wins?
I could keep going on and on like when you say “In other words I have a choice, so I need to know which one is the will of God, so that I may do it”. Can you blame God if you choose the wrong thing? Yes. Why? Because
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
To even be able to chose to do the right thing God first has to give the person the ability to do this. They don’t get this power by themselves. So who responsible? God. If God is the one who is responsible, then yes He is the blame. Now we, mere men, who most don’t know what God is doing (that’s why it’s a mystery to most, a secret, and their trapped in the strong delusion), can not say to Him that since He didn’t give someone the power to be able to choose right that God is evil for doing this or wrong for doing this or that He doesn’t know what He is doing. When you don’t know His Plan, one foolishly JUDGES his CREATOR and blasphemes Him.
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AK4
Well-Known Member
But as far as the high priest was concerned that line of thinking was his, because it protected his fleshly interests. I do not understand why you cannot see that your way of thinking makes God play poker or chess against himself, it would drive me insane.
Yes that the delusion of freewill. You, me, the high priest, everyone will “feel” as if it is our line of thinking, like we choose without any influence from anything. That’s the beauty of it. That God made it that we will think and feel as if He is off in some far away place, yet all the whole time Hes been right there in front of our face and to make even more beautiful—Hes been in us, working in us, through us the whole time yet most don’t even know. But what does He say about those who search out some of the Depths of God:
Pr 25:2 - It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.
Now you are not understanding because of what we always been taught about freewill. How can God be playing chess or poker with Himself if it is as He says countless times in His Word “Everything is done after the COUNSEL OF MY OWN WILL”. Who is He playing with? If only you could see how much more the scriptures will open up to you once the freewill myth is shown to you.
"through him the will of the Lord shall prosper." If God was the only player why did he needed Jesus to prosper his will?
See this is why it is important to unlearn some of the doctrines that are out there, in this case the trinity and the one that goes with it that says Jesus was only a concept or idea in the mind of God until He appeared on earth. You did at one point make me consider how important are some of these things I been telling you because as you said one doesn’t have to know all these things to be to know and mimic the character of Jesus, but not unlearning what the world has taught about Him one cant know who the Father is or who Jesus is and what was Jesus’ purpose/mission and in actuality know who it is they are worshipping.
God the Father is not the only player. He did everything through Jesus---“the only begotten God (Grk- theos, John 1:18)”. Since Jesus can do everything that His Father can do, that makes Him God. Because God the Father is invisible, can not be seen or heard. Jesus, the logos, the spokesman, the Antipas---the one in place of another, can be seen and heard. So the Father needed Jesus to reveal Him. The same way Eve came out of Adam, Jesus came out of from the Father.
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is {but} one God, the Father, from whom are all things (including Jesus) and we {exist} for (in) Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we {exist} through Him.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
I understand the difficulty of trying to distinguish the difference the Father and Jesus because of what the trinity doctrine teaches. It’s a hard thing to unlearn. When reading something on Jesus or God in the scriptures if you stick with this major scripture that “no man has seen or heard God (the Father) at anytime” you can overcome this trinity doctrine and start to see who the Father and who Jesus is why Jesus is called God.
Yes, it stand to reason, that only after death the judgement can be final, because only then we can no longer sin
Or the inhabitant of the world will be shown what they should have done.
Okay so if they are shown what they should have done, whats next? Do God show them the truth and then throw them into hell for eternity (or if you are a Jehovah witness annihilated forever)? This makes Him to them a “little too late god”. Or is it the other way that God shows them the truth and they learn what it is to be righteous and then they are saved? If it is the second option then the first death (“it is appointed once for men to die”
“judgment” was not final.
Yes that the delusion of freewill. You, me, the high priest, everyone will “feel” as if it is our line of thinking, like we choose without any influence from anything. That’s the beauty of it. That God made it that we will think and feel as if He is off in some far away place, yet all the whole time Hes been right there in front of our face and to make even more beautiful—Hes been in us, working in us, through us the whole time yet most don’t even know. But what does He say about those who search out some of the Depths of God:
Pr 25:2 - It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.
