Do you understand the New Testament

[AK4]

He disciplines every child whom he received, discipline can be looked upon as evil, but after it produces the fruit of righteousness, and we will be thankful for that discipline.
But what about the evil (or discipline) that is not aimed to make us perfect?

Like what do you have in mind? I cant think of one yet. I think it all is aimed to make us perfect rather we notice it at the time or not.

 

[free spirit]

AK4
You are amazing the way you defend a believe beyond our understanding.
you do not understand that what your believe is for the purposes of salvation useless, because Christ calls all to repentance. So how can "your theory" fit in his call to repentance?
it is a waste of time and resources, some mad man who believes that, is justified in saying "God has made me a killer, so I am doing the works of God, blame him for the evil that I do.
That theory has no place in the gospel of Christ, none whatsoever; it is like the JW who claim that the world is 6000 years old, and they push that theory with all strength and conviction, but what profit men has for believing that? none, absolutely none.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. (why would he besought the Lord?) 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

So you see this messenger of satan was evil (just read about all the stuff Paul had gone through, i got a list if you want it), and this messenger was given by God to keep Paul humble because of the abundance (grk: beyond measure) of revelations. Another necessary evil used by God.

He was given the "messenger" because Paul knew too much: and by knowing too much (knowledge gives arrogance) and pride and boasting rises their ugly head, which is the evil in man's heart, "or a thorn in the flesh". You must know that when we speak God's truth with confidence and fervor our arrogance come to the fore and we offend people of other faiths, and so they turn against us with verbal abuses and persecutions.
Paul could not help himself, for because of his knowledge, his message had fleshly arrogance in it, you see arrogance is evil, and he got the appropriate response from the unbelievers. Thats all.

Edit; I hope you did not think that God had put a little demon on Paul's shoulder, did you?

 

[AK4]

Freespirit
AK4
You are amazing the way you defend a believe beyond our understanding.
you do not understand that what your believe is for the purposes of salvation useless, because Christ calls all to repentance. So how can "your theory" fit in his call to repentance?

Im assuming the theory you are referring to is the myth of freewill. In actuality, it is the belief in freewill that makes salvation or a need for a God and Saviour useless, but I will try to explain it from what you stated above.

Christ calls all to repentance. Repentance of what? Sin. Yes. What is sin? By definition it’s a missing of the mark. “For all have sinned (missed the mark) and fall short of the glory of God”. Now why have all sinned or missed the mark? Was it because of Adam and Eve? No. We only inherited death from them, not sin. So we all miss the mark and need to repent so we stop missing the mark. Can this humanly happen, by ones own power? Wasn’t this asked by the disciples? Yes.

25 When the disciples heard {this,} they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" 26 And looking at {them} Jesus said to them, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Yet what does this have to do with freewill and “my theory”? Everything. Just as you and many others have stated “we (man) have the power, the ability to reason, the free choices, etc etc to save ourselves”. What did the Jesus just say above? Or is what Jesus said null and void?


So what does this have to do with repentance and salvation and freewill? Okay, we need a Saviour, God, to make the impossible possible. Jesus just said that it is impossible for man to do it,but what does Christendom and the world teach. That IT IS possible by your own freewill, reasoning, power. Do you see what I am saying? They flat out say Jesus is a liar. Will they admit that? No. Is that what they are doing? Yes.
So what does verses like Php 2:13 (for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to do for {His} good pleasure) have to do with what Jesus said was impossible for man, but possible for God, salvation, repentance and freewill? Everything. It shows that man needs to repent of thinking that he can be God and have powers like God and can do what Jesus said only God can do. Man needs to throw down and repent of this God defying, God denying freewill and reasoning concept that he can do what only God can do and accept salvation from His Saviour and God.

Man needs to repent of this particular sin (which actually branches off into many many different areas of sin just from this one belief) to be able to accept and acknowledge God and Jesus as their Saviour.

 

[AK4]

it is a waste of time and resources, some mad man who believes that, is justified in saying "God has made me a killer, so I am doing the works of God, blame him for the evil that I do. That theory has no place in the gospel of Christ, none whatsoever;

No you are twisting my words around. I said man falls victim to their own lusts and pride or is coerced by satan to do things that they ought not to do. God doesn’t make them do it, but they couldn’t have done anything other than what the circumstances presented in front of them present. God didn’t make the man a killer, but the circumstances this person experienced and his own lusts and pride and/or satan made this guy a killer. This man could say though “I couldn’t have done nothing other than what God planned beforehand” or better yet he could say “I couldn’t have done anything to thwart Gods plan or purpose”. He could also say “I guess this is what God has purposed for me because in no way could I have done anything different”. But really he should ask and learn from it “why did God create me for this for me, why was I created in the circumstances I was that I have become what I have become”. Maybe this email may help you out

You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.
Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:
"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!
God be with you,

 

[AK4]

it is like the JW who claim that the world is 6000 years old, and they push that theory with all strength and conviction, but what profit men has for believing that? none, absolutely none.

I can agree with you on that, yet it is not just JWs who believe this theory, most of Christendom does.

He was given the "messenger" because Paul knew too much: and by knowing too much (knowledge gives arrogance) and pride and boasting rises their ugly head, which is the evil in man's heart, "or a thorn in the flesh". You must know that when we speak God's truth with confidence and fervor our arrogance come to the fore and we offend people of other faiths, and so they turn against us with verbal abuses and persecutions.
Paul could not help himself, for because of his knowledge, his message had fleshly arrogance in it, you see arrogance is evil, and he got the appropriate response from the unbelievers. Thats all.

Edit; I hope you did not think that God had put a little demon on Paul's shoulder, did you?

I knew you would respond like this and I started to put this answer in the last post but here is your answer and why it is important to go to the original words for more understanding

When Paul entreated the Lord thrice that this thorn/splinter should withdraw from him, the Lord protested by saying, "Sufficient for you is My grace..." (II Cor. 12:9). It has been suggested that "grace always answers to sin." Many times that is the case, however, not always. Grace is not always used in Scripture as the "remedy for sin."

The word "grace" appears over two hundred times in the Greek Scriptures. Many times "grace" is used in a wide variety of gifts, favors, and gratuities that are not directly related to sin.

A point can also be made of the fact that this splinter was not something that could be found in Paul (such as a sin), but something that was rather "...GIVEN to me..." (Ver. 7). Paul doesn’t specifically say that it was given him by God, but then again, Who else? So since it was God who gave Paul this splinter, it is hard to believe that God would have given Paul a SIN. We don’t need to be given sins. We are constituted so spiritually weak, that we sin as easily as breathing. God hardly has to give us sins--we are sinning machines. But, Paul’s splinter was "given" to him by God.

Another telling word is found in Paul’s entreaty: "For this I entreat the Lord thrice, that it should withdraw from me.

The Greek word translated "withdraw" is aphistemi = FROM-STAND. Only a creature of intelligence and mobility can possibly "withdraw" from someone.

Withdrawal is used fifteen times in the Greek Scriptures, and always refers to people or creatures of mobility. "Withdrawal" is never used in connection with inanimate objects. Objects are normally "removed" or "taken away." They do not "withdraw." When Paul asked God to have "it" withdraw from him, the "it" was not an "object or thing,", but a "creature."

Paul’s explanation of what his splinter in the flesh really was is quite clear:
"Wherefore also, lest I should be lifted up by the transcendence of the revelations, there was given me a splinter in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, that he may be buffeting me, lest I may be lifted up"

"For this I entreat the Lord thrice, that it should withdraw from me. And He protested to me, ‘Sufficient for you is My grace, for My power in Infirmity is being perfected" (II Cor. 12:7-9).

Notice, "...there was given me a splinter in the flesh, a messenger of Satan..." The "splinter" is the "messenger." It is exactly the same as "...there is one God, the Father..." The "Father" IS the "one God." The splinter IS the messenger. But wait; there’s more.

So the "messenger" is the "splinter." What was the messenger to do to Paul? Answer: "...that he may be buffeting me..." (Ver. 8).

"Buffeting" comes from the Greek word kol aph iz’o = CHASTEN-FROM. It means: "to rap with the fist" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 43. Webster’s, buffet, (bufit) n. a blow.

"A blow." Now where have we seen that before?
II Cor. 11:23--"...in blows inordinately..."

Again, Webster’s New World Dictionary, blow n. 1 a hard hit, as with the fist 2 a sudden attack 3 a sudden calamity; shock.

Webster’s Twenteth-Century Dictionary gives us an even broader definition: buffeting, n. 1. A striking with the hands. 2. A succession of blows; strife; opposition; adversity.
So now we have a good idea of the meaning of this word "buffet"--A hard hit (especially to the face), sudden attack, sudden calamity, shock, succession of blows, strife, opposition, and adversity.Why would Paul call all this pain and calamity "a splinter"?

A splinter seems rather mild compared to the miseries that define buffet. That’s because Paul is not speaking of intensity when he speaks of a "splinter," but rather the incessantness of a splinter. The pain and aggravation is constant. It never goes away. It plagues one with every move, until the splinter is removed.

Let’s first look at the positive: Webster’s, transcend, 1. To go beyond the limits of; exceed 2. To surpass; excel. This is the positive side of [h]uperbole.

Now the negative: I like Webster’s New World Student’s Dictionary: inordinate, adj. too many or too much; excessive.

How revealing these words are. Paul’s privilege in revelations was so high (maybe almost too high) that God had to answer this exaltation with the opposite of "transcendence." Something that will humble him. Something "excessive." Something that is almost "too much." Inordinately!

God’s answer and remedy to "transcendence" is "inordinately."
Here’s proof: The word "transcendence" and the word "inordinately" are both translated from the same Greek word, "[h]uper bal’lo"!

Paul’s splinter was a messenger of Satan. His purpose was to buffet Paul. Buffeting was the category that Paul said happened to him inordinately, which answers in kind to Paul’s transcendence in revelations. So Paul lived for twenty-five years, being "hit hard," "suddenly," constantly and incessantly (like an aggravating "splinter in the flesh").

 

[free spirit]

Freespirit
AK4
You are amazing the way you defend a believe beyond our understanding.
you do not understand that what your believe is for the purposes of salvation useless, because Christ calls all to repentance. So how can "your theory" fit in his call to repentance?

Im assuming the theory you are referring to is the myth of freewill. In actuality, it is the belief in freewill that makes salvation or a need for a God and Saviour useless, but I will try to explain it from what you stated above.

Christ calls all to repentance. Repentance of what? Sin. Yes. What is sin? By definition it’s a missing of the mark. “For all have sinned (missed the mark) and fall short of the glory of God”. Now why have all sinned or missed the mark? Was it because of Adam and Eve? No. We only inherited death from them, not sin. So we all miss the mark and need to repent so we stop missing the mark. Can this humanly happen, by ones own power? Wasn’t this asked by the disciples? Yes.

25 When the disciples heard {this,} they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" 26 And looking at {them} Jesus said to them, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Yet what does this have to do with freewill and “my theory”? Everything. Just as you and many others have stated “we (man) have the power, the ability to reason, the free choices, etc etc to save ourselves”. What did the Jesus just say above? Or is what Jesus said null and void?

NO what Jesus said is never null and void, for Jesus said "With man this is impossible" or "With man by himself this is impossible" "But with God all things are possible" or "But with the company of God all things are possible"

So what does this have to do with repentance and salvation and freewill? Okay, we need a Saviour, God, to make the impossible possible. Jesus just said that it is impossible for man to do it,but what does Christendom and the world teach. That IT IS possible by your own freewill, reasoning, power. Do you see what I am saying? They flat out say Jesus is a liar. Will they admit that? No. Is that what they are doing? Yes.

I never heard any preacher say that; but they do say, you must co-operate with God by repenting.

So what does verses like Php 2:13 (for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to do for {His} good pleasure) have to do with what Jesus said was impossible for man, but possible for God, salvation, repentance and freewill? Everything. It shows that man needs to repent of thinking that he can be God and have powers like God and can do what Jesus said only God can do. Man needs to throw down and repent of this God defying, God denying freewill and reasoning concept that he can do what only God can do and accept salvation from His Saviour and God.

Man needs to repent of this particular sin (which actually branches off into many many different areas of sin just from this one belief) to be able to accept and acknowledge God and Jesus as their Saviour.

We read in Ephesians 4:29 - 30, "Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, that it may give grace to those who hear. and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
The above verses are clear, I have to behave in an holy manner, and not be disobedient to the Holy Spirit. I find that normal, and my will is asked to co-operate a little. I am not saving myself, I cannot do that, but I can be grateful by obeying him who is saving me. thank you very much.

 

[free spirit]

it is a waste of time and resources, some mad man who believes that, is justified in saying "God has made me a killer, so I am doing the works of God, blame him for the evil that I do. That theory has no place in the gospel of Christ, none whatsoever;

No you are twisting my words around. I said man falls victim to their own lusts and pride or is coerced by satan to do things that they ought not to do. God doesn’t make them do it, but they couldn’t have done anything other than what the circumstances presented in front of them present. God didn’t make the man a killer, but the circumstances this person experienced and his own lusts and pride and/or satan made this guy a killer. This man could say though “I couldn’t have done nothing other than what God planned beforehand” or better yet he could say “I couldn’t have done anything to thwart Gods plan or purpose”. He could also say “I guess this is what God has purposed for me because in no way could I have done anything different”. But really he should ask and learn from it “why did God create me for this for me, why was I created in the circumstances I was that I have become what I have become”. Maybe this email may help you out

An animal cannot willingly choose because it has no reason of the consequences of his choice. Man on the other hand knows that if he speed on the road he most probably will get a ticket.
Your last two questions are completely out of tune with the reality of humanity; You should have asked a more appropriate question like this, Why God has given me free will, what does he wants me to do.

 

[free spirit]

it is like the JW who claim that the world is 6000 years old, and they push that theory with all strength and conviction, but what profit men has for believing that? none, absolutely none.

I can agree with you on that, yet it is not just JWs who believe this theory, most of Christendom does.

He was given the "messenger" because Paul knew too much: and by knowing too much (knowledge gives arrogance) and pride and boasting rises their ugly head, which is the evil in man's heart, "or a thorn in the flesh". You must know that when we speak God's truth with confidence and fervor our arrogance come to the fore and we offend people of other faiths, and so they turn against us with verbal abuses and persecutions.
Paul could not help himself, for because of his knowledge, his message had fleshly arrogance in it, you see arrogance is evil, and he got the appropriate response from the unbelievers. Thats all.

Edit; I hope you did not think that God had put a little demon on Paul's shoulder, did you?

I knew you would respond like this and I started to put this answer in the last post but here is your answer and why it is important to go to the original words for more understanding.

Your response to this post really made me sad
AK4 You work too hard at it, let go at these books, rest in the Lord, he will give you spiritual understanding, He is alive you know! give him a go trust him.

 

[AK4]

Freespirit


NO what Jesus said is never null and void, for Jesus said "With man this is impossible" or "With man by himself this is impossible" "But with God all things are possible" or "But with the company of God all things are possible"

We are warned of adding to and taking away from Gods Word. Jesus did not say "with man by Himself" or "with the company of God". Yes, when you add these words they would support the myth of freewill. But that is not what is said here or anywhere else.



I never heard any preacher say that; but they do say, you must co-operate with God by repenting.

Does the doctrine of coming to Christ on your own sound like this? One must accept Christ by their own freewill. "If you dont choose Christ as your personal Saviour you will go to hell" preachers state over and over again "I chose Christ, then He chose me" etc etc etc. Watch the TBN network and you will see this over and over (mixed in with something of giving money to them, no doubt)

 

[AK4]

An animal cannot willingly choose because it has no reason of the consequences of his choice. Man on the other hand knows that if he speed on the road he most probably will get a ticket.
Your last two questions are completely out of tune with the reality of humanity; You should have asked a more appropriate question like this, Why God has given me free will, what does he wants me to do.

Do a word study on the word beast throughout scripture and where it refers to man. You will see how God calls us all beasts and how we are (before He gives us His spirit and one is part of the elect/few) no different than them. Yes in many ways we are above animals but in many ways (spiritually) God, not me, says we are like them.

GOD’S WORD SAYS THAT MAN IS A BEAST​

"Nevertheless man being in honor abides not [does not endure]: he is LIKE THE BEASTS that perish" and "…he is LIKE THE BEASTS that perish: (Ps. 49:12, 20).

"One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, EVIL BEASTS, slow bellies [lazy gluttons]. This witness is true" (Titus 1:12-13).

"But these, as NATURAL BRUTE BEASTS, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption" (II Pet. 2:12).

"So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as A BEAST before thee" (Psalm 73:22).

"But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, AS BRUTE BEASTS, in those things they corrupt themselves" (Jude 10).

