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Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
It sure is. Do you need me to find you a brain-scan of love?
To show that love is material, I think more than a brain scan is needed. In order to show it's material, then love would need to behave like other material phenomena. For example: a specific quantity of "love" would need to be measured, and the phenomena resulting from that quantity would need to be predictable. IOW, can someone measure 30 cc's of love and predict how a person will behave after receiveing it? Another example: does love break down over time?

Using this method, many non-material things ( for lack of a better word ) exist. An idea, for instance. Can it be measured physically? Is it predictable? Does it break down over time?
 
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dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
no one is good in God's eyes compared to His inherent holiness
Respectfully, Genesis 1 describes God "seeing it was good" 7 times. The last time included all of creation, and described it as "very good". That even includes the beasts of the field, one of which plays a very important role in chapter 3 in eden.

So, I know that you have reasons to see none as good compared to God; but attributing that same negativity to God seems unfounded.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
She says she doesn't want to debate it, and I intend to respect that.

Thank you, Ella. I sincerely appreciate your thoughtfulness. As I said, I won't argue or debate my mediumship abilities, but I'm willing to share my backstory about how I finally accepted them. After I decided to start talking about my abilities here on RF, I decided that I would save this specific prequel part of my backstory until it was suggested that I have psychosis, or if I was asked about it or accused of it. It was mentioned in the post that you replied to. For the record, I've talked about my backstory and when I started to accept my psychic mediumship abilities in other posts, which I linked to at the end of this post. I spent most of my life trying very hard to ignore my abilities, and I thought that there was something wrong with me, despite the occasional confirmation that what I saw, heard, and felt was real, such as when I saw my first human spirit (read here). I never told anyone about what I was experiencing while I was growing up, and I didn't tell my husband until after we were married. He was the first person I ever told, and much to my surprise, he didn't freak out and accuse me of being delusional. He was, however, concerned that what I was experiencing was the result of the trauma I suffered from growing up in an abusive home. He suggested that I talk with a therapist to find out if what I was experiencing was trauma-related or if something else was wrong with me. I reluctantly agreed to see one, and an appointment was scheduled.

I didn't tell the therapist what was happening to me at first, but after a couple of sessions, I finally found the courage to tell her. She was also a devout Christian, and she was politely adamant that she did not believe in ghosts or anything else paranormal. I won't share any specific details about my sessions with her, but she recommended a psychiatrist that she worked with and suggested that I schedule an appointment. But before I could schedule the appointment, something very significant happened to my therapist that changed not only her professional diagnosis of me but also her views on the paranormal. She said that it changed her outlook on life.

To make a long story short, I met her, her husband, and her mother-in-law at a nearby restaurant. We talked for a few minutes before we were seated, and they told me that her husband's father-in-law had died recently. I suspected this because there was a spirit, an elderly gentleman who resembled her husband, who was standing beside his mother. I remember feeling very anxious because he noticed that I could see him because I looked right at him and grimaced at the sight of him. He tried to speak to me, but I pretended not to hear him. He became agitated that I was ignoring him, so he became even more insistent about talking to me and swore that he wouldn't leave me alone until I spoke to his wife on his behalf. He wasn't kidding because he bothered me the entire time we were in the restaurant, even following me to the ladies' room and then following me outside when I left. My therapist was very concerned about my sudden anxious behavior, so she followed me outside. I started to pace back and forth on the sidewalk, and she thought I was mumbling to myself, but I was trying to tell this spirit to leave me alone. I finally stopped abruptly from pacing and said aloud, "Fine. I'll talk to your wife for you!" "What do you want me to say?" My therapist just stood there staring at me. I turned to her and asked her if she would ask her mother-in-law to come out and see me. She was hesitant at first, but I asked her to please trust me.

