Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[Polymath257]

do you think life has a purpose? is there a reason why we exist?

Do you realize those are very different questions?

Yes, there is a reason we exist (I assume you mean human beings). We are the result of sequences of cause and effect that lead to a type of ape increasing in intelligence and using tools and becoming what we call human.

No, that doesn't mean there is a purpose to our lives. Any purpose life has is given to it by us: we get to decide what is and is not important *to us*.

 

[Polymath257]

atheist secular scientism is a religion because it furnishes a moral code stating that there no is no right and wrong and there are no moral absolutes, that anything goes and that the golden rule is that he who has the most gold makes up the rules.

It does no such thing. Secular atheism simply doesn't address the question of morality. Atheism merely deals with the question of the existence or non-existence of a certain type of being (deities) and Secularism merely says that religion isn't a valid way to approah questions in life.

Science deals with facts and how things connect. It also does not deal with morality.

Now, secular *humanism* does, in fact deal with morality, but the answers it gives are NOT the ones you claim. It says that right and wrong are determined by the effects of our actions on people. it says that the goal of morality is to increase human well being, not to please some imaginary creator that has nothing to do with our lives.

atheist secular scientism furnishes cosmological explanations for the origins and the purpose of life, it has its orthodoxy that may not be challenged this being heliocentrism and evolution and it has its priest, prophets and sages like einstein, tesla, neils tyson, richard dawkins and carl sagan etc, also secular scientism furnishes ideas about the perfