free spirit
Well-Known Member
AK4
You said
It is true, but were did you find the scripture that supports that.
__________________
You said
It is true, but were did you find the scripture that supports that.
__________________
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Do you understand the New Testament
- Thread starter free spirit
- Start date
AK4
Well-Known Member
Here are a couple of many
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? ..."26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth"
George Campbell
Member
Sorry...I don't believe in ghosts, holy or otherwise.
Various groups which infer that they thoroughly understand the bible number in the tens of thousands. It is documented that there are over 44,000 denominations, conventions, sects, cults, thread beliefs of that one small book which is even smaller when one looks at the same stories told multiple times.
Some immerse in water, some sprinkle, some don't even baptize. Some preach on Saturday, some on Sunday. Some fast and some have to have a pew all to themselves. Some pray aloud and some don't. Some go in debt for buildings and others don't believe in it. Some use musical instruments and some do not. Some believe in infant baptism and some don't. Some think hell is the absence of god and others believe in the flames. Some speak in tongues...some "get the fire." Some believe in healing by touching and some do not. Some handle snakes. Some believe in pre destination and believe you cannot change destiny...I had an uncle who believed that all of his 95 years. His Primitive Baptist Church met two days a week, Saturday and Sunday and everybody camped on the church grounds.
All this is because of the mass confusion in the bible. Nothing is really spelled out and any major facet has more than one way to read it as far as multiple accounts by different people. That's why there are more than 44,000 ways to believe.
Strange...I'm a licensed amateur radio operator, 1959. I was told that I would be required to send and receive international morse code at 13wpm and answer 50 questions, some discussion types and some multiple choice. I bought a code practice oscillator and began on the code and a friend loaned me a study guide and about a year later I drove to Atlanta, appeared before an FCC examiner, took the test and passed it.
I didn't need some umaginary ghost to tell me or show me anything and if that's the kind of god there is he's really playing games with us. Either that or god was created by man in his image...which is what I believe. The cruel things caused by god all through the bible are things men do...not the creator of a universe.
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theosopher
Member
You can get the whole gospel from John. There is no need for Paul.
Read the scriptural quotes on this page:
Go with god
free spirit
Well-Known Member
Yes the Gospel of John is the same and yet different, it contain among other things the question and the answer of what is truth, the truth that cancels divisions between creed and community; it is spelled out in the following lines, Can you see it?
In the gospel of John 18 – 33 to 38, we read of an exchange between Pilate the Roman governor and Jesus. It unfolds in the following manner: “Pilate therefore entered again into the praetorium, and summoned Jesus, and said to him: Are you the king of the Jews? Jesus answered, “Are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about me?” Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priest delivered you up to me; what have you done?” Jesus answered. My kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world, then my servant would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, my kingdom is not of this realm.”
Pilate therefore said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered: “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.”
Pilate said to him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, “I find no guilt in him.”
If you can see what is the truth you have been blessed and you are a brother of mine.
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
Yes it is confusing to say the least, nevertheless among the coating mess there is Gold, and it is up to us to find it. God does not ply game with us, the difficulty is actually a filter designed to keep out the unworthy of the glory of God.
finding It has a lot to do with your attitude toward your God and neighbor.
Greetings, AK4!
　
theosopher (#1035):
" . . . How can anyone ask god for help with no will? . . . Moses said in these books I put before you life and death, choose life."
　
yrgo:
In the miniseries "The Thornbirds," a Roman Catholic archbishop, commenting on the Ancient Greek tragedy "Hippolytus," says:
"Ah, that is the cruelty. Because this IS his fate. HE CANNOT CHOOSE to love any more than his poor mother can choose to be cold. The gods have willed it. For their sport. Cruel but rather appealing system, is it not? NO DECISIONS TO MAKE. NO CONSCIENCE. NO AGONY OF FREE WILL. NOTHING."
　
SAYS AK4 (according to yrgo):
　
FATE!
NEVER are ENTIRELY INDEPENDENT CHOICES made by people!
Destinies are determined by Divine Will, with favorable outcomes brought about by God's grace and unfavorable occurring in default of his unmerited and merciful intervention.
A rather appealing system, is it not?
No independent decisions to make, no conscience to consider, no burden or agony of FREE WILL to bear, and no enlightened and estimable exercises of FREE WILL to lay before the throne as a way of loving God "with actions" instead of just loving Him "in truth" "with words or tongue." (a)
(a) 1Jn 3.18, NIV; cf. 1Jn 5.3; Jn 14.31a (Mt 26.42), NIV
　
AK4 (#1001):
" . . . Hope this helps because loosing the doctrine of freewill will truly set you in His rest."
　
yrgo:
　
When THE ENTIRE CORE of the Christian Scriptures | and THE WHOLE GIST of Christian theology | concern the "ministry" (a) | of a "great high priest" (b) | "in service to God" (c), |
an "apostle and high priest" (d) | charged with the task | of purchasing (e) and purifying (f) | lowly MORAL AGENTS | who are "LIKE GOD, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL" (g), |
and transforming them | not only into "children of God" (h) | who are "like God in TRUE RIGHTEOUSNESS and [TRUE] HOLINESS" (i) |
but also into a Spirit-filled "people of God" (j) | that follow the example | of "the great shepherd of the sheep" (k) | by loving "righteousness" and hating "wickedness" (l) | and exercising the gift of FREE WILL | in such a way (m) | that God's "good, pleasing and perfect will" (n) | is "done . . . [in their lives] as it is in heaven" (o), |
how can anyone question | whether human beings are really obliged | by an inwoven attribute and viselike responsibility (FREE WILL) | to spend every waking moment | consciously or unconsciously approving or rejecting | OF THEIR OWN VOLITION and WITH EVERY SINGLE VOLUNTARY MUSCLE MOVEMENT | answers to the perennial and paramount question | "WHAT IS IMPORTANT?"