"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves ARE BEASTS" (Ecclesiastes 3:18).
​

THE BEAST WITHIN / THE MAN OF SIN / THE SON OF PERDITION​

I showed from the Scriptures in our last installment that we only become aware of the beast when we are standing on the "sand of the sea." AFTER our spiritual house built upon spiritual sand FALLS DOWN, and WE fall down. And this is precisely why Paul tells us that the

"…day of Christ… shall not come [to US] except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST…" (II Thes. 2:1-2).
​

This "fall" by the way is not a little slip or a little stumble. It is a complete and total SPIRITUAL FALL! We all come to Christ with a simple childlike innocence. But … BUT, once we are in "the church of our choice," we start to get educated in the ways of Christendom. We learn of many rules based on the unscriptural traditions of men. We delight in many of these rules and traditions (sometimes not all of them), and before we know it, our new religion sooner or later TAKES US RIGHT BACK INTO THE WORLD that we thought we came out of.

I asked God this question "If God has given man this great gift of freewill, why has everyones "great gift", except one, failed, malfunctioned doesnt work right?" "How is it that all of mankinds freewill fail to seek God and fall short of His glory?" I asked "if this gift is so marvelous, why does God say that "none seek God" and "all have sinned"? "Why hasnt anyones save Jesus freewill worked?"

My conclusion-- If we were given freewill, then its worthless, its junk. Whats the point of having something that'll always fall short of the glory of God? My answer in what i am to do came also when God showed His truths on this freewill.

 

[AK4]

Your response to this post really made me sad[/FONT]
AK4 You work too hard at it, let go at these books, rest in the Lord, he will give you spiritual understanding, He is alive you know! give him a go trust him.

Why? I am at rest in the Lord. I have entered His rest. The work is light really, it is God in me who is doing the work. "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless i live, yet not I, but Christ in me". The "Book" is in me and i am in the "Book". I dont have to do much for most of the stuff i type. It just "comes to me". I am eternally grateful for even just the little, even though compared to the world its ALOT, of the spiritual understanding God has given me. I have complete trust in Him. He broke me down so far that He was the only one i could depend on and He has never failed me.

Freespirit i am trying to show you what God meant when He said "Come out of her my people". There are many things in this world that is a lie and to make it worse its lies mixed in with truth. Being now able to see through alot of these lies, i am able to see just how good of a deciever the Deciever is. "And God saw that everything He had made (including the serpent) and it was good". Good for the purpose of what He purposed it for. I am at rest knowing ALL is in Gods hands and He is working ALL according to the purpose of His will and not mankinds malfunctioned, always broken, never worked freewill.

Believe it or not i pray for all to see through this delusion.

 

[free spirit]

Why? I am at rest in the Lord. I have entered His rest. The work is light really, it is God in me who is doing the work. "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless i live, yet not I, but Christ in me". The "Book" is in me and i am in the "Book". I dont have to do much for most of the stuff i type. It just "comes to me". I am eternally grateful for even just the little, even though compared to the world its ALOT, of the spiritual understanding God has given me. I have complete trust in Him. He broke me down so far that He was the only one i could depend on and He has never failed me.

Freespirit i am trying to show you what God meant when He said "Come out of her my people". There are many things in this world that is a lie and to make it worse its lies mixed in with truth. Being now able to see through alot of these lies, i am able to see just how good of a deciever the Deciever is. "And God saw that everything He had made (including the serpent) and it was good". Good for the purpose of what He purposed it for. I am at rest knowing ALL is in Gods hands and He is working ALL according to the purpose of His will and not mankinds malfunctioned, always broken, never worked freewill.

Believe it or not i pray for all to see through this delusion.

"Delusion" It is something we believe, which is unreal.
The unreal demands to be explained with long letters or it will not stand, and that is what you are doing.
I cannot and will-not judge you for in your own way you have been a blessing to me.
there are many decision that we have to make in our life time, wittingly or unwittingly, but in the end all those who belong to God live and act within the will of God, for he is the lamp to our feet, the rest are in darkness, and the lusts of their heart is what is guiding them.

 

[free spirit]

AK4

This is what Jesus said about the judgment that is to come, we read in Luke 11: 30 to 32, 'For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so shall the son of Man be to this generation. The queen of the south shall rise up with the men of this generation at the judgment and condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh shall stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here."

If you care to notice that the Judgment has condemnation in it, also Jesus blame them for not repenting, obviously they willingly decided not to repent.

In Luke 12:54 to 57; we read "And he was also saying to the multitudes, When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, a shower is coming, and so it turns out. And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, it will be a hot day, and it turns out that way. You hypocrite! you know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time? AND WHY DO YOU NOT EVEN ON YOUR OWN INITIATIVE JUDGE WHAT IS RIGHT?"
The last verse written in upper case is clear for to do that you must have a free will.

In Luke 15:16 to 18, we read, "And he was longing to fill his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him. BUT WHEN HE CAME TO HIS SENSES, HE SAID HOW MANY OF MY FATHER'S HIRED MEN HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH BREAD, BUT I AM DYING HERE WITH HUNGER!
I WILL GET UP AND GO TO MY FATHER, AND WILL SAY TO HIM, FATHER, I HAVE SINNED AGAINST HEAVEN, AND IN YOUR SIGHT."

Here again when he reasoned about the situation he willfully decided what to do.

In the NT there are many instances were the decision is yours to make, "your theory" would do a lot of good if it thought how to use our God given reason with wisdom.

 

[free spirit]

AK4
Part one
EFFECTIVE WORSHIP
how MAN is in the image of Got
How we came to have a FREE WILL




We all at some time, either alone, or within an assembly have taken part in worship, but in response to a Samaritan woman, Jesus revealed the requirements for an effective worship. We read in John 4 – 20 – 26: “Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus said to her. “Woman believe me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the father. You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the father in spirit and truth; for such people the father seeks to be his worshippers. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to him, “I know that the Messiah is coming, (he who is called Christ when that one comes he will declare all things to us.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
The above scripture on the surface appears to be straightforward, but how do we do that, seeing that we are of flesh, and our perceived truth is not necessarily the truth?

Wisdom dictates that we should not venture in the realm that is beyond our grasp. First we should analyse our own spiritual makeup, for we should have an intimate knowledge of ourselves, for if we were created in the image of God, we should know which part of us is in the image of God, before we can understand what lies beyond.

