Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[DNB]

My lenses are focused & clear as glass.
Perhaps you look thru stained glass patterns, eh.

Yes, when they offer insight into the spiritual or transcendent realm.
Are you unable to see the same things?

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, when they offer insight into the spiritual or transcendent realm.
Are you unable to see the same things?

Perhaps what you believe to be
insight is really just an illusion.
What I see is in my posts.

 

[DNB]

Perhaps what you believe to be
insight is really just an illusion.
What I see is in my posts.

Are you able to explain then, how the landslide majority of people who have ever lived on the earth, have believed in some sort of spiritual entity or another?
i.e. Is it possible that the big-bang theory produced that many delusional humans?

 

[Revoltingest]

Are you able to explain then, how the landslide majority of people who have ever lived on the earth, have believed in some sort of spiritual entity or another?

I already have....but likely before you joined RF.
In short...
The human brain seeks patterns.
The easiest patterns (explanations)
are simple invented ones.
"God" is faster & easier than science.

i.e. Is it possible that the big-bang theory produced that many delusional humans?

I notice the shift...I said "illusion", but you use
"delusion". Tricky.
Pattern recognition, & seeking the easiest path
are useful emergent evolutionary properties.
But they don't always result in cromulence.
There have been many wrong ideas, flat Earth,
Earth centric solar system, miasma-genic disease.
Things aren't correct simply because they were
commonly believed for a long time.

 

[DNB]

I already have....but likely before you joined RF.
In short...
The human brain seeks patterns.
The easiest patterns (explanations) are simple invented ones.

I notice the shift...I said "illusion", but you use "delusion".
Pattern recognition, & seeking the easiest path
are useful emergent evolutionary properties.
But they don't always result in cromulence.
There have been many wrong ideas, flat Earth,
Earth centric solar system, miasma-genic disease.

Billion of of both hours and dollars have been invested in theological degrees, literature, edifices, artifacts, museums, pilgrimages, crusades/wars, honour killings, factions/dissentions, debates, marriages, ordinations, charities, etc...
And you say that it's all been a figment of man's imagination?
Again, how did stardust and protoplasm produce such a profound and destructive aberration in man, but no other creature on this planet?

 

[Revoltingest]

Billion of of both hours and dollars have been invested in theological degrees, literature, edifices, artifacts, museums, pilgrimages, crusades/wars, honour killings, factions/dissentions, debates, marriages, ordinations, charities, etc...
And you say that it's all been a figment of man's imagination?

Yes, all that you described are imagined (IMO).

Again, how did stardust and protoplasm produce such a profound and destructive aberration in man, but no other creature on this planet?

Not all has been destructive.
But humans learn by trial & error...continually,
with much of both. Other animals learn this
way too, but our societies are more complex.

 

[DNB]

Yes, all that you described are imagined (IMO).

Not all has been destructive.
But humans learn by trial & error...continually,
with much of both. Other animals learn this
way too, but our societies are more complex.

I'm sorry, you are offering a very frivolous ascription to a symptom that has dominated man and the world.
Allow me offer a more viable explanation: man is created in the image of God - we are, in the most axiomatic of manners, spiritual creatures - our thoughts and disposition transcend the secular, even our own intellectual capacity - there is an influence upon man that defies pragmatism: he'll destroy himself through vice, he'll assess another man's worth by the colour of his skin, he'll start a war either unprovoked, or over an incidental issue. He'll steal, but not allow anyone to steal from him. Or, he'll help a perfect stranger which he has no vested interest in doing so. He'll risk his life for someone else. etc...

There is a spiritual warfare in the minds of all man. No other creature has this conflict, or will act in the most self-destructive way that man will.

 

[Ella S.]

Au contraire mon frere. It appears that there are various forms of prostitution among some animals. Chimps have their own version of "dinner and a movie":

Chimps Barter for Sex

Capuchin monkeys invented it on their own in an experiment where researchers tried to introduce the concept of money to them:

How scientists taught monkeys the concept of money. Not long after, the first prostitute monkey appeared

And the most shameless of harlots are penguins. They will give it up for pebbles.