　
(a) Heb 8.6
(b) Heb 4.14
(c) Heb 2.17, NIV
(d) Heb 3.1
(e) cf. Rev 5.9; Tit 2.14
(f) cf. Tit 2.14 (Rev 5.10)
(g) Ge 3.5; cf. Ge 3.22
(h) Jn 1.12-13; cf. Ro 8.29
(i) Eph 4.24, modified NIV
(j) 1Pe 2.9-10; cf. Rev 1.6
(k) Heb 13.20
(l) Heb 1.9; cf. 1Th 5.21-22
(m) cf. Lk 22.42
(n) Ro 12.2, NIV
(o) cf. Mt 6.10b
　
AK4 (#1001):
" . . . loosing the doctrine of freewill will truly set you in His rest."
　
yrgo:
Rest from "free will," from "decisions," from "conscience"?
For all souls who are "made . . . in the likeness of God" (a) and who are therefore capable of distinguishing between right and wrongespecially "the mature" (b) among such creaturesthere is as little "rest" from having the say regarding acceptance of proposed answers to the most fundamental of all questions and regarding any action to be taken in connection with said answers as there is rest from BREATHING!
(a) Ge 5.1; cf. Ge 1.27
(b) Heb 5.13-14
　
　
CONTINUED . . .
　
theosopher (#1035):
" . . . How can anyone ask god for help with no will? . . . Moses said in these books I put before you life and death, choose life."
　
yrgo:
In the miniseries "The Thornbirds," a Roman Catholic archbishop, commenting on the Ancient Greek tragedy "Hippolytus," says:
"Ah, that is the cruelty. Because this IS his fate. HE CANNOT CHOOSE to love any more than his poor mother can choose to be cold. The gods have willed it. For their sport. Cruel but rather appealing system, is it not? NO DECISIONS TO MAKE. NO CONSCIENCE. NO AGONY OF FREE WILL. NOTHING."
　
SAYS AK4 (according to yrgo):
　
FATE!
NEVER are ENTIRELY INDEPENDENT CHOICES made by people!
Destinies are determined by Divine Will, with favorable outcomes brought about by God's grace and unfavorable occurring in default of his unmerited and merciful intervention.
A rather appealing system, is it not?
No independent decisions to make, no conscience to consider, no burden or agony of FREE WILL to bear, and no enlightened and estimable exercises of FREE WILL to lay before the throne as a way of loving God "with actions" instead of just loving Him "in truth" "with words or tongue." (a)
(a) 1Jn 3.18, NIV; cf. 1Jn 5.3; Jn 14.31a (Mt 26.42), NIV
　
AK4 (#1001):
" . . . Hope this helps because loosing the doctrine of freewill will truly set you in His rest."
　
yrgo:
　
When THE ENTIRE CORE of the Christian Scriptures | and THE WHOLE GIST of Christian theology | concern the "ministry" (a) | of a "great high priest" (b) | "in service to God" (c), |
an "apostle and high priest" (d) | charged with the task | of purchasing (e) and purifying (f) | lowly MORAL AGENTS | who are "LIKE GOD, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL" (g), |
and transforming them | not only into "children of God" (h) | who are "like God in TRUE RIGHTEOUSNESS and [TRUE] HOLINESS" (i) |
but also into a Spirit-filled "people of God" (j) | that follow the example | of "the great shepherd of the sheep" (k) | by loving "righteousness" and hating "wickedness" (l) | and exercising the gift of FREE WILL | in such a way (m) | that God's "good, pleasing and perfect will" (n) | is "done . . . [in their lives] as it is in heaven" (o), |
how can anyone question | whether human beings are really obliged | by an inwoven attribute and viselike responsibility (FREE WILL) | to spend every waking moment | consciously or unconsciously approving or rejecting | OF THEIR OWN VOLITION and WITH EVERY SINGLE VOLUNTARY MUSCLE MOVEMENT | answers to the perennial and paramount question | "WHAT IS IMPORTANT?"
　
(a) Heb 8.6
(b) Heb 4.14
(c) Heb 2.17, NIV
(d) Heb 3.1
(e) cf. Rev 5.9; Tit 2.14
(f) cf. Tit 2.14 (Rev 5.10)
(g) Ge 3.5; cf. Ge 3.22
(h) Jn 1.12-13; cf. Ro 8.29
(i) Eph 4.24, modified NIV
(j) 1Pe 2.9-10; cf. Rev 1.6
(k) Heb 13.20
(l) Heb 1.9; cf. 1Th 5.21-22
(m) cf. Lk 22.42
(n) Ro 12.2, NIV
(o) cf. Mt 6.10b
　
AK4 (#1001):
" . . . loosing the doctrine of freewill will truly set you in His rest."
　
yrgo:
Rest from "free will," from "decisions," from "conscience"?
For all souls who are "made . . . in the likeness of God" (a) and who are therefore capable of distinguishing between right and wrongespecially "the mature" (b) among such creaturesthere is as little "rest" from having the say regarding acceptance of proposed answers to the most fundamental of all questions and regarding any action to be taken in connection with said answers as there is rest from BREATHING!
(a) Ge 5.1; cf. Ge 1.27
(b) Heb 5.13-14
　
　
CONTINUED . . .
Continuation of Post #1068
　
　
NOTE:
the Father (Mt 7.21) = God (Mk 3.35); cf. Jn 4.23-24
God (Mk 3.35) = the Father (Mt 7.21); cf. Jn 16.27-28
　
SAYS JESUS (Mt 7.21, modified NIV):
" 21 'NOT EVERYONE who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven.'"
　
POINT TO PONDER:
"NOT EVERYONE . . . DOES THE WILL OF . . . [GOD] . . . "
　
SAYS JESUS (Mk 3:31-33,35, NIV):
" 31 Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, 'Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.' 33 'Who are my mother and my brothers?' he asked. 35 'Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.'"
　
POINT TO PONDER:
　
IF
AK4 says that not everyone is Jesus' brother, sister, or mother,
THEN
AK4 must agree that God's will is NOT being done by all
AND
should agree that persons NOT DOING THE FATHER'S WILL are FREE to do their own. (a)
(a) cf. Isa 58.13, NIV
　
HOWEVER:
While AK4 will agree that "God's [express as opposed to permissive] will is NOT being done by all," AK4 can NOT agree that "persons NOT DOING GOD'S WILL are FREE to do their own.
　
SAYS AK4 (#1001):
　
" . . . your will is influenced, inspired etc . . . by something.
You . . . ARE listening and following someone/thing . . .
It pretty much falls under two categories of who you are listening to:
1. God through Jesus or one of His angels or messengers (Apostles, teachers . . . who actually teach the truth)
2. Satan or one of his demons/ministers . . . "
　
yrgo:
AK4, you seem to think that no human being is a truly free moral agent, that every person has a master and is doing either the will of God or the will of Satan.
　
AK4'S THINKING (according to yrgo):
　
HUMAN BEING
GOD'S MERCY (a)
= OBJECT OF WRATH (b)
+ COMPULSORY ("CAUSED") PREFERENCE (c) CONFORMING TO "GOD'S PURPOSE IN ELECTION" (d)
= NO SPIRIT OF GOD
+ NO FREE WILL
= A PERSON WITH NO WILL BUT SATAN'S
　
(a) Ro 9.16
(b) Ro 9.22
(c) AK4's Post #1001
(d) Ro 9.11, NIV
　
HUMAN BEING
+ GOD'S MERCY (a)
= OBJECT OF MERCY (b)
+ COMPULSORY ("CAUSED") PREFERENCE CONFORMING TO "GOD'S PURPOSE IN ELECTION" (c)
+ THE SPIRIT OF GOD
+ NO FREE WILL
= A PERSON WITH NO WILL BUT GOD'S
　
(a) Ro 9.16
(b) Ro 9.23
(c) Ro 9.11, NIV
　
yrgo's THINKING:
HUMAN BEING
GOD'S MERCY (a) OWING TO DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE
= OBJECT OF WRATH (b)
+ FREE WILL
+ REJECTION OF GOD [FORESEEN BY GOD AND THEREFORE CONFORMING TO HIS "PURPOSE IN ELECTION" (c)]
= NO SPIRIT OF GOD
= A "WEAK" FREE WILL DOMINATED BY A SINFUL (unregenerated) NATURE (d)
　
(a) Ro 9.16
(b) Ro 9.22
(c) Ro 9.11, NIV
(d) Ro 8.6-7
　
　
HUMAN BEING
+ GOD'S MERCY (a) OWING TO DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE
= OBJECT OF MERCY (b)
+ FREE WILL
+ DECISION TO SEEK GOD (c) [FORESEEN BY GOD AND THEREFORE CONFORMING TO HIS "PURPOSE IN ELECTION" (d)]
+ THE SPIRIT OF GOD
= A "STRONG" FREE WILL DIRECTED BY THE SPIRIT (e)
　
(a) Ro 9.16
(b) Ro 9.23
(c) Ac 17.27; Jer 29.12-13
(d) Ro 9.11, NIV
(e) Ro 8.5; Gal 5.25
　
　
All the best to you, AK4!
　
　
NOTE:
the Father (Mt 7.21) = God (Mk 3.35); cf. Jn 4.23-24
God (Mk 3.35) = the Father (Mt 7.21); cf. Jn 16.27-28
　
SAYS JESUS (Mt 7.21, modified NIV):
" 21 'NOT EVERYONE who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven.'"
　
POINT TO PONDER:
"NOT EVERYONE . . . DOES THE WILL OF . . . [GOD] . . . "
　
SAYS JESUS (Mk 3:31-33,35, NIV):
" 31 Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, 'Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.' 33 'Who are my mother and my brothers?' he asked. 35 'Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.'"
　
POINT TO PONDER:
　
IF
AK4 says that not everyone is Jesus' brother, sister, or mother,
THEN
AK4 must agree that God's will is NOT being done by all
AND
should agree that persons NOT DOING THE FATHER'S WILL are FREE to do their own. (a)
(a) cf. Isa 58.13, NIV
　
HOWEVER:
While AK4 will agree that "God's [express as opposed to permissive] will is NOT being done by all," AK4 can NOT agree that "persons NOT DOING GOD'S WILL are FREE to do their own.
　
SAYS AK4 (#1001):
　
" . . . your will is influenced, inspired etc . . . by something.
You . . . ARE listening and following someone/thing . . .
It pretty much falls under two categories of who you are listening to:
1. God through Jesus or one of His angels or messengers (Apostles, teachers . . . who actually teach the truth)
2. Satan or one of his demons/ministers . . . "
　
yrgo:
AK4, you seem to think that no human being is a truly free moral agent, that every person has a master and is doing either the will of God or the will of Satan.