She was reluctant, but she went back inside the restaurant, and a couple of minutes later she came back out with her mother-in-law and her husband. I looked at her mother-in-law and told her that she probably wouldn't believe me, but I have a message for her from her late husband. My therapist was irritated by what I said and tried to interrupt me, but her mother-in-law waved her off. I told her specific details about her late husband that I would not have known otherwise, such as when they first met, where they went on their first date, and memories of their family vacations when my therapist was a child. Needless to say, my therapist, her husband, and her mother-in-law all began to believe in psychic mediumship and the paranormal that night. My therapist never doubted me again, and she suggested that I didn't need an appointment with the psychiatrist because she changed her mind and decided that I didn’t need to see one. Despite these positive reactions I received from my husband, my therapist, and her husband and mother-in-law, I continued to keep my abilities a secret for several years afterward because I was afraid of what other people would think of me.

And this is where the rest of my backstory begins (read it here).
 
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DNB

Christian
Respectfully, Genesis 1 describes God "seeing it was good" 7 times. The last time included all of creation, and described it as "very good". That even includes the beasts of the field, one of which plays a very important role in chapter 3 in eden.

So, I know that you have reasons to see none as good compared to God; but attributing that same negativity to God seems unfounded.
God destroyed all of mankind except for eight people, not to mention that He wanted to destroy His chosen people shortly after they departed Egypt, and several times after.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
To show that love is material, I think more than a brain scan is needed. In order to show it's material, then love would need to behave like other material phenomena. For example: a specific quantity of "love" would need to be measured, and the phenomena resulting from that quantity would need to be predictable. IOW, can someone measure 30 cc's of love and predict how a person will behave after receiveing it? Another example: does love break down over time?

Using this method, many non-material things ( for lack of a better word ) exist. An idea, for instance. Can it be measured physically? Is it predictable? Does it break down over time?
Love is both a brain state and expressed emotion, and these csn be measured occurring in pET and fMRI brain scans. There are even changes to physiological states (heartrate, breathing, blood pressure) when subjects are asked to describe those they love. Very material.

I have no idea what you mean when you say love is immaterial.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Respectfully, Genesis 1 describes God "seeing it was good" 7 times. The last time included all of creation, and described it as "very good". That even includes the beasts of the field, one of which plays a very important role in chapter 3 in eden.
He liked His creation. I'm glad I'm alive and I hope to live forever once this world passes away. I hope to live on the earth, if it is God's will.
The serpent was used by the devil. We don't know exactly how it communicated with Eve because serpents don't talk. So it is figured that the Devil used the serpent somehow to transmit his desire to her.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Respectfully, Genesis 1 describes God "seeing it was good" 7 times. The last time included all of creation, and described it as "very good". That even includes the beasts of the field, one of which plays a very important role in chapter 3 in eden.

So, I know that you have reasons to see none as good compared to God; but attributing that same negativity to God seems unfounded.

As I mentioned in a previous post (see here), I believe the creation story is a myth. I've met a few Christians and other Abrahamic theists who share the same viewpoint as mine. Another member suggested that the story is an allegory about the loss of innocence.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
He liked His creation. I'm glad I'm alive and I hope to live forever once this world passes away. I hope to live on the earth, if it is God's will.
It must be nerve wracking to not be sure.

The serpent was used by the devil.
And did they both end up in Creation? God made them both. Don't you think God knew what they were up to, and would do? If not it was a big gamble God made not preventing them from causing trouble in "paradise". Is it really paradise if there are evil actors causing trouble?

And this is the God you trust to judge your soul?
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
As I mentioned in a previous post (see here), I believe the creation story is a myth. I've met a few Christians and other Abrahamic theists who share the same viewpoint as mine. Another member suggested that the story is an allegory about the loss of innocence.
So, "God saw it was good" repeated 7 times somehow becomes "No one is good in God's eyes" because it's a myth or an alegory?
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
The faculties have to be there for any development to take place - no matter how long we wait, and with all the religious practices exposed in life, animals will never have the capacity to be religious.

Animals have evolved the capacity to be religious, because we're animals.

Side note: just curious, considering how unequivocally that you disagree with me, why do you always rate my posts as 'useful'?