You've activated my trap card. My awareness that something similar could exist among some socially developed species is why I qualified my statement with "mostly."

That said, this is intriguing and I appreciate the information. I think I had heard of the bit about penguins, although I had never verified the claim, but the monkeys are new to me.

 

[Ella S.]

Likewise, in regard to your comprehension of morality - which is expected when a Christian debates with a Stoic.

This is an Ad Hominem argument, which is a logical fallacy. You're attacking my character because your position has been demonstrated to be untenable to reason. It's a shame, too, because our discussion was going so well up until this point.

I'm rather used to Christians forfeiting rational discussion partway through a conversation, though. If someone could demonstrate to me that Christianity was actually the most rational conclusion, I would have already converted. It seems that you can't do that and would rather insult me, which is quite typical.

I'm sorry Ella, but your reaction to your hypothetical proposition that 'even if God did exist', shows the irrationality behind your logic. If God did exist, and you, and everything under the sun, were created by Him, what justifiable contention could you possibly have with the way that He governs the universe - He create you and your mind, your feelings and your ability to live, think, hate and love?

I don't believe in God. I was investigating your understanding of justice to see whether it's self-coherent or not. It's quite possible that you do think that it's justifiable to condemn someone to incomprehensible and unending suffering for something completely outside of their control. That goes against the vast majority of people's moral intuitions, so I found it quite unlikely you would affirm this.

It seems that you are unwilling to address the more pertinent parts of the argument I made in that post, which is that the morality you attribute to God isn't an intrinsic property of the universe but is instead a series of rules written down by people. I think it's quite easy to contend with other people's concept of justice. God isn't on trial here because he doesn't exist; only your concept of God is.

If you can really affirm the justice of such a concept, then your approach to morality is clearly degenerate and I can't take it seriously.

Remember that your initial post stated that the evidence for God was so strong that everyone should know he exists and be able to identify his precepts. I think our disagreement here has demonstrated that claim to be baseless. You cannot provide a lick of the evidence you claim to have.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You've activated my trap card. My awareness that something similar could exist among some socially developed species is why I qualified my statement with "mostly."

That said, this is intriguing and I appreciate the information. I think I had heard of the bit about penguins, although I had never verified the claim, but the monkeys are new to me.

Yeah, the researchers involved were a bit horrified that they had effectively invented prostitution.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm sorry, you are offering a very frivolous ascription to a symptom that has dominated man and the world.

So you dismiss my serious response as frivolity, eh.
Then I've nothing to add.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

..so mankind has brought it upon themselves, in effect.

"For the rich man to get to heaven is like the camel passing through the eye of a needle"

We cannot escape our destiny .. the accumulation of wealth attracts us, until we reach the graves.

People living in Tibet with almost no pollution and who don't smoke, get lung cancer too.
It seems the point went completely over your head.

You also conveniently completely ignored the rest of the post, where I clearly stated that SOME cancers are due to pollution and alike while others ARE NOT.
Note also that the effect of the pollution also happens NATURALLY. Like smoke from natural fires or volcano's or what-have-you.

Cancer has existed WAY longer then humans.
We even have dino bones that showed the dino died of bone cancer.

The bigger point here is if a god is / was involved and if cancer is a "punishment" for "sinning".
And the answer to that is clearly "no".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

This Entity is immune to moral standards, obviously

Then that entity is not a moral entity. Rather some kind of psychopath / sociopath instead.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

God is holy, man is a perverse fool - who are you going to send your complaints to?

I'm just going to find comfort in the fact that fortunately none of these horrible myths are actually true.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Are you able to explain then, how the landslide majority of people who have ever lived on the earth, have believed in some sort of spiritual entity or another?

Sure. The tendency to be superstitious is a human psychological weakness.
We tend to engage in cognition errors like the false positive. It's how people end up believing in nonsense like bigfoot, poltergeists, gods, homeopathy, crystal healings, voodoo, tarrot readings, horoscopes, etc.

i.e. Is it possible that the big-bang theory produced that many delusional humans?