In the book of Genesis 1 – 26 and 27, God laid the foundations of the character and purpose of humanity, for we read: “Then God said, Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. And God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”

So according to the above scripture we have the image of God in ourselves, but unfortunately man’s imaginative and artistic skill fashioned God to resemble himself, male and female, and some of us even elevated animals as the form to worship. Others worship some object like the sun, the moon, the earth, or nature itself. Needless to say that they all are in error, because it is not the object, or creature, or our superficial appearance or gender that bear the image of God, but it is the essence (spirit) of God in us that bear the image of God.

It isn’t difficult to identify the spirit in us that bear the image of God; because he has not been hidden in some dark place, but he is in the most forefront of our lives, if anything it is his ever-exposure that makes him invisible as it were.

For with his essence we are able to think, formulate plans and be creative, to have the power of the word means to be living souls. Just consider without this Godly essence we would be like animals, living in the limitation of instinct, and not living from the essence of unlimited freedom and intelligent reason.


So the God given ability to formulate reason with words is what makes us in the image of God, for he created all things by the power of his word, and like him we also plan and create things out of the reasoning power of our words. The ability to speak intelligent and creative words is truly what makes us living souls; therefore it is the breath of life itself. (Genesis 2 – 7.)

We all know that man was not content with the special status that God had allotted to him, because man was enticed by Satan to covet the likeness of the wisdom of God, by knowing good and evil. Genesis 3 – 5 – 6, records the advent: “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be open, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, (gratification of the body) and that it was a delight to the eyes, (gratification of the senses) and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, (gratification of the ego) she took from its fruit and ate, and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.” And Genesis 3 – 22, confirms what took place. “Then the Lord God said, behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil.”

Moving a step further towards the understanding of ourselves we must realise that the source of coordinate actions of the body and precise utterances, reside in the spirit, there is no other plausible location. Have you ever searched your inner self to find the source of your words? For if you could find it you would be staring in the face of god, with a small “g” because it would be your own face you would be looking at. Our spirit has the ability to be immensely active, continually creating thought without disturbing the body, in our dreams for example, or in our private thought, he is the tenant of the body, and his presence and activity keeps our body alive, “for the body without the spirit is dead.” Our spirit and soul is so intertwined that to separate them is only possible to God.

We cannot see the soul but we can see and hear the affect of the soul, it can be either good or bad, because it knows both. Therefore it stands to reason to conclude that we are spiritual creatures covered with a body, (the apostle Paul calls it a tent) and our thoughts and words are the evidence that our essence bears the image of God.

A loving relationship either in the flesh or in the spirit is always based on communication; for how can anyone claim to have a relationship without talking to each other, or how can anyone fellowship with those that entertain adversary thought and or, behaviour, that cause offence to one’s own character. So the exhortation recorded in the scriptures “You shall be holy, for I am holy” is an invitation to fellowship with him.

Therefore the soul has to become holy to meet and fellowship with a holy God. Ephesians 4 – 23, is very explicit with what we have to do, for we read: “And that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind.” In other words, the soul must cleanse itself from the word of inequity, which is the integral and living evil side of our soul, which uninvited floods our mind; with the covetousness of immorality, boastfulness, jealousy, greed, fear, anger, envy and ambition.

However with the guidance of the Holy Spirit abiding in us, we are now able to suppress and put to death our unclean and undisciplined thoughts. And replace them with the discipline of love: With its manifestation of joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, meekness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Wisdom also demands that we understand the complex identity of our soul, which is formed by the spirit of our conscience, and the spirit of our mind, sharing control over our will and body, but the most important part of the soul is our conscience. For it is an independent judge of all that we do or say, it is also a passive but persuasive controller of our unfolding lives. (Man or woman without a conscience unquestionably would tend to be an evil person, and unfortunately there are many in the world whom have no conscience.)

 

[free spirit]

AK4

Part two


On the other hand the spirit of our mind is a calculating self-centred personality, reacting to the world’s unfolding opportunities of possible gains, fear, and desires, often overriding the better judgement of the conscience. But through our conscience’s retrospective judgement and shame for past evil words or deeds, we learn that the spirit of our mind in its natural state is a slave of corruption, sold into bondage to sin. The apostle Paul said in Romans 7 – 15, “For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practising what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.” According to that we are sinners because in our unregenerate state we have no effective control of our will. But now with the accomplished work of redemption of our Lord, and the gift of his grace he has set our will free; therefore we are now no longer obligated to obey sin. As 1st Peter 4 – 2, also says, “So as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.”

To have our will freed from the shackles of sin is very important to God, for he sacrificed his son to redeem the freedom of our will. But only at our request he sends the spirit of his son into our heart to sanctify our conscience, and thereby setting the conscience free from condemnation for past sins. Also giving our conscience the right to change the course of our life, and to enter the consciousness of God’s truth. Hebrews 10 – 1 to 18 is explicit for it says among other things: “For having once been cleansed we would have no longer consciousness of sins.”

Our body is also fundamental to worship God, 1st Corinthians 6 – 18 to 20, is very explicit in describing the importance of our body for it says. “Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.”

At our request our body has become a vessel in which God dwells. But now it has to be made holy by the strength and determination of our new sanctified conscience, because we now are able to put to death the body’s unholy appetites, as Romans 12 – 1 – 2 says, “I urge you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable (useful) to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.” The importance of keeping our body holy is obvious, for God will not openly use a defiled vessel.

Without a doubt, if we have exercised the new freedom and power of our sanctified conscience, and grasped the importance of our body as the vessel of God, and made his mind our own, we have inadvertently already experienced the joy ofworshipping in spirit and truth. (Or consciousness of holiness)

As I said before, the above glorious cleansing of our body and soul is only possible through the gift of freedom of our will, brought about by the presence in our conscience of the Holy Spirit. Our gratitude and thanksgiving belongs to him, who is our priest, and advocate, who also patiently lead us back to our God and father. Having therefore by his grace reached sanctification, of our spirit, (conscience) of our soul, (mind) and of our body, (vessel) we can now have the living hope of fellowship and enter beyond the veil of holiness in the presence of our God and father.

The attitude of worship will express, respect, obedience, and service, all wrapped in an uncovetous loving relationship with our Heavenly Father so that we may know his will, regarding the work of service that we must zealously render on his behalf to our fellow men. Because, if we have been sanctified completely, in other words “if we are dead to sin and sin is death to us” the love that God holds for the human race has become our own, and we have become partners with his son Jesus Christ to spread among men the gospel of salvation.

Because “Truth” in God’s eyes is not only that which is contrary to falsehood, but it is also a state of existence, therefore, the day will come when only “Truth” will exist in eternity. Then we can confidently say that“Truth” is a state of unchanging holiness, the essence of God to which we by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ have become partakers.

In John 14 – 6, Jesus said, “I am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the father, but through me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the “Truth” because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because he is the eternal Word = life

It is fitting for the wisdom of God to sum it all up with this one phrase.
“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Glory to God

 

[AK4]

Quote freespirit
If you care to notice that the Judgment has condemnation in it, also Jesus blame them for not repenting, obviously they willingly decided not to repent.

Judgment and condemnation are from the same greek word. Yes they did willingly. We do have a will, an ability to make choices. I wave the banner for this. Freewill or free choices we don’t.

In Luke 12:54 to 57; we read "And he was also saying to the multitudes, When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, a shower is coming, and so it turns out. And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, it will be a hot day, and it turns out that way. You hypocrite! you know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time? AND WHY DO YOU NOT EVEN ON YOUR OWN INITIATIVE JUDGE WHAT IS RIGHT?"
The last verse written in upper case is clear for to do that you must have a free will.


Well it seems as if you got that translation from the NASB. It funny because it’s the only one that translate that verse like that “own initiative”. And it doesn’t match the greek when stated “own initiative”. All others translate it “And why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?”.

Yes we have been given an ability to reason and judge, but I know you know that God grants some with the ability to do this correctly and some not. Just look how jews reason and judge the NT. Theres one good example. But how this becomes freewill I don’t see it.

In Luke 15:16 to 18, we read, "And he was longing to fill his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him. BUT WHEN HE CAME TO HIS SENSES, HE SAID HOW MANY OF MY FATHER'S HIRED MEN HAVE MORE THAN ENOUGH BREAD, BUT I AM DYING HERE WITH HUNGER!
I WILL GET UP AND GO TO MY FATHER, AND WILL SAY TO HIM, FATHER, I HAVE SINNED AGAINST HEAVEN, AND IN YOUR SIGHT."

Here again when he reasoned about the situation he willfully decided what to do.

Do you see the circumstances God placed upon him to want and to will and to do to come back to his Father? This is a prime example of what that Php 2:13 verse is saying and how God controls everything through circumstances. Yes God MADE HIM, brought about, put him through circumstances to where he would will/choose to come back to his father. This is how God works. He doesn’t “make” you do something, He places circumstances in front of you to where you will willfully/voluntarily choose/decide/reason to do something (and that something is the only something you could have choosen). Sounds like a contradiction doesn’t it? Its not, it just takes higher spiritual understanding to see the Depths of God and His workings. In all this where is anyones will/choices, free. Where do you see in that parable that the son chose freely, with absolutely no causes or circumstances to go back to his father? You don’t, thus his will was caused to make a decision to go back to his father, thus his will, his choice, his reasoning was not free.

See you still willfully decided to do whatever, but it is “God who directs your steps” or “works in you both to will and to do”.

In the NT there are many instances were the decision is yours to make, "your theory" would do a lot of good if it thought how to use our God given reason with wisdom

Again you have to see the difference between freewill/free choice verses caused will/caused choice.

 

[AK4]

Freespirit, I want to apologize for how straight forward I am in response to this article (and others), but I just cant. Only because we are to be straight forward with the truth. It may sound as if I am being harsh or abrasive but that is not my intent. We are to “preach with sound doctrine and expose those who contradict” (Titus 1:9) and Jesus along with the rest of the Apostles were straight forward with those who contradict. I am not attacking you, I am the doctrines, whether you recognize that or not, that even I was once in line with. Again I apologize but I don’t because all I am doing is stating the truth from scriptures and the scriptures have nothing to apologize from. However I really do enjoy our conversations here.

EFFECTIVE WORSHIP
how MAN is in the image of Got
How we came to have a FREE WILL

The above scripture on the surface appears to be straightforward, but how do we do that, seeing that we are of flesh, and our perceived truth is not necessarily the truth?

Please notice what you just said here.

Wisdom dictates that we should not venture in the realm that is beyond our grasp. First we should analyse our own spiritual makeup, for we should have an intimate knowledge of ourselves, for if we were created in the image of God, we should know which part of us is in the image of God, before we can understand what lies beyond.


We are being created in His image. We are not created/done in His image.

In the book of Genesis 1 – 26 and 27, God laid the foundations of the character and purpose of humanity, for we read: “Then God said, Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. And God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”

The proper wording is “Let us BE MAKING man in our image”…”and God is creating man in His image, in the image of God He CREATES him”. This makes a big difference to what is popularly taught.


For with his essence we are able to think, formulate plans and be creative, to have the power of the word means to be living souls. Just consider without this Godly essence we would be like animals, living in the limitation of instinct, and not living from the essence of unlimited freedom and intelligent reason.



Now the scriptures I already showed you about man being called by God wild, does what you believe and say after whats underlined match the scriptures?

And what does God call our wisdom?

