Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[DNB]

Sure. The tendency to be superstitious is a human psychological weakness.
We tend to engage in cognition errors like the false positive. It's how people end up believing in nonsense like bigfoot, poltergeists, gods, homeopathy, crystal healings, voodoo, tarrot readings, horoscopes, etc.



Yes. Well... not the big bang theory, but I'll led that dishonest nonsense slide for now. The tendency to engage in such cognition errors is very helpful for survival actually. Which is why most animals - especially those that are prey to another - have these tendencies. Even pigeons.

The classic example of the noise in the bushes. Is it just the wind? Or is it a dangerous predator sneaking up on you?

Those that simply assume it's a predator will run. If it turns out that it was just the wind, then that assumption was a false positive. The individual is not harmed by it, nor is his/her survivability impacted by it.

Those whoever who stick around to "collect more data" to see what the noise is..... if it turns out that it indeed IS a dangerous predator - those individuals are lunch. Their survivability is very much impacted.

Next to the cognition error, such things also gave us a tendency to see the world through egocentric lenses and gave us a tendency to infuse agency in seemingly random things. We assume that the noise is an agent. And not just any agent... but an agent out to get us. So we make it about "us". it could also just be a rabbit looking for food while not caring that we are there. But we assume the noise is about US. We infuse agency and intent into it.

So yes, evolution on this planet produced MANY species with a tendency to engage in such cognition errors, which in turn results in superstitious tendencies.

We seek patterns to nagivate the world. And when we don't find patterns, we just invent them.

Your avatar is repulsive, seriously.

 

[DNB]

Do you know what an ad populum argument is?

It's an utter shame that you clearly don't?!?!?

 

[DNB]

Man has been insecure, and has sought solace, protection or magical benefit for thousands of years. Opiates can be very soothing.
Have you never taken a social or biological science classes?
Apophenia -- perceiving patterns where there are none -- is, or was, a useful survival tactic, as was jumping to unjustified conclusions about possible threats.
This 'aberration' has only recently become destructive -- too recently to have been eliminated from our gene pool.

All belief in fallacies are consequential to one degree or another, obviously.
You should stop taking sciences classes and learn about perception and insight - even wisdom wouldn't hurt.

 

[DNB]

This is unevidenced, faith-based mythology.

Define evidence - or maybe perception.

 

[DNB]

I don't think humans are spiritual creatures. I think humans are natural organisms. Simians, actually. Apes, to be more precise. We evolved from other animals.

Those macroscopic animals that we descended from were the product of the evolution of microscopic life. That microscopic life came to earth by way of abiogenesis, using the chemicals from the planet and maybe some from stray meteors. Both our planet and meteors are made from the left-over dust from nebulas during the formation of stars.

So, actually, yeah. The source of life is stardust.

For crying out flippin' loud, quit being so darrn secular in your insights.
Man is flippin' spiritual, not his anatomy but his inner spirit, obviously. **mod edit**
Don't tell me that all the philosophy, religious, meta-physical, theological works of literature were extrapolated and articulated by flippin' simians?

Logic is pointless with you people - man, having the highest intellect on the planet, will either smoke cigarettes, drink himself to death, or define another man's worth by his skin colour (3 extremely prevalent traits throughout human history) - these are spiritual issues, not ones of intellect or rationale, obviously.
there is clearly an influence upon man that defies his intellect - this is the spiritual warfare.

You can't see evidence for the spirit?, it's flippin' everywhere.

 

[Ella S.]

For crying out flippin' loud, quit being so darrn secular in your insights.

It's been awhile since I've seen an interlocutor use the tactic of asking the other person to change their mind in a debate. I.. I don't think that counts as a valid argument?

Man is flippin' spiritual, not his anatomy but his inner spirit, obviously.

I don't find it that obvious. What's your evidence that we have an inner spirit?

**mod edit**

Don't tell me that all the philosophy, religious, meta-physical, theological works of literature were extrapolated and articulated by flippin' simians?

Yep, it sure was.

Logic is pointless with you people

Well, you haven't even tried logic yet. That's what I've been asking you to do, but you seem to collapse under my application of the logic that I've been formally, academically trained in.

- man, having the highest intellect on the planet, will either smoke cigarettes, drink himself to death, or define another man's worth by his skin colour (3 extremely prevalent traits throughout human history) - these are spiritual issues, not ones of intellect or rationale, obviously.

You keep using "obviously" to assert the truth of your claims without actually backing them up with any evidence. In logic, that's called affirming the consequent, which is a fallacy. It's also probably an Ad Hominem, where you're arguing against my intellectual character rather than supporting any of your claims by implying I must be stupid to not see something so obvious.

It's not obvious. It might seem that way if you've never really thought about it or spoken at length to someone who disagrees with you, though.

there is clearly an influence upon that defies his intellect - this is the spiritual warfare.

I'd say it's hormones secreted by the endocrine system and some neuronal firings, personally, not spiritual warfare.

You can't see evidence for the spirit?, it's flippin' everywhere.

If it's everywhere, then why have you failed to demonstrate even a single piece of it? You're blaming me for your own shortcomings as a debater.

 

[Revoltingest]

My flippin' stars, can't you people stay on topic for even a minute?

I did.
But this has become unproductive.
Chill, dude.
And treat us each as individuals, not as "you people".

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't think humans are spiritual creatures..

We have a conscience .. we are capable of love, and of mercy, and have a sense of justice.

That is not equivalent to a piece of meat.
Trivialising it in that way, is something a person might do in debate, but it is not how we conduct ourselves in life.
We do not live our lives with this trivial thought in our minds.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Humans are spiritual creatures, obviously (that's why there's religions in the world) - spirituality clearly does not come from stardust and protoplasm - the source of life must be a spirit, obviously

Sorry, that is an unwarranted assumption. If it is "obvious" then proper evidence for it should be plentiful.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We have a conscience .. we are capable of love, and of mercy, and have a sense of justice.

That is not equivalent to a piece of meat.
Trivialising it in that way, is something a person might do in debate, but it is not how we conduct ourselves in life.
We do not live our lives with this trivial thought in our minds.

So do many other animals. And once again you are using black and white fallacies. The traits that you are talking about appear to be evolved. Animals do not lack them as so many in the Abrahamic beliefs claim.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You wouldn't know what morality was if it wasn't for a non-secular entity to define it.
My remark was to be taken in context - the Legislator is not above His own laws for the sake of justifying the laws. But, if He choses not to enact a law, then, yes, He is free to do as He sees fit. This is obviously hypothetical for I am referring to His sovereignty more so, than any sense of righteousness, at the moment, obviously.

Another claim that needs evidence. We can see the same traits to a lesser extent in other animals. Are they "spiritual' too?

 

[muhammad_isa]

The traits that you are talking about appear to be evolved. Animals do not lack them as so many in the Abrahamic beliefs claim.

Yes, other creatures have their nature, and also have souls.

..but not like us .. we make power stations, guns and nuclear bombs.
We can also be a humble, pious creature .. or a rebellious, arrogant one.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, other creatures have their nature, and also have souls.

..but not like us .. we make power stations, guns and nuclear bombs.
We can also be a humble, pious creature .. or a rebellious, arrogant one.

Yes, we do have the most developed brains when it comes to tool usage and design. That does not help any God claims.

 

[Ella S.]

We have a conscience .. we are capable of love, and of mercy, and have a sense of justice.

I agree.

That is not equivalent to a piece of meat.

It sure is. Do you need me to find you a brain-scan of love?

Trivialising it in that way, is something a person might do in debate, but it is not how we conduct ourselves in life.
We do not live our lives with this trivial thought in our minds.

Who is "we" and how is their way of life relevant to this discussion?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I don't think humans are spiritual creatures. I think humans are natural organisms. Simians, actually. Apes, to be more precise. We evolved from other animals.

I know your post was intended for another member, but I wanted to comment on your quote above. Personally, I believe that some people are spiritual as a result of having had supernatural experiences, and I am one of them. You rated one of my posts (see here) as "friendly" earlier today, so I assume you're familiar with what I primarily discuss on this forum. I'm not sure if you are aware, though, that I also reject the Bible and a personal belief in the biblical God. There is something else that I would like to say to you, and it is this: I think that you should disregard any rebuttal against your beliefs when you're being talked down to and disrespected by someone who opposes you. As I explained in another post (see here), I don't argue and debate with anyone who opposes my personal beliefs.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Who is "we" and how is their way of life relevant to this discussion?

"we" is the human race..
..or are you claiming that people live their lives thinking "my thoughts are only a piece of meat .. they are no more significant"

 

[Ella S.]

I know your post was intended for another member, but I wanted to comment on your quote above. Personally, I believe that some people are spiritual as a result of having had supernatural experiences, and I am one of them. You rated one of my posts (see here) as "friendly" earlier today, so I assume you're familiar with what I primarily discuss on this forum. I'm not sure if you are aware, though, that I also reject the Bible and a personal belief in the biblical God. There is something else that I would like to say to you, and it is this: I think that you should disregard any rebuttal against your beliefs when you're being talked down to and disrespected by someone who opposes you. As I explained in another post (see here), I don't argue and debate with anyone who opposes my personal beliefs.

I'm familiar with some of your posts and I respect your perspective. Being talked down to and disrespected, especially on the internet, barely emotionally registers with me most of the time. I'm too analytical and focused on the lines of argument themselves. That helps me a lot in poker, although apparently my strategy in poker is considered "card counting" and gets me kicked out of games.

The point where I lose interest in replying is when there's no longer any argumentation, or at least no new points. You can't really continue a discussion with someone who realizes they're losing and shuts down the discourse by falling back on insulting you. I just consider it winning the argument by technicality, at least until @DNB comes up with something better than "obviously I'm right, stupid."

I do appreciate your concern for my cold robot heart, though.

 

[Ella S.]

"we" is the human race..
..or are you claiming that people live their lives thinking "my thoughts are only a piece of meat .. they are no more significant"

Did you just generalize the entire human race as sharing your perspective and approach to life?

There is no way you're not trolling at this point.

 

[DNB]

I'm familiar with some of your posts and I respect your perspective. Being talked down to and disrespected, especially on the internet, barely emotionally registers with me most of the time. I'm too analytical and focused on the lines of argument themselves. That helps me a lot in poker, although apparently my strategy in poker is considered "card counting" and gets me kicked out of games.

The point where I lose interest in replying is when there's no longer any argumentation, or at least no new points. You can't really continue a discussion with someone who realizes they're losing and shuts down the discourse by falling back on insulting you. I just consider it winning the argument by technicality, at least until @DNB comes up with something better than "obviously I'm right, stupid."

I do appreciate your concern for my cold robot heart, though.

So, what do you think about @Sgt. Pepper 's alleged supernatural experience? He appears to be attesting to the supernatural realm, is he therefore suffering from a psychosis (please don't get pedantic about the word), or is there a level of veracity to his claims?

I cannot demonstrate to you a supernatural effect in order to support my position, although I do believe in that realm. So, I therefore make my appeal to man's constitution that is evidenced in his comprehensions, beliefs, desires, and impulses. I feel that you dismiss such a prevalent and predominant symptom in man, as far as his innate propensity and inclination towards religions and theology are concerned.
There are two options: man is either endowed with a spiritual dimension (from a spiritual source), or he is the most misguided, deluded, abnormal and irrational creature on the planet. Again, consider the latter option coupled with the fact that he has the highest intelligence of all living beings on earth.

 

[Ella S.]

So, what do you think about @Sgt. Pepper 's alleged supernatural experience? He appears to be attesting to the supernatural realm, is he therefore suffering from a psychosis (please don't get pedantic about the word), or is there a level of veracity to his claims?

She says she doesn't want to debate it, and I intend to respect that.

I cannot demonstrate to you a supernatural effect in order to support my position, although I do believe in that realm.

Then you do not have evidence to support your claim.

So, I therefore make my appeal to man's constitution that is evidenced in his comprehensions, beliefs, desires, and impulses. I feel that you dismiss such a prevalent and predominant symptom in man, as far as his innate propensity and inclination towards religions and theology are concerned.

I wholly believe that man has an innate inclination towards religion, because our brains are prone to magical thinking, apophenia, and hyperactive agent detection. The issue with that is that these are all irrational processes that we need to cultivate critical thinking skills to combat if we want to have a better approximation of reality.

There are two options: man is either endowed with a spiritual dimension (from a spiritual source), or he is the most misguided, deluded, abnormal and irrational creature on the planet. Again, consider the latter option coupled with the fact that he has the highest intelligence of all living beings on earth.

This is a false dichotomy. The reality of the situation is a lot more nuanced than this simplified black-and-white stance you're taking. We are imperfect products of evolution. When we gain social intelligence, that also comes with cognitive errors like in-group bias as a side-effect.

Rationality isn't innate. It's a learned skill. It has to be crafted with care. Today, we know how to think and learn more efficiently than we did a thousand years ago, thanks in part to the scientific revolution. Man has the potential to be rational, but it is seldom exercised.

 

[DNB]

She says she doesn't want to debate it, and I intend to respect that.



Then you do not have evidence to support your claim.



I wholly believe that man has an innate inclination towards religion, because our brains are prone to magical thinking, apophenia, and hyperactive agent detection. The issue with that is that these are all irrational processes that we need to cultivate critical thinking skills to combat if we want to have a better approximation of reality.



This is a false dichotomy. The reality of the situation is a lot more nuanced than this simplified black-and-white stance you're taking. We are imperfect products of evolution. When we gain social intelligence, that also comes with cognitive errors like in-group bias as a side-effect.

Rationality isn't innate. It's a learned skill. It has to be crafted with care. Today, we know how to think and learn more efficiently than we did a thousand years ago, thanks in part to the scientific revolution. Man has the potential to be rational, but it is seldom exercised.

The faculties have to be there for any development to take place - no matter how long we wait, and with all the religious practices exposed in life, animals will never have the capacity to be religious.

Side note: just curious, considering how unequivocally that you disagree with me, why do you always rate my posts as 'useful'?