Now you are not understanding because of what we always been taught about freewill. How can God be playing chess or poker with Himself if it is as He says countless times in His Word “Everything is done after the COUNSEL OF MY OWN WILL”. Who is He playing with? If only you could see how much more the scriptures will open up to you once the freewill myth is shown to you.
"through him the will of the Lord shall prosper." If God was the only player why did he needed Jesus to prosper his will?
See this is why it is important to unlearn some of the doctrines that are out there, in this case the trinity and the one that goes with it that says Jesus was only a concept or idea in the mind of God until He appeared on earth. You did at one point make me consider how important are some of these things I been telling you because as you said one doesn’t have to know all these things to be to know and mimic the character of Jesus, but not unlearning what the world has taught about Him one cant know who the Father is or who Jesus is and what was Jesus’ purpose/mission and in actuality know who it is they are worshipping.
God the Father is not the only player. He did everything through Jesus---“the only begotten God (Grk- theos, John 1:18)”. Since Jesus can do everything that His Father can do, that makes Him God. Because God the Father is invisible, can not be seen or heard. Jesus, the logos, the spokesman, the Antipas---the one in place of another, can be seen and heard. So the Father needed Jesus to reveal Him. The same way Eve came out of Adam, Jesus came out of from the Father.
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is {but} one God, the Father, from whom are all things (including Jesus) and we {exist} for (in) Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we {exist} through Him.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
I understand the difficulty of trying to distinguish the difference the Father and Jesus because of what the trinity doctrine teaches. It’s a hard thing to unlearn. When reading something on Jesus or God in the scriptures if you stick with this major scripture that “no man has seen or heard God (the Father) at anytime” you can overcome this trinity doctrine and start to see who the Father and who Jesus is why Jesus is called God.
Yes, it stand to reason, that only after death the judgement can be final, because only then we can no longer sin
Or the inhabitant of the world will be shown what they should have done.
Okay so if they are shown what they should have done, whats next? Do God show them the truth and then throw them into hell for eternity (or if you are a Jehovah witness annihilated forever)? This makes Him to them a “little too late god”. Or is it the other way that God shows them the truth and they learn what it is to be righteous and then they are saved? If it is the second option then the first death (“it is appointed once for men to die”
“judgment” was not final.free spirit
Well-Known Member
Yes everything come from God, I said everything no exception I know this in my heart: with no reservation, no Trinity or free will doctrine, I do not even know that there was a free will doctrine. Nevertheless I do not see it the way you explain God's involvement. So have an open mind as I attempt to explain to you my understanding of this very important point.
On this earth we live our lives under the laws of our respective countries, these laws are just, and let us say holy, they control our daily lives influencing us in all that we do, these laws are there for my protection, they are there for my prosperity, they are there for my peace of mind, I am free to will and to do within that law, the law is my benevolent God. And I worship them and give thanks for them been there, because I am A law abiding citizen.
Now let say that I break the law, in this instant the same benevolent law, the very one that was there for my protection became my enemy, my persecutor, my executioner. So I ask you, can I blame the law for turning against me, can i blame the law for separating good and evil, can i blame the law for been there in the first place, for if there was no law I could not break the law.
So the law is my benevolent God if I live my life within its boundaries, the same law will became my executioner if I live my life outside its boundaries, so the Law is deeply involved in the good and bad that is in my life, and so it is God.
Now we know that we have a choice to make: we have the choice to live within the boundaries of the law, or outside the boundaries of the law; is the Law influencing me? Yes it is influencing me in a very big way, because I know the dire consequences of breaking the law, that knowledge helps me to keep the law, it is like "The fear of the Lord (law) is the beginning of wisdom"
Therefore the law is not to be blamed for the evil that is in the world nor is God, for they both love me. who is to blame is me, for my evil willful actions has turned the benevolent law against me. The enforcers of the law work for the very government that makes the law, but in this case we do not blame the enforcers nor the government when a law breaker is executed, so why we should blame God.
the LORD (LAW) gave, and the LORD (LAW) hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD (LAW).
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AK4
Well-Known Member
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
AK4
My last post was a metaphor I know that our law is far from perfect.
But all laws are spiritual and God is spirit he cannot be seen. Furthermore God's law was spoken by Jesus, it is the word of God and it will not go back to God empty.
Luke 23:39 to 43, "And one of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at him, saying, are you not the Christ? save yourself and us! But the other answered, and rebuking him said, do you not even fear god, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong. And he was saying, Jesus remember me when you come in your kingdom! And he said to him, truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise."
See even a criminal does not blame the law, but he said it is just.
Job was a righteous man and the law of God prospered him, God then took away the fence around him to test him.
We in turn are tested for a time as 1 Peter 5:8 - 9, write, "Be of sober spirit be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world."
In a strange way you are correct because; The law is the will of God, the word of God holds the universe together, creation on this earth are reproducing after themselves because they were told to do that. God is active because his law or word is what is giving us life. He has given us a choice to eat the forbidden fruit or not to eat. I do not blame God for any evil in the world, but I blame him for the good that is in the world and I give thanks to him that loves me.
AK4 I have noticed that your thinking dwells in the Old Testament, if that is the case you will not be up to speed, for the life (gospel) of Christ is laid bear in the NT. Hebrews 8:13, we read "When he said, a new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."
Isa 26:9 - For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
John 12:31; "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out."
My last post was a metaphor I know that our law is far from perfect.
But all laws are spiritual and God is spirit he cannot be seen. Furthermore God's law was spoken by Jesus, it is the word of God and it will not go back to God empty.
Luke 23:39 to 43, "And one of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at him, saying, are you not the Christ? save yourself and us! But the other answered, and rebuking him said, do you not even fear god, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong. And he was saying, Jesus remember me when you come in your kingdom! And he said to him, truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise."
See even a criminal does not blame the law, but he said it is just.
Job was a righteous man and the law of God prospered him, God then took away the fence around him to test him.
We in turn are tested for a time as 1 Peter 5:8 - 9, write, "Be of sober spirit be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world."
In a strange way you are correct because; The law is the will of God, the word of God holds the universe together, creation on this earth are reproducing after themselves because they were told to do that. God is active because his law or word is what is giving us life. He has given us a choice to eat the forbidden fruit or not to eat. I do not blame God for any evil in the world, but I blame him for the good that is in the world and I give thanks to him that loves me.
AK4 I have noticed that your thinking dwells in the Old Testament, if that is the case you will not be up to speed, for the life (gospel) of Christ is laid bear in the NT. Hebrews 8:13, we read "When he said, a new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."
Isa 26:9 - For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
John 12:31; "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out."
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
AK4
Most if not all of the OT. scriptures have been fulfilled
Isa 26:9 - For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
With the introduction of the new covenant God promise to put his law in the heart of men in order for him to know God, or learn righteousness for We read in Hebrews 8: 7 to 12, "for if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them he says, "behold, days are coming, says the lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when i took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. after those days, says the Lord: I will put my LAWS into their minds, and I will write them upon their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. and they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, And everyone his brother, saying, know the Lord, for all shall know me from the least to the greatest of them. for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
So, if you know the law, you have learned righteousness, but it is up to us to obey or disobey the law (or God in us) who's intention is to lead us to Christ) Jesus sayest every one that the father (or the law) gives me will come to me.
And Abraham said: “They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.” But he said, “no father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead they will repent!” But he said to him: “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.”
As you can see the Law (or the father) is who leads us to Christ.
God wishes for no one to perish, nevertheless 2 Peter 3:6 - 7, is clear for he says "Through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But the present heavens and earth by his WORD are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly (or lawless) men."
So what do you think "destruction of ungodly men" mean; Are they destruct for a period of time, or are they destruct for eternity, on that day that eternity starts for mankind?
I do not despise the OT but I personally prefer to believe and dwell in the up to date, simple and clear message of the NT.
Most if not all of the OT. scriptures have been fulfilled
Isa 26:9 - For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
With the introduction of the new covenant God promise to put his law in the heart of men in order for him to know God, or learn righteousness for We read in Hebrews 8: 7 to 12, "for if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them he says, "behold, days are coming, says the lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when i took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. after those days, says the Lord: I will put my LAWS into their minds, and I will write them upon their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. and they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, And everyone his brother, saying, know the Lord, for all shall know me from the least to the greatest of them. for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
So, if you know the law, you have learned righteousness, but it is up to us to obey or disobey the law (or God in us) who's intention is to lead us to Christ) Jesus sayest every one that the father (or the law) gives me will come to me.
And Abraham said: “They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.” But he said, “no father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead they will repent!” But he said to him: “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.”
As you can see the Law (or the father) is who leads us to Christ.
God wishes for no one to perish, nevertheless 2 Peter 3:6 - 7, is clear for he says "Through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But the present heavens and earth by his WORD are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly (or lawless) men."
So what do you think "destruction of ungodly men" mean; Are they destruct for a period of time, or are they destruct for eternity, on that day that eternity starts for mankind?
I do not despise the OT but I personally prefer to believe and dwell in the up to date, simple and clear message of the NT.
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pippa_wonders
New Member
It does actually say in the Bible, 1 John 1, I think, that we don't need anyone to teach us because the Holy Spirit will teach us all things we need to know. So what is so unbelievable about that poster saying he understands the New Testament?
free spirit
Well-Known Member
In the Gospel of John 14:26 we read, "But the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."
And in 1 John 2:27, we read, "And as for you, the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as his anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in him."
The question is this, is what you have been thought from the Holy Spirit, or is it from your fleshly mind? we know that the Holy Spirit teaches everyone the same thing, so why there are so many Christian believes? Obviously they do not have the anointing, so they have to be converted by holy reason.
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AK4
Well-Known Member
If you really sit down and think about it, its silly for anyone to go out and try to teach anyone about the Word. Why?
1Co 1:21 - For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
It is the foolishness of anyone (this included Paul in his time) to preach because when God is ready for one to understand then and only then will they understand. Not by thier own power or will can they understand anytime sooner.
AK4
Well-Known Member
quote freespirit
See even a criminal does not blame the law, but he said it is just.
I guess we need to get to the heart of the matter. We can say blame as good thing or a bad thing—depends how one wants to view it themselves. Heres the definition
Main Entry: 1blame
1: to find fault with :censure <the right to praise or blame a literary work>
2 a: to hold responsible <they blame me for everything> b: to place responsibility for <blames it on me>
Its interesting that in Job you can see how both of these definitions for blame is being addressed. It says in Job 21 He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return there; the Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." 22 In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrongdoing.
In verse 21 it is showing who Job is holding responsible for everything “the Lord gave, the Lord taketh”. This is directly what the second definition says---to hold responsible. Job holds God responsible for it all. Then in verse 22 “charge (blame) God with wrongdoing”, Job didn’t find fault which is what the first definition says. So looking at the criminal, can he hold God responsible for creating the law? Yes he can. Can he then say he finds fault with Gods law because he is being punished for breaking it? No. The criminal knows he is held accountable for his actions because he broke the law. Same as us, we are held accountable for our thoughts and actions, but God is responsible for creating us the way we are, placing us in a world He calls “an evil time” “an evil net” “an evil snare” “an experience of evil” and lets not forget “the creature (that’s mankind) was made (God made us) subject to vanity (grk: what is devoid of truth and appropriateness perverseness, depravity frailty, want of vigour ), Not willingly, (notice, no one in their right mind wants to be in this time of evil, untruth, perversion etc etc. In otherwords God made us this way knowing[remember Hes all knowing—knowing the end from the beginning] that we wouldn’t want it to be this way) but by reason of Him (“after the counsel of My own will” who subjected the same in hope”. God furthers His responsibility by “no one can know the Father except through Me (Jesus)” and “no one can come to the Son except by the Father” and to concrete it we are told that faith is given to us by Him and not of ourselves. So who is responsible for all things or who can be “blamed” for all things? God. But its foolish to blame Him as if we know more than Him or that we are more just than Him.
Isa 45:9 - "Woe to {the one} who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making {say,} 'He has no hands'
Rom9:20 - On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
I do not blame God for any evil in the world, but I blame him for the good that is in the world and I give thanks to him that loves me.
You know I was thinking on this for a time now and its amazing how God has been replaced by so many things in the world. When natural disasters happen its not God who brought it about its “man-made global warming” or heres the biggest replacer of them all—“mother nature”. God says He is the one that brings about all these things “I will bring this or I will bring that” and God mentions it for what it is i.e. earthquakes, hail, locosts etc etc etc. Notice who gave Paul a “thorn in the flesh” and why. Notice what Job said to his wife after she told him to curse God and die
10--But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
AK4 I have noticed that your thinking dwells in the Old Testament, if that is the case you will not be up to speed, for the life (gospel) of Christ is laid bear in the NT.
No my thinking dwells on the whole counsel of God, His entire Word. The OT is for our admonition, our example of things to learn from. The OT is huge and there is much we are to learn from it. Otherwiseif we don’t seek the counsel of God (His whole Word) we will learn it the hard way. Jesus is the Word of God. Is Jesus just the NT? Is just the NT only what represents the Logos? If the Gospel of Christ is laid bare only in the NT then we would have more than half the world confused on Him and His words. Actually that’s part of their problem because they don’t think that the OT is talking to them (Christians) “it was written for OUR admonition”. Look at how many times the Apostles referred back to the OT. The book of Revelations and Daniel are almost the same. Besides if you cant see that all the scriptures is One book and not two separate collections books you will never get the Word of God, which is Jesus.
Also something you might want to consider--- notice that it is these same OT scriptures that was “getting people to know” who and what Jesus is. There were no NT scriptures back then.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. 31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished F54 out of their sight. 32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
38 And His word you do not have remaining in you, for that One Whom He commissions, this One you are not believing.
39 "Search the scriptures, for in them you are supposing you have life eonian, and those are they which are testifying concerning Me,
40 and not willing are you to come to Me that you may have life.
Also one last thing---Have you noticed in Revelations it mentions like ten times that Jesus is, was and will be--it must be important. So in order know All of Jesus have to know the was (OT and even before that), the will be (what He has planned for the future) and the is (if He is not in you then you wont know what the "is" means)
See even a criminal does not blame the law, but he said it is just.
I guess we need to get to the heart of the matter. We can say blame as good thing or a bad thing—depends how one wants to view it themselves. Heres the definition
Main Entry: 1blame
1: to find fault with :censure <the right to praise or blame a literary work>
2 a: to hold responsible <they blame me for everything> b: to place responsibility for <blames it on me>
Its interesting that in Job you can see how both of these definitions for blame is being addressed. It says in Job 21 He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return there; the Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." 22 In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrongdoing.
In verse 21 it is showing who Job is holding responsible for everything “the Lord gave, the Lord taketh”. This is directly what the second definition says---to hold responsible. Job holds God responsible for it all. Then in verse 22 “charge (blame) God with wrongdoing”, Job didn’t find fault which is what the first definition says. So looking at the criminal, can he hold God responsible for creating the law? Yes he can. Can he then say he finds fault with Gods law because he is being punished for breaking it? No. The criminal knows he is held accountable for his actions because he broke the law. Same as us, we are held accountable for our thoughts and actions, but God is responsible for creating us the way we are, placing us in a world He calls “an evil time” “an evil net” “an evil snare” “an experience of evil” and lets not forget “the creature (that’s mankind) was made (God made us) subject to vanity (grk: what is devoid of truth and appropriateness perverseness, depravity frailty, want of vigour ), Not willingly, (notice, no one in their right mind wants to be in this time of evil, untruth, perversion etc etc. In otherwords God made us this way knowing[remember Hes all knowing—knowing the end from the beginning] that we wouldn’t want it to be this way) but by reason of Him (“after the counsel of My own will”
who subjected the same in hope”. God furthers His responsibility by “no one can know the Father except through Me (Jesus)” and “no one can come to the Son except by the Father” and to concrete it we are told that faith is given to us by Him and not of ourselves. So who is responsible for all things or who can be “blamed” for all things? God. But its foolish to blame Him as if we know more than Him or that we are more just than Him.Isa 45:9 - "Woe to {the one} who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making {say,} 'He has no hands'
Rom9:20 - On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
I do not blame God for any evil in the world, but I blame him for the good that is in the world and I give thanks to him that loves me.
You know I was thinking on this for a time now and its amazing how God has been replaced by so many things in the world. When natural disasters happen its not God who brought it about its “man-made global warming” or heres the biggest replacer of them all—“mother nature”. God says He is the one that brings about all these things “I will bring this or I will bring that” and God mentions it for what it is i.e. earthquakes, hail, locosts etc etc etc. Notice who gave Paul a “thorn in the flesh” and why. Notice what Job said to his wife after she told him to curse God and die
10--But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
AK4 I have noticed that your thinking dwells in the Old Testament, if that is the case you will not be up to speed, for the life (gospel) of Christ is laid bear in the NT.
No my thinking dwells on the whole counsel of God, His entire Word. The OT is for our admonition, our example of things to learn from. The OT is huge and there is much we are to learn from it. Otherwiseif we don’t seek the counsel of God (His whole Word) we will learn it the hard way. Jesus is the Word of God. Is Jesus just the NT? Is just the NT only what represents the Logos? If the Gospel of Christ is laid bare only in the NT then we would have more than half the world confused on Him and His words. Actually that’s part of their problem because they don’t think that the OT is talking to them (Christians) “it was written for OUR admonition”. Look at how many times the Apostles referred back to the OT. The book of Revelations and Daniel are almost the same. Besides if you cant see that all the scriptures is One book and not two separate collections books you will never get the Word of God, which is Jesus.
Also something you might want to consider--- notice that it is these same OT scriptures that was “getting people to know” who and what Jesus is. There were no NT scriptures back then.
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. 31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished F54 out of their sight. 32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
38 And His word you do not have remaining in you, for that One Whom He commissions, this One you are not believing.
39 "Search the scriptures, for in them you are supposing you have life eonian, and those are they which are testifying concerning Me,
40 and not willing are you to come to Me that you may have life.
Also one last thing---Have you noticed in Revelations it mentions like ten times that Jesus is, was and will be--it must be important. So in order know All of Jesus have to know the was (OT and even before that), the will be (what He has planned for the future) and the is (if He is not in you then you wont know what the "is" means)
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AK4
Well-Known Member
Quote freespirit
Most if not all of the OT. scriptures have been fulfilled
Isa 26:9 - For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
With the introduction of the new covenant God promise to put his law in the heart of men in order for him to know God, or learn righteousness for We read in Hebrews 8: 7 to 12,
So, if you know the law, you have learned righteousness, but it is up to us to obey or disobey the law (or God in us) who's intention is to lead us to Christ) Jesus sayest every one that the father (or the law) gives me will come to me.
You have to pay attention to all the words. Notice it says “when thy judgments are in the earth”. These judgments are not in all earth now is it? Nope. Where is His judgments right now then? “For now is time for judgment to BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD”. Right now only His judgments are on the very elect, the house of God, and only they right now are learning righteousness. To know the law just to know it is waaaay different to knowing the law and its written in your heart and mind. Think about it. The (Christian) church know the law but yet they are filled with so many unscriptural doctrines and rituals, corruption, greed and so much unrighteousness. Has this church been judged yet? Nope. Has whats been said about MYSTERY BABYLON in Revelations happened? Nope not yet.
Think about it and how much you may be demeaning God by saying that His judgments are already in the whole world, the people already know righteousness now, yet MOST of them chose/have chosen/ are still choosing not to obey. How weak does that make God and His judgments compared to the will of man? Is mans will that much stronger than God?
God wishes for no one to perish, nevertheless 2 Peter 3:6 - 7, is clear for he says "Through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But the present heavens and earth by his WORD are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly (or lawless) men."
Well right there in that verse you just showed that judgment has not come on to the whole world so that they the inhabitants will learn righteousness. But I got something else in mind right here. You say God wishes….nevertheless….
Are you saying just as the whole world is saying that God can not get ALL His own wishes/wants/desires? Think about that for second, no longer. The Almighty omnipotent, all powerful God can not and will not get His wishes because of mans freewill to choose contrariwise to what He wants. Do you see how demeaning that is to your God? Do see how blasphemous it is to turn Gods wants to a weak unattainable wish? Do you see how this lifts man above God and lowers God.
So what do you think "destruction of ungodly men" mean; Are they destruct for a period of time, or are they destruct for eternity, on that day that eternity starts for mankind?