"Where is the wise? Where is the Scribe? Where is the disputer [debater] of this world? Has not God made foolish [Gk: ‘stupid’] the wisdom of this world?" (I Cor. 1:20).

Notice that it is not the "foolishness" of this world that God says is stupid, but rather it is the "wisdom" of this world that is stupidity to God!


So the God given ability to formulate reason with words is what makes us in the image of God, for he created all things by the power of his word, and like him we also plan and create things out of the reasoning power of our words. The ability to speak intelligent and creative words is truly what makes us living souls; therefore it is the breath of life itself. (Genesis 2 – 7.)

We all know that man was not content with the special status that God had allotted to him,

Is there a scripture that says man was not content with this “special status”? I know not one.

Therefore it stands to reason to conclude that we are spiritual creatures covered with a body, (the apostle Paul calls it a tent) and our thoughts and words are the evidence that our essence bears the image of God.


This reasoning that we are spiritual creatures goes against all scripture. What would be the purpose of the resurrection if we are spiritual creatures? What does Paul tell us? We go from mortal to immortal, corruption to incorruption, a natural body to a spiritual body. Nothing about a spiritual creature inside a mortal body.

Part two

On the other hand the spirit of our mind is a calculating self-centred personality,

Isnt this what Ive been saying about this freewill business and what this scripture is saying

"…oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God [‘as a god’] sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God [‘is a god’]" (II Thes. 2:4)?

reacting to the world’s unfolding opportunities of possible gains, fear, and desires, often overriding the better judgement of the conscience. But through our conscience’s retrospective judgement and shame for past evil words or deeds, we learn that the spirit of our mind in its natural state is a slave of corruption, sold into bondage to sin.

Yet you admit this but don’t admit the scripture and others like that say “it is an experience of EVIL GOD has given humanity”. And that God doesn’t use evil. You have to make a decision on what to believe, either contradictions or a truth. You say sold into bondage. Who sold us? Satan? Ourselves? No God. What saith the scriptures:

Ro 8:20 - For the creature was made subject to vanity (what is devoid of truth and appropriateness perverseness, depravity frailty, want of vigour)not willingly, but by reason OF HIM (who is the Him? Satan? Man? Or God Himself?) who hath subjected the same in hope (well theres your answer. The same one who subjected us to vanity is the same one who subjected us to hope. So will you answer this honestly?)

In just this one verse can you see how God is using this evil world and all the evil in it, including people, to produce perfect sons and daughters?



The apostle Paul said in Romans 7 – 15, “For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practising what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.” According to that we are sinners because in our unregenerate state we have no effective control of our will.

No we are sinners because God made us to be spiritually weak or with a“heart is desperately weak”.

But now with the accomplished work of redemption of our Lord, and the gift of his grace he has set our will free; therefore we are now no longer obligated to obey sin.

Set our will free? Even an unconverted unbeliever is not obligated to obey sin. Lets go by what you say. We were a slave to sin then we become free right? Nope because we would go from slave to sin to a slave to Christ or to a slave of righteousness. Either way our will not free. So even with your own reasoning, freewill is destroyed.

 

[AK4]

To have our will freed from the shackles of sin is very important to God, for he sacrificed his son to redeem the freedom of our will.

As shown above we are still slaves. Just one is better than the other.

But only at our request he sends the spirit of his son into our heart to sanctify our conscience,

Ah ha, I caught you. Remember I said this “Yet what does this have to do with freewill and “my theory”? Everything. Just as you and many others have stated “we (man) have the power, the ability to reason, the free choices, etc etc to save ourselves”. What did the Jesus just say above? Or is what Jesus said null and void?


So what does this have to do with repentance and salvation and freewill? Okay, we need a Saviour, God, to make the impossible possible. Jesus just said that it is impossible for man to do it,but what does Christendom and the world teach. That IT IS possible by your own freewill, reasoning, power. Do you see what I am saying? They flat out say Jesus is a liar. Will they admit that? No. Is that what they are doing? Yes.
So what does verses like Php 2:13 (for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to do for {His} good pleasure) have to do with what Jesus said was impossible for man, but possible for God, salvation, repentance and freewill? Everything. It shows that man needs to repent of thinking that he can be God and have powers like God and can do what Jesus said only God can do. Man needs to throw down and repent of this God defying, God denying freewill and reasoning concept that he can do what only God can do and accept salvation from His Saviour and God.

And you responded “I never heard any preacher say that; but they do say, you must co-operate with God by repenting”

I was taught, once you learn a spiritual truth, don’t ever let it go. And one of the spiritual truths is to catch contradictions and pay attention to all the words. Notice you said but only at our request yet the scriptures teach otherwise that it is ONLY by Gods choosing. I told you, this is exactly how Christianity is and I will quote myself again on this “They flat out say Jesus is a liar. Will they admit that? No. Is that what they are doing? Yes.


Jesus just said that it is impossible for man to do it,but what does Christendom and the world teach. That IT IS possible by your own freewill, reasoning, power. Do you see what I am saying?


and thereby setting the conscience free from condemnation for past sins. Also giving our conscience the right to change the course of our life,

What happen to “being predestinated”? Did they by themselves with now a freewill able to change what God has predestinated?

Our body is also fundamental to worship God, 1st Corinthians 6 – 18 to 20, “... Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body.”

Notice we were bought out of slavery of sin and sold into a slavery of righteousness. This may sound bad to some but not to me.

At our request our body has become a vessel in which God dwells.

God made you to want to will to do this. And all will do this voluntarily.

But now it has to be made holy by the strength and determination of our new sanctified conscience, because we now are able to put to death the body’s unholy appetites,

Do you see how God is taken out of everything with this statement and belief in freewill? Its right there plain as day. I beg you to look at that again and compare it to “for IT IS GOD who works in you TO WILL AND TO DO.