　
AK4'S THINKING (according to yrgo):
　
HUMAN BEING
GOD'S MERCY (a)
= OBJECT OF WRATH (b)
+ COMPULSORY ("CAUSED") PREFERENCE (c) CONFORMING TO "GOD'S PURPOSE IN ELECTION" (d)
= NO SPIRIT OF GOD
+ NO FREE WILL
= A PERSON WITH NO WILL BUT SATAN'S
　
(a) Ro 9.16
(b) Ro 9.22
(c) AK4's Post #1001
(d) Ro 9.11, NIV
　
HUMAN BEING
+ GOD'S MERCY (a)
= OBJECT OF MERCY (b)
+ COMPULSORY ("CAUSED") PREFERENCE CONFORMING TO "GOD'S PURPOSE IN ELECTION" (c)
+ THE SPIRIT OF GOD
+ NO FREE WILL
= A PERSON WITH NO WILL BUT GOD'S
　
(a) Ro 9.16
(b) Ro 9.23
(c) Ro 9.11, NIV
　
yrgo's THINKING:
HUMAN BEING
GOD'S MERCY (a) OWING TO DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE
= OBJECT OF WRATH (b)
+ FREE WILL
+ REJECTION OF GOD [FORESEEN BY GOD AND THEREFORE CONFORMING TO HIS "PURPOSE IN ELECTION" (c)]
= NO SPIRIT OF GOD
= A "WEAK" FREE WILL DOMINATED BY A SINFUL (unregenerated) NATURE (d)
　
(a) Ro 9.16
(b) Ro 9.22
(c) Ro 9.11, NIV
(d) Ro 8.6-7
　
　
HUMAN BEING
+ GOD'S MERCY (a) OWING TO DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE
= OBJECT OF MERCY (b)
+ FREE WILL
+ DECISION TO SEEK GOD (c) [FORESEEN BY GOD AND THEREFORE CONFORMING TO HIS "PURPOSE IN ELECTION" (d)]
+ THE SPIRIT OF GOD
= A "STRONG" FREE WILL DIRECTED BY THE SPIRIT (e)
　
(a) Ro 9.16
(b) Ro 9.23
(c) Ac 17.27; Jer 29.12-13
(d) Ro 9.11, NIV
(e) Ro 8.5; Gal 5.25
　
　
All the best to you, AK4!
AK4
Well-Known Member
Greetings yrgo and welcome to the forum
Greetings yrgo, welcome to the forum
This is where people are a little shortsighted because they think this is the only day/age of salvation.
Actually to be honest it is a rather appealing system compared to how it would be if we truly were masters of our own destinies. The Plan of God verses billions upon billions of individual freewills, which would you choose?
No independent decisions to make, no conscience to consider, no burden or agony of FREE WILL to bear, (a)
Once Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, mankind was given a little bit of a conscience. We have a conscience, but scriptures still say we need Him to be able to choose to do good. I will show you a good scripture on this later.
and no enlightened and estimable exercises of FREE WILL to lay before the throne as a way of loving God "with actions" instead of just loving Him "in truth" "with words or tongue."
Those God does enlighten do exercise their will [their ability to choose, not an uncaused/free choice]. God worked in them to want to will AND to do OF HIS good pleasure so not only do they lay before the throne actions and a tongue, but also A WILL WILLING to be lead to unto repentance act. A mind/will that will be influenced/inspired by Him, hence your will still wont be free.
　
AK4 (#1001):
" . . . Hope this helps because loosing the doctrine of freewill will truly set you in His rest."
　
yrgo:
　
When THE ENTIRE CORE of the Christian Scriptures | and THE WHOLE GIST of Christian theology | concern the "ministry" (a) | of a "great high priest" (b) | "in service to God" (c), |
an "apostle and high priest" (d) | charged with the task | of purchasing (e) and purifying (f) | lowly MORAL AGENTS | who are "LIKE GOD, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL"
Moral agentsthat ones sorta new to me but not really. Okay I can accept that we are moral agents [for now], but no where in the scriptures are we shown to be free moral agents. Heres one scripture that destroys such a thought
Jer 13:23 - "Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? {Then} you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil.
See the rhetorical question God asks? If the ethipian can change his skin and the leopard its spots, heck lets add the zebra its stripes, can 2 + 2 not equal 4, can a circle have points, etc etc, it matters not what analogy you pick. God is saying we cannot do good by ourselves. Every good thing comes from God [Jas 1:17], not man. We were made with carnal minds UNTIL God works in us BOTH to will and to do [Php 2:13] something good. Just because we have a knowledge of good doesnt mean we can do it all by ourselves. When we say we can do good by ourselves then we say we dont need God at all.
and transforming them | not only into "children of God" (h) | who are "like God in TRUE RIGHTEOUSNESS and [TRUE] HOLINESS" (i) |
but also into a Spirit-filled "people of God" (j) | that follow the example | of "the great shepherd of the sheep" (k) | by loving "righteousness" and hating "wickedness" (l) | and exercising the gift of FREE WILL
How about exercising the gift of will, the gift to choose good or evil yet still it is God who works in us to be able to choose/will and to do good. Theres no way around it.
how can anyone question | whether human beings are really obliged | by an inwoven attribute and viselike responsibility (FREE WILL) | to spend every waking moment | consciously or unconsciously approving or rejecting | OF THEIR OWN VOLITION and WITH EVERY SINGLE VOLUNTARY MUSCLE MOVEMENT | answers to the perennial and paramount question | "WHAT IS IMPORTANT?"
Its more like how can anyone not see that our wills are influenced by sooooo many things yet they still think that they can will something out of nothing. Not only is it a scientific FACT that this is an impossibility but also a scriptural FACT. No one including Jesus doesnt have a freewill.
　
AK4 (#1001):
" . . . loosing the doctrine of freewill will truly set you in His rest."