This is the importance of knowing aion/aionis thing. We read most of these translations and its nothing but doom and gloom and really its not a gospel at all yet utter fear. I told you how much damage just this word has done to the Gospel. This word alone has probably caused more mean to hate God than any other, even more than hades (hell). If this was the only age of salvation You will have to be lucky as hell (no pun intended) to be able to get saved in this lifetime especially since Christ said only a few will make it in this age.
Yes the destruction of these ungodly men is utter destruction meaning they will basically die and be dead, that’s it, that’s all (im not demeaning it, but that’s ther “just recompense”. That is their just reward as the scriptures say. They will not be brought back to life in the next age—that is the eonian life gift given to the elect. But these people are not destroyed for ever. They must stand up (resurrect) in the Judgment and then learn righteousness. This is not a literal court room judgment scene. No it just the same thing that is happening to the elect now---they will rise and live again but during that lifetime they will be facing “the Day (Age) of the Lord” or as it says in Acts “appointed a day (age) when He will judge the world by this Man (Jesus)”, this is when the “inhabitants of the (whole) world will learn righteousness” and then it will be “in their hearts and minds”. They wont just know it, they will know it and practice it.
So yes, there is going to be a period where there is a destruction of all ungodly men and they will be utterly destroyed because they wont have any life. Eternity does not exist in the scriptures, its not at all scriptural. There are eons or ages, periods of time where only God knows the beginning and the endings. The times are indefinite to us because we are meant to know these things. They are not destroyed for eternity, nor are they punished eternally. If they were how could God become all in all?
We all will eventually be given immortality which is deathlessness or the ability to live from age to age, that’s why the proper term is eonian life/age-abiding life. Its not eternity because by definition in eternity nothing changes and once something changes it therefore can not be eternity. The “things of His Kingdom” will continue “to increase (grow)” and keep going and grow and keep going and grow and keep going.
I do not despise the OT but I personally prefer to believe and dwell in the up to date, simple and clear message of the NT.
I hope I shed some light on this for you. You are missing so much about your Saviour by taking away the “OT”.
Most if not all of the OT. scriptures have been fulfilled
Isa 26:9 - For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
With the introduction of the new covenant God promise to put his law in the heart of men in order for him to know God, or learn righteousness for We read in Hebrews 8: 7 to 12,
So, if you know the law, you have learned righteousness, but it is up to us to obey or disobey the law (or God in us) who's intention is to lead us to Christ) Jesus sayest every one that the father (or the law) gives me will come to me.
You have to pay attention to all the words. Notice it says “when thy judgments are in the earth”. These judgments are not in all earth now is it? Nope. Where is His judgments right now then? “For now is time for judgment to BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD”. Right now only His judgments are on the very elect, the house of God, and only they right now are learning righteousness. To know the law just to know it is waaaay different to knowing the law and its written in your heart and mind. Think about it. The (Christian) church know the law but yet they are filled with so many unscriptural doctrines and rituals, corruption, greed and so much unrighteousness. Has this church been judged yet? Nope. Has whats been said about MYSTERY BABYLON in Revelations happened? Nope not yet.
Think about it and how much you may be demeaning God by saying that His judgments are already in the whole world, the people already know righteousness now, yet MOST of them chose/have chosen/ are still choosing not to obey. How weak does that make God and His judgments compared to the will of man? Is mans will that much stronger than God?
God wishes for no one to perish, nevertheless 2 Peter 3:6 - 7, is clear for he says "Through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But the present heavens and earth by his WORD are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly (or lawless) men."
Well right there in that verse you just showed that judgment has not come on to the whole world so that they the inhabitants will learn righteousness. But I got something else in mind right here. You say God wishes….nevertheless….
Are you saying just as the whole world is saying that God can not get ALL His own wishes/wants/desires? Think about that for second, no longer. The Almighty omnipotent, all powerful God can not and will not get His wishes because of mans freewill to choose contrariwise to what He wants. Do you see how demeaning that is to your God? Do see how blasphemous it is to turn Gods wants to a weak unattainable wish? Do you see how this lifts man above God and lowers God.