If you cant see it I will show what you said

But now [after my request that He (God) sent me the spirit of His Son] it has to be made holy by [MY] strength and determination [my power, my freewill, not God working in me to will and to do] of our new sanctified conscience [sanctified freewill]

Basically you said but now it has to be made holy by the strength and determination of our new sanctified freewill and we still don’t need God to work in us to will and to do. Who needs God after we are saved? That’s it in a nutshell. We didn’t need Him before--- until we recognized He died for our sins, we ask for powers and after He grants our freewill with “better powers” we don’t need Him any more. Do you see the blasphemy?


As I said before, the above glorious cleansing of our body and soul is only possible through the gift of freedom of our will,

Actually its just the opposite, it is from actually being shown that we have no freedom of will. This will truly cleanse you. And again do you see God replaced by our freewill or the man of sin who opposes and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God [‘as a god’] sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God [‘is a god’]. You now said we have the power to save ourselves or to cleanse our body and soul. Is this not what I said Christianity does? And you responded “I never heard any preacher say that; but they do say, you must co-operate with God by repenting”

Again I quote myself “Will they admit that? No. Is that what they are doing? Yes.”

brought about by the presence in our conscience of the Holy Spirit.

And so you are either saying the Spirit is only present in our conscience (therefore maybe not really real) and Hes there but does nothing, not “works in you to will and to do” you now have a sanctified freewill for that or you are saying Hes there but like a good shoulder angel telling what you should and shouldn’t do yet still is not influencing your will because its free (basically whats the point of it being there if it doesn’t influence your freewill).


In John 14 – 6, Jesus said, “I am the ‘Way’, the ‘Truth’, and the ‘Life’; no one comes to the father, but through me”. Yes!
He is the “Way” because we must follow the footsteps of his earthly life = repentance
He is the “Truth” because he is the embodiment of unchanging holiness = God
He is also the “Life” because he is the eternal Word = life

You quoted that scripture but what you wrote before it contradicts what is underlined.

 

[free spirit]

AK4
YOUR ARGUMENT IS USELESS, IT IS LIKE DEBATING THE FOLLOWING ARGUMENTS.
'IF ADAM AND EVE WERE THE ONLY COUPLE ON EARTH, THAN THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS COMMITTED INCEST.'
AND "IF EVE CAME OUT AF ADAM THEN HE HAD SEX WITH HIMSELF"



WITH ALL YOU DEEP KNOWLEDGE OF THE MYSTERIES OF GOD WORKINGS, YOU HAVE MISSED THE OBVIOUS.
YOU WROTE, (QUOTE) "ONE MOMENT THEY WERE AT EASE AND SAFE IN THE UPPER ROOM, AND A LATER MOMENT THEY WERE IN THE GARDEN SURROUNDED BY ROMAN SOLDIER" AS I SAID BEFORE, YOU SPIRIT IS NOT IN THE NT.
YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT THE ROMANS DID NOT ARRESTED JESUS.
WHO ARRESTED JESUS?


To know who arrested Jesus does not seem important for the purpose of the gospel, but if believers have been misinformed on such a small matter, how can we be sure that the rest of what we have been led to believe is correct? After all, no one wants to believe a lie.

Contrary to popular belief the Romans did not arrest Jesus, nor did they stand guard at his tomb. You may ask, if the Romans did not do those things, who did? The answer is simple; the Jewish temple guards did! It is possible that you didn’t even know they existed.

You should know that the Jews had a treaty with the Romans and enjoyed a certain amount of autonomy, the High Priest had at his command a number of temple guards, for in the gospel of John 18 – 3 & 12, we read, “Judas then having received the cohort, and officers from the chief priest and the Pharisees, came there with lanterns and torches and weapons.” In verse 12, we read, “ so the cohort and the commander, and the officers of the Jews, arrested Jesus and bound him, and led him to Annas first; for he was father-in-law of Caiaphas, who was high priest that year.” Any freethinking Christian would know that if the Romans arrested Jesus they would have taken Jesus to Pilate, and not to the High Priest.

The temple guard are mentioned again in ACTS 5 – 21 to 26, for we read, “And upon hearing this, they entered into the temple about daybreak, and began to teach. Now when the High Priest and his associates had come, they called the council together, even all the senate of the sons of Israel, and sent orders to the prison house for them to be brought. But the officers who came did not find them in the prison; and they returned, and reported back, saying, we found the prison house locked quite securely and the guards standing at the doors; but when we had opened up, we found no one inside.” Now when the captain of the temple guard and the chief priest heard these words, they were greatly perplexed about them as to what would come of this. But someone came and reported to them, “Behold, the men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!” then the captain went along with the officers and proceeded to bring them back without violence.” It is obvious that the temple guards and the captain were Jewish, because in the above scriptures we can clearly see that the guards could freely enter the temple to arrest the disciples. Furthermore in the trial Pilate clearly demonstrated by what he did and said to be at a loss as to why Jesus was brought before him.

The temple’s guards also stood guard at Jesus’ tomb, for we read in Matthew 27 – 65, “ Pilate said to them, “You have a guard; go, make it as secure as you know how.” As you can see Pilate did not give them a guard but he said, “You have a guard.”

However, to know the above information should not make much difference to our faith, but to know the truth of how things unfolded is beneficial to our understanding, which is the light of knowledge. For it is written, “If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!” In other words, if we have believed a lie, how great is that lie.

Glory to God

 

[MountainHumanist]

Free Spirit: I am new to this thread so I would like to revisit the original question. Is this a discussion about the historical accuracy of the NT? It's development over centuries? The formation of the canon? Can you be more precise about the nature of the original question?

In general, I would answer I know more about the NT than the average person but far less about it than many scholars. I guess you could call me an extremely amateur scholar but that may be stretching it. I find the NT fascinating in how it shows the development of a major religious movement over time and how theological concepts evolve.