　
yrgo:
Rest from "free will," from "decisions," from "conscience"?
Again hardly anyone really knows the definition of freewill [yet they argue for something they know not of] and then do they even further break it down to know the definition of free and will? No. Freewill is like saying free decisions. Yes you do have the ability to make a decision [that what we havea will] but your decision was not free from influence especially divine forces [thats freewill].
Greetings yrgo, welcome to the forum
This is where people are a little shortsighted because they think this is the only day/age of salvation.
Actually to be honest it is a rather appealing system compared to how it would be if we truly were masters of our own destinies. The Plan of God verses billions upon billions of individual freewills, which would you choose?
No independent decisions to make, no conscience to consider, no burden or agony of FREE WILL to bear, (a)
Once Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, mankind was given a little bit of a conscience. We have a conscience, but scriptures still say we need Him to be able to choose to do good. I will show you a good scripture on this later.
and no enlightened and estimable exercises of FREE WILL to lay before the throne as a way of loving God "with actions" instead of just loving Him "in truth" "with words or tongue."
Those God does enlighten do exercise their will [their ability to choose, not an uncaused/free choice]. God worked in them to want to will AND to do OF HIS good pleasure so not only do they lay before the throne actions and a tongue, but also A WILL WILLING to be lead to unto repentance act. A mind/will that will be influenced/inspired by Him, hence your will still wont be free.
　
AK4 (#1001):
" . . . Hope this helps because loosing the doctrine of freewill will truly set you in His rest."
　
yrgo:
　
When THE ENTIRE CORE of the Christian Scriptures | and THE WHOLE GIST of Christian theology | concern the "ministry" (a) | of a "great high priest" (b) | "in service to God" (c), |
an "apostle and high priest" (d) | charged with the task | of purchasing (e) and purifying (f) | lowly MORAL AGENTS | who are "LIKE GOD, KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL"
Moral agentsthat ones sorta new to me but not really. Okay I can accept that we are moral agents [for now], but no where in the scriptures are we shown to be free moral agents. Heres one scripture that destroys such a thought
Jer 13:23 - "Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? {Then} you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil.
See the rhetorical question God asks? If the ethipian can change his skin and the leopard its spots, heck lets add the zebra its stripes, can 2 + 2 not equal 4, can a circle have points, etc etc, it matters not what analogy you pick. God is saying we cannot do good by ourselves. Every good thing comes from God [Jas 1:17], not man. We were made with carnal minds UNTIL God works in us BOTH to will and to do [Php 2:13] something good. Just because we have a knowledge of good doesnt mean we can do it all by ourselves. When we say we can do good by ourselves then we say we dont need God at all.
and transforming them | not only into "children of God" (h) | who are "like God in TRUE RIGHTEOUSNESS and [TRUE] HOLINESS" (i) |
but also into a Spirit-filled "people of God" (j) | that follow the example | of "the great shepherd of the sheep" (k) | by loving "righteousness" and hating "wickedness" (l) | and exercising the gift of FREE WILL
How about exercising the gift of will, the gift to choose good or evil yet still it is God who works in us to be able to choose/will and to do good. Theres no way around it.
how can anyone question | whether human beings are really obliged | by an inwoven attribute and viselike responsibility (FREE WILL) | to spend every waking moment | consciously or unconsciously approving or rejecting | OF THEIR OWN VOLITION and WITH EVERY SINGLE VOLUNTARY MUSCLE MOVEMENT | answers to the perennial and paramount question | "WHAT IS IMPORTANT?"
Its more like how can anyone not see that our wills are influenced by sooooo many things yet they still think that they can will something out of nothing. Not only is it a scientific FACT that this is an impossibility but also a scriptural FACT. No one including Jesus doesnt have a freewill.
　
AK4 (#1001):
" . . . loosing the doctrine of freewill will truly set you in His rest."
　
yrgo:
Rest from "free will," from "decisions," from "conscience"?
Again hardly anyone really knows the definition of freewill [yet they argue for something they know not of] and then do they even further break it down to know the definition of free and will? No. Freewill is like saying free decisions. Yes you do have the ability to make a decision [that what we havea will] but your decision was not free from influence especially divine forces [thats freewill].
AK4
Well-Known Member
For all souls who are "made . . . in the likeness of God" (a) and who are therefore capable of distinguishing between right and wrongespecially "the mature" (b) among such creaturesthere is as little "rest" from having the say regarding acceptance of proposed answers to the most fundamental of all questions and regarding any action to be taken in connection with said answers as there is rest from BREATHING!
See when you mix up will and freewill you get nothing but confusion. Try reading what you just said with what I put before it and see if that makes sense.
" 21 'NOT EVERYONE who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven.'"
Ahh this is the million dollar question. Not many really know that they are actually doing the will of the Father, why? Because of the whole concept/doctrine of freewill. This concept makes them THINK that they are doing something of themselves therefore Jesus statement here is like Hes really saying but only he WHO KNOWS that it is God who works in them to BOTH will and to do of His good pleasure will be doing the will of my Father who is in heaven. In otherwords since they recognize and know it is all of God and they know that they themselves are not freewilling whatever they do and they are actually do more than just the wonderful works mentioned prior to verse 21, they are doing the will of the Father. They are no longer deceived by this illusion/delusion of freewill.
　
POINT TO PONDER:
"NOT EVERYONE . . . DOES THE WILL OF . . . [GOD] . . . "
Correct. Those who believe that they freewill something all of themselves are not doing the will of the Father. Sounds like a contradiction but it aint. How does the scripture goas a man thinks, so is he. If you THINK you have the god defying powers of a freewill, you THINK you have the powers only God has, then you are doing YOUR will not the Fathers, so God gave them over to depraved minds so that exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature [themselves] rather than the Creator[Romans 1:24, 25] so they opposeth and exalteth himself [themselves] above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as a god sitteth in the temple of God [you are the temple of God], shewing himself that he is God. [2 Thess 2:4]
Do you see what freewill does? Take a look at the definition again and see if you see it
Free will ---the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and IS NOT SIMPLY DETERMINED by physical or DIVINE FORCES. [nope not even God]
SAYS JESUS (Mk 3:31-33,35, NIV):
" 31 Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, 'Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.' 33 'Who are my mother and my brothers?' he asked. 35 'Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.'"
Right, those who dont do His will are not His [Jesus] brother. That is why Jesus was able to call the Pharisees and scribes a fool and still be sinless. Whoever calls thy brother a fool will be in danger of Gehenna fire. They were not His brother not just because they didnt believe in Him but also because they probably believe in something like freewill back then. They were in fact doing Gods will by going against Jesus and then crucifying Him [for that was their purpose or they were raised up for this purpose], but they were going against Gods intentions trying to prevent the Kingdom of God from coming. They had to have thought that they were doing all this on their own or by what we call nowadays freewillyes this doctrine/philosophy is even older than that.
　
POINT TO PONDER:
　
IF
AK4 says that not everyone is Jesus' brother, sister, or mother,
THEN
AK4 must agree that God's will is NOT being done by all
Yup Gods will/intentions is not being done
AND
should agree that persons NOT DOING THE FATHER'S WILL are FREE to do their own.
How many understand that there is a difference between Gods Will [ultimate goal] verses Gods intentions. Yup mankind is set against Gods Will/goal/plan [unwillingly, Rom 8:20] but in no way can we thwart His will. So since we were set/made unwillingly to go against His Plan then we are not free to on our own because ultimately we are still fulfilling His plan/goal/Will.
Isa 58.13, NIV
Oh verses like these show a will, an ability to choose not a freewill. See next statement for explanation of verses like these.
　
HOWEVER:
While AK4 will agree that "God's [express as opposed to permissive] will is NOT being done by all," AK4 can NOT agree that "persons NOT DOING GOD'S WILL are FREE to do their own.
Whos will are they doing? Theirs? Are they not influenced by satan not to follow Gods commandments? Just like what happened to Eve, Satan influenced/caused and appealed to her lusts of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life to MAKE that person not do Gods will. Just like what is being said to them in Isa 58:13. Those people then will go their own ways, after their own interests an d pursue their own affairs because satan will entice/influence their wills to go after lusts of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life
yrgo:
AK4, you seem to think that no human being is a truly free moral agent, that every person has a master and is doing either the will of God or the will of Satan.
Is it me or is this what the scriptures say? Lets examine this scripture and try not to be holier than thou when comparing them of that day with us of this day. First lets remember the verse you stated earlier about those who are doing Gods will
35 'Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.'"---or in otherwords these are the people OF God. For the people OF God are lead by God. I believe we can agree on that cant we?
Now another scripture
Joh 8:44 - You are OF your father the devil, and you choose to do your father's desires [his pleasures/his will/his wishes].
Now is this any different from Jesus verse about the people of God? Since the are OF their father the devil, they choose to do of his desires or will. And its just the same with the people of God you are of your Father, God, and you choose to do your Fathers desires/will---is it wrong to say that? I think not. So lets add this powerful scripture to it
For it is God who works in you BOTH to will and to do OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE
Versus
For it is the devil [you are of your father the devil] who works in you BOTH to will and to do [you choose to do] of his pleasures [your fathers desires/pleasures].
We can not be truly free moral agents when Jesus says we are either of God or of the devil.
Acts 13:10 "You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right!
Either you are a child of God and is influenced by Godtherefore not a free moral agent who can do good by ourselves or you are a child of the devil and is influenced by Satan---therefore not a free moral agent.
See when you mix up will and freewill you get nothing but confusion. Try reading what you just said with what I put before it and see if that makes sense.
" 21 'NOT EVERYONE who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven.'"
Ahh this is the million dollar question. Not many really know that they are actually doing the will of the Father, why? Because of the whole concept/doctrine of freewill. This concept makes them THINK that they are doing something of themselves therefore Jesus statement here is like Hes really saying but only he WHO KNOWS that it is God who works in them to BOTH will and to do of His good pleasure will be doing the will of my Father who is in heaven. In otherwords since they recognize and know it is all of God and they know that they themselves are not freewilling whatever they do and they are actually do more than just the wonderful works mentioned prior to verse 21, they are doing the will of the Father. They are no longer deceived by this illusion/delusion of freewill.
　
POINT TO PONDER:
"NOT EVERYONE . . . DOES THE WILL OF . . . [GOD] . . . "
Correct. Those who believe that they freewill something all of themselves are not doing the will of the Father. Sounds like a contradiction but it aint. How does the scripture goas a man thinks, so is he. If you THINK you have the god defying powers of a freewill, you THINK you have the powers only God has, then you are doing YOUR will not the Fathers, so God gave them over to depraved minds so that exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature [themselves] rather than the Creator[Romans 1:24, 25] so they opposeth and exalteth himself [themselves] above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as a god sitteth in the temple of God [you are the temple of God], shewing himself that he is God. [2 Thess 2:4]
Do you see what freewill does? Take a look at the definition again and see if you see it
Free will ---the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and IS NOT SIMPLY DETERMINED by physical or DIVINE FORCES. [nope not even God]
SAYS JESUS (Mk 3:31-33,35, NIV):
" 31 Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, 'Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.' 33 'Who are my mother and my brothers?' he asked. 35 'Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.'"
Right, those who dont do His will are not His [Jesus] brother. That is why Jesus was able to call the Pharisees and scribes a fool and still be sinless. Whoever calls thy brother a fool will be in danger of Gehenna fire. They were not His brother not just because they didnt believe in Him but also because they probably believe in something like freewill back then. They were in fact doing Gods will by going against Jesus and then crucifying Him [for that was their purpose or they were raised up for this purpose], but they were going against Gods intentions trying to prevent the Kingdom of God from coming. They had to have thought that they were doing all this on their own or by what we call nowadays freewillyes this doctrine/philosophy is even older than that.
　
POINT TO PONDER:
　
IF
AK4 says that not everyone is Jesus' brother, sister, or mother,
THEN
AK4 must agree that God's will is NOT being done by all
Yup Gods will/intentions is not being done
AND
should agree that persons NOT DOING THE FATHER'S WILL are FREE to do their own.
How many understand that there is a difference between Gods Will [ultimate goal] verses Gods intentions. Yup mankind is set against Gods Will/goal/plan [unwillingly, Rom 8:20] but in no way can we thwart His will. So since we were set/made unwillingly to go against His Plan then we are not free to on our own because ultimately we are still fulfilling His plan/goal/Will.
Isa 58.13, NIV
Oh verses like these show a will, an ability to choose not a freewill. See next statement for explanation of verses like these.
　
HOWEVER:
While AK4 will agree that "God's [express as opposed to permissive] will is NOT being done by all," AK4 can NOT agree that "persons NOT DOING GOD'S WILL are FREE to do their own.
Whos will are they doing? Theirs? Are they not influenced by satan not to follow Gods commandments? Just like what happened to Eve, Satan influenced/caused and appealed to her lusts of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life to MAKE that person not do Gods will. Just like what is being said to them in Isa 58:13. Those people then will go their own ways, after their own interests an d pursue their own affairs because satan will entice/influence their wills to go after lusts of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life
yrgo:
AK4, you seem to think that no human being is a truly free moral agent, that every person has a master and is doing either the will of God or the will of Satan.
Is it me or is this what the scriptures say? Lets examine this scripture and try not to be holier than thou when comparing them of that day with us of this day. First lets remember the verse you stated earlier about those who are doing Gods will
35 'Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.'"---or in otherwords these are the people OF God. For the people OF God are lead by God. I believe we can agree on that cant we?
Now another scripture
Joh 8:44 - You are OF your father the devil, and you choose to do your father's desires [his pleasures/his will/his wishes].
Now is this any different from Jesus verse about the people of God? Since the are OF their father the devil, they choose to do of his desires or will. And its just the same with the people of God you are of your Father, God, and you choose to do your Fathers desires/will---is it wrong to say that? I think not. So lets add this powerful scripture to it
For it is God who works in you BOTH to will and to do OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE
Versus
For it is the devil [you are of your father the devil] who works in you BOTH to will and to do [you choose to do] of his pleasures [your fathers desires/pleasures].
We can not be truly free moral agents when Jesus says we are either of God or of the devil.
Acts 13:10 "You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right!
Either you are a child of God and is influenced by Godtherefore not a free moral agent who can do good by ourselves or you are a child of the devil and is influenced by Satan---therefore not a free moral agent.
AK4
Well-Known Member
AK4'S THINKING (according to yrgo):
　
HUMAN BEING
GOD'S MERCY (a)
= OBJECT OF WRATH (b)
+ COMPULSORY ("CAUSED") PREFERENCE (c) CONFORMING TO "GOD'S PURPOSE IN ELECTION" (d)
= NO SPIRIT OF GOD
+ NO FREE WILL
= A PERSON WITH NO WILL BUT SATAN'S
　
(a) Ro 9.16
(b) Ro 9.22
(c) AK4's Post #1001
(d) Ro 9.11, NIV
　
Lets try this
HUMAN BEING
= COMPULSORY ("CAUSED") PREFERENCE I.E. A WILL (c) NON CONFORMING TO "GOD'S PURPOSE IN ELECTION"
+ NO FREE WILL
GOD'S MERCY (a)
- NO SPIRIT OF GOD
= A PERSON WITH A WILL BUT IS INFLUENCED BY SATAN
= OBJECT OF WRATH (b)
HUMAN BEING
+ GOD'S MERCY (a)
= OBJECT OF MERCY (b)
+ COMPULSORY ("CAUSED") PREFERENCE CONFORMING TO "GOD'S PURPOSE IN ELECTION" (c)
+ THE SPIRIT OF GOD
+ NO FREE WILL
= A PERSON WITH NO WILL BUT GOD'S
　
(a) Ro 9.16
(b) Ro 9.23
(c) Ro 9.11, NIV
　Lets try this
HUMAN BEING
= COMPULSORY ("CAUSED") PREFERENCE I.E. A WILL (c) CONFORMING TO "GOD'S PURPOSE IN ELECTION"
+ NO FREE WILL
+ GOD'S MERCY (a)
+ NO SPIRIT OF GOD
= A PERSON WITH A WILL BUT IS INFLUENCED BY GOD
= OBJECT OF MERCY (b)
　
HUMAN BEING
GOD'S MERCY (a)
= OBJECT OF WRATH (b)
+ COMPULSORY ("CAUSED") PREFERENCE (c) CONFORMING TO "GOD'S PURPOSE IN ELECTION" (d)
= NO SPIRIT OF GOD
+ NO FREE WILL
= A PERSON WITH NO WILL BUT SATAN'S
　
(a) Ro 9.16
(b) Ro 9.22
(c) AK4's Post #1001
(d) Ro 9.11, NIV
　
Lets try this
HUMAN BEING
= COMPULSORY ("CAUSED") PREFERENCE I.E. A WILL (c) NON CONFORMING TO "GOD'S PURPOSE IN ELECTION"
+ NO FREE WILL