Because they're useful to the discussion and further the discourse, even if I disagree with them.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
To show that love is material, I think more than a brain scan is needed. In order to show it's material, then love would need to behave like other material phenomena. For example: a specific quantity of "love" would need to be measured, and the phenomena resulting from that quantity would need to be predictable. IOW, can someone measure 30 cc's of love and predict how a person will behave after receiveing it? Another example: does love break down over time?

Using this method, many non-material things ( for lack of a better word ) exist. An idea, for instance. Can it be measured physically? Is it predictable? Does it break down over time?

That's not why love is material, though. Love isn't a substance. It's an abstraction of the interplay between various material systems, such as the nervous system and the endocrine system. It can be loosely measured by serotonin levels and brain scans, although we're still developing more precise methods.
 

DNB

Christian
Q: The faculties have to be there for any development to take place - no matter how long we wait, and with all the religious practices exposed in life, animals will never have the capacity to be religious.

A: Animals have evolved the capacity to be religious, because we're animals.
Sorry, I meant non-human animals.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
That's not why love is material, though. Love isn't a substance.
Agreed.
It's an abstraction of the interplay between various material systems, such as the nervous system and the endocrine system. It can be loosely measured by serotonin levels and brain scans, although we're still developing more precise methods.
That would be studying the pleasurable feeling of love. That's naturally going to be material, and it's a rather narrow slice of what love can do. Would you, for instance expect that those same brainscans and serotonin levels to be consistent with a lover scorned? Or perhaps unrequited love. Or perhaps the lovers who are forced to be seperated?
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Agreed.

That would be studying the pleasurable feeling of love. That's naturally going to be material, and it's a rather narrow slice of what love can do. Would you, for instance expect that those same brainscans and serotonin levels to be consistent with a lover scorned? Or perhaps unrequited love. Or perhaps the lovers who are forced to be seperated?

These are great questions for further study in endocrinology, neuroscience, and psychiatry, although I find them rather uninteresting.

Part of the problem becomes the fact that there is no single, distinct type of "love." We use the word "love" to refer to a wide variety of distinct phenomena. That doesn't mean we can't categorize and measure each of these or that love itself isn't material.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
These are great questions for further study in endocrinology, neuroscience, and psychiatry, although I find them rather uninteresting.

Part of the problem becomes the fact that there is no single, distinct type of "love." We use the word "love" to refer to a wide variety of distinct phenomena. That doesn't mean we can't categorize and measure each of these or that love itself isn't material.
But it does mean that brain scans and seritonin levels are not proof that love is material. Those only measure the effects of love. I hear you, and I understand you're uninterested. I won't push further, except to say, that a claim "we are spiritual beings" cannot be so easily hand waved away.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
But it does mean that brain scans and seritonin levels are not proof that love is material.

Yes, it is. It's proof that the relevant type of love to those phenomena is material. The same can be demonstrated for other kinds of love.

Those only measure the effects of love. I hear you, and I understand you're uninterested. I won't push further, except to say, that a claim "we are spiritual beings" cannot be so easily hand waved away.

We can easily hand wave away arguments in support of the claim that "we are spiritual beings" when they're based on a vague Argument from Ignorance about the nature of an intentionally ambiguously defined term which, when forced to be defined in a more specific way, reduces to physical phenomena.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Yes, it is. It's proof that the relevant type of love to those phenomena is material. The same can be demonstrated for other kinds of love.



We can easily hand wave away arguments in support of the claim that "we are spiritual beings" when they're based on a vague Argument from Ignorance about the nature of an intentionally ambiguously defined term which, when forced to be defined in a more specific way, reduces to physical phenomena.
I said I wouldn't push further, so I won't. Perhaps if it is the topic of another thread we can discuss it in more detail.

Best wishes, sincerely,
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sorry, I meant non-human animals.
Other animals likely will experience similar emotions, which would show similar activation areas and tracks in PET scans or fMRI, but they lack the communication and social skills to communicate these and incorporate them into common mythologies or religions.
 
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