So what do you think "destruction of ungodly men" mean; Are they destruct for a period of time, or are they destruct for eternity, on that day that eternity starts for mankind?
This is the importance of knowing aion/aionis thing. We read most of these translations and its nothing but doom and gloom and really its not a gospel at all yet utter fear. I told you how much damage just this word has done to the Gospel. This word alone has probably caused more mean to hate God than any other, even more than hades (hell). If this was the only age of salvation You will have to be lucky as hell (no pun intended) to be able to get saved in this lifetime especially since Christ said only a few will make it in this age.
Yes the destruction of these ungodly men is utter destruction meaning they will basically die and be dead, that’s it, that’s all (im not demeaning it, but that’s ther “just recompense”
. That is their just reward as the scriptures say. They will not be brought back to life in the next age—that is the eonian life gift given to the elect. But these people are not destroyed for ever. They must stand up (resurrect) in the Judgment and then learn righteousness. This is not a literal court room judgment scene. No it just the same thing that is happening to the elect now---they will rise and live again but during that lifetime they will be facing “the Day (Age) of the Lord” or as it says in Acts “appointed a day (age) when He will judge the world by this Man (Jesus)”, this is when the “inhabitants of the (whole) world will learn righteousness” and then it will be “in their hearts and minds”. They wont just know it, they will know it and practice it.So yes, there is going to be a period where there is a destruction of all ungodly men and they will be utterly destroyed because they wont have any life. Eternity does not exist in the scriptures, its not at all scriptural. There are eons or ages, periods of time where only God knows the beginning and the endings. The times are indefinite to us because we are meant to know these things. They are not destroyed for eternity, nor are they punished eternally. If they were how could God become all in all?
We all will eventually be given immortality which is deathlessness or the ability to live from age to age, that’s why the proper term is eonian life/age-abiding life. Its not eternity because by definition in eternity nothing changes and once something changes it therefore can not be eternity. The “things of His Kingdom” will continue “to increase (grow)” and keep going and grow and keep going and grow and keep going.
I do not despise the OT but I personally prefer to believe and dwell in the up to date, simple and clear message of the NT.
I hope I shed some light on this for you. You are missing so much about your Saviour by taking away the “OT”.
ayani
member
i understand a lot of it, and enjoy all of it. there are a lot of passages whose meaning i'm not clear on, and some themes that i could easily debate with other Christians.
i really don't think anyone can understand the entire Bible clearly and fully. but that doesn't mean one shouldn't read it and learn from it.
i really don't think anyone can understand the entire Bible clearly and fully. but that doesn't mean one shouldn't read it and learn from it.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
ayani
member
free spirit ~
well, i know that Jesus is the Son of God, the awaited Messiah, and the Saviour, and that whoever believes in Him and is grafted onto Him will be saved. apart from Him we can do nothing, but if we remain in Him we will live, and bear much fruit.
discipleship *does* matter, and Jesus gave us commandments because He wants us, as believers, to follow them and put them into practice. some claim that Jesus only gave commandments to show us that we can not follow them, but i disagree strongly.
i know that He was crucified on a cross for my sins (though for years this was a mystifying concept and i had no idea if it were true), and that because of what He did there, i am free to live for God, and others, and free from my old sin nature. i'm not who i was, and i have Jesus to thank for that. i know that He is risen from the dead, and alive now, and forever, and that whoever believes in Him (or calls upon Him) will be saved.
well, i know that Jesus is the Son of God, the awaited Messiah, and the Saviour, and that whoever believes in Him and is grafted onto Him will be saved. apart from Him we can do nothing, but if we remain in Him we will live, and bear much fruit.
discipleship *does* matter, and Jesus gave us commandments because He wants us, as believers, to follow them and put them into practice. some claim that Jesus only gave commandments to show us that we can not follow them, but i disagree strongly.
i know that He was crucified on a cross for my sins (though for years this was a mystifying concept and i had no idea if it were true), and that because of what He did there, i am free to live for God, and others, and free from my old sin nature. i'm not who i was, and i have Jesus to thank for that. i know that He is risen from the dead, and alive now, and forever, and that whoever believes in Him (or calls upon Him) will be saved.