GOD'S MERCY (a)
- NO SPIRIT OF GOD
= A PERSON WITH A WILL BUT IS INFLUENCED BY SATAN
= OBJECT OF WRATH (b)
HUMAN BEING
+ GOD'S MERCY (a)
= OBJECT OF MERCY (b)
+ COMPULSORY ("CAUSED") PREFERENCE CONFORMING TO "GOD'S PURPOSE IN ELECTION" (c)
+ THE SPIRIT OF GOD
+ NO FREE WILL
= A PERSON WITH NO WILL BUT GOD'S
　
(a) Ro 9.16
(b) Ro 9.23
(c) Ro 9.11, NIV
　Lets try this
HUMAN BEING
= COMPULSORY ("CAUSED") PREFERENCE I.E. A WILL (c) CONFORMING TO "GOD'S PURPOSE IN ELECTION"
+ NO FREE WILL
+ GOD'S MERCY (a)
+ NO SPIRIT OF GOD
= A PERSON WITH A WILL BUT IS INFLUENCED BY GOD
= OBJECT OF MERCY (b)
AK4
Well-Known Member
free spirit
Well-Known Member
AK4
Well-Known Member
I disagree and the evidence of this is everywhere throughout history that it has been the "educated" who have distorted the scriptures---sometimes on purpose. They are the ones [theologians and scholars] who have given us the doctrines like hell, rapture, immortal soul, freewill, trinity, changing the meaning of words to fit their doctrines etc etc, the list could go on and on. Its not the "laymen" who are coming up with these things. Just do some research on it and see what the "leaders" since the first century till now have said on why they came up with the doctrine of hell. You do this and you will see how wrong you are in what i underlined.
Okay maybe the message is simple, but to actually do it is not. You cant be holy if you dont know what holy is and if the "learned" have distorted the scriptures keeping you from learning what it is to be holy. Again if you are trying to be holy and worship God in holiness and yet while doing this you believe in one of the most damnable doctrines like hell, are you really being holy? Is this being "holy for I am holy"?
AK4
Well-Known Member
Thanks yrgo. I found another verse that destroys freewill. Like ive been trying to show anyone who has been on this thread and others, the bible SCREAMS that we no freewill and this is littered throughout all scripture. Yet the church--even though this philosophy predates them, but now it is more re-enforced by them-- still teaches adamantly that we have a freewill. Again they blatantly call God and His Word a liar. Heres that verse
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. (Proverbs 16:1)
Seems as if Paul was right when he penned
For it is God who works in you BOTH to will and to do of His good pleasure (Php 2:13]
You cant fit freewill into verses like these.
Last edited:
free spirit
Well-Known Member
Greetings, AK4!
　
Your Post #1077 has just been found and printed out, but a quick look at Proverbs 21.1 and 16.1 has already convinced me that those scriptures need not receive the same careful consideration presently being given to other points you have made and to other scriptures you have cited.
　
Where Proverbs 21.1 is concerned, the king in question was no doubt a God-fearing ruler of Israel, and the fact that "the LORD" could be said to be directing the thoughts of a believing monarch praying, presumably, "not my will, but yours be done" (a), can hardly be taken as evidence that such a leader of God's people had no free will.
(a) Lk 22.42, NIV
Moreover, kindly remember all of the rulers of Israel and Judah who "did evil in the eyes of the LORD." (1Ki, 2Ki, 2Ch)
As for Proverbs 16.1, that passage must also be discounted, not only because the actual meaning is unclear but also because it makes a better case FOR free will than AGAINST it.
　
CONSIDER:
　
modified NRSV: "THE PLANS OF THE MIND BELONG TO MORTALS, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD."
modified NIV: "TO MAN BELONG THE PLANS OF THE HEART, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue."
modified NEB: "A MAN MAY ORDER HIS THOUGHTS, but the LORD inspires the words he utters."
modified LB: "WE CAN MAKE OUR PLANS, but the final outcome is in God's hands."
modified NCV: "PEOPLE MAY MAKE PLANS IN THEIR MINDS, but only the LORD can make them come true."
modified TEV: "WE MAY MAKE OUR PLANS, but God has the last word. (a)
(a) Footnote: "or God inspires our words."
Anyway, AK4, for me there remains the task of responding properly to two of your previous posts addressed to me, a job which may take a while.
　
In the meantime, all the best to you!
AK4
Well-Known Member
Educated by man and not by the Holy Spirit, therefore a double minded man.
By the sound and strength of your argument you must be confident that you are Holy as he is Holy: are you dead to sin, and is sin dead to you?
I wouldnt say that i am holy because there are plenty of things i do that i shouldnt do, but i do try. Im still a sinner yet God is still burning out of me the "hay, wood and stubble" read 1 Cor 3:11-15. I try to be dead to sin. I am not fully yet i do not let sin control me. Day by day i become more dead to sin
If you do not know the answer to this you are in real trouble, for you do not need scripture to know what is Holy, for he in his mercy has put his laws into the heart of every man.
This answer is half true but what you have basically said here is you dont need the Word of God to know what is holy. No i know you are not "really" saying that but that is what you are saying. Dont you think there was a reason why Paul told Timothy to study to show thyself approved? Why do you think it says that the Word of God is sharper than two edged sword and All scripture [thats the OT and NT, not just the NT] is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. So do you see how your statement shows only the half truth of the full truth. You DO need scripture.