Yes. Well... not the big bang theory, but I'll led that dishonest nonsense slide for now. The tendency to engage in such cognition errors is very helpful for survival actually. Which is why most animals - especially those that are prey to another - have these tendencies. Even pigeons.

The classic example of the noise in the bushes. Is it just the wind? Or is it a dangerous predator sneaking up on you?

Those that simply assume it's a predator will run. If it turns out that it was just the wind, then that assumption was a false positive. The individual is not harmed by it, nor is his/her survivability impacted by it.

Those whoever who stick around to "collect more data" to see what the noise is..... if it turns out that it indeed IS a dangerous predator - those individuals are lunch. Their survivability is very much impacted.

Next to the cognition error, such things also gave us a tendency to see the world through egocentric lenses and gave us a tendency to infuse agency in seemingly random things. We assume that the noise is an agent. And not just any agent... but an agent out to get us. So we make it about "us". it could also just be a rabbit looking for food while not caring that we are there. But we assume the noise is about US. We infuse agency and intent into it.

So yes, evolution on this planet produced MANY species with a tendency to engage in such cognition errors, which in turn results in superstitious tendencies.

We seek patterns to nagivate the world. And when we don't find patterns, we just invent them.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Billion of of both hours and dollars have been invested in theological degrees, literature, edifices, artifacts, museums, pilgrimages, crusades/wars, honour killings, factions/dissentions, debates, marriages, ordinations, charities, etc...

And zero progress was made.

And you say that it's all been a figment of man's imagination?

Sure.

Here's an illustration that you even you might understand, as an analogy to your statement above...

Newton. The dude is well known for his work in physics. In reality though, in context of his actual life, his work in physics was just a footnote. He wrote and worked LOADS more in alchemy.
He invested MUCH MUCH MUCH more energy and hours into alchemy then he did into physics.

Surely you agree how alchemy turned out to be just superstitious figments of man's imagination, right?
So.... clearly, it matters not how much money, energy and hours were invested into it.

If it wasn't for his work in physics, nobody would know who Newton was. But physics was NOT his life's work. Not even by a long shot.

Again, how did stardust and protoplasm produce such a profound and destructive aberration in man, but no other creature on this planet?

You are wrong about that.
Other animals are just as superstitious as we humans are.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The bigger point here is if a god is / was involved and if cancer is a "punishment" for "sinning".
And the answer to that is clearly "no".

OK .. I understand what you are saying..

We all have to die of something .. we are mortal creatures.

I do believe that Noah lived for 950 years.
I do believe that life-span is affected by our deeds .. on an individual basis, and collectively too.

..but it is not a competition to see who can live the longest.
The most important thing is our own deeds, particularly at death.

 

[Subduction Zone]

OK .. I understand what you are saying..

We all have to die of something .. we are mortal creatures.

I do believe that Noah lived for 950 years.
I do believe that life-span is affected by our deeds .. on an individual basis, and collectively too.

..but it is not a competition to see who can live the longest.
The most important thing is our own deeds, particularly at death.

Noah was fictional. There never was a global flood.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I do believe that Noah lived for 950 years.

Even though you have no rational reason to do so.
And no, some religious mythology claiming it, is not a rational reason.

I do believe that life-span is affected by our deeds .. on an individual basis, and collectively too.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

For example, when a 12-year old dies in an avalange or from lightning strike or by a tsunami or by a volcano eruption or by meteor impact or leukemia or............................. it's not exactly affected by anything that child did.

Or when a virus like corona or the plague shows its ugly face and starts spreading while killing millions... that's also not affected by anyone's deeds.

Such are indiscriminate deaths by natural causes.

Reality isn't as simple as you would like it to be, it seems.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Noah was fictional. There never was a global flood.

I didn't say that there WAS a global flood.
I don't think that Noah could have gone to his local airport, and fly to some big city somewhere else in the world.
The "world" as far as many people were concerned was their world .. they did not travel far and would not have known.

The Qur'an makes no claim about it being "global", but we do know that Noah lived for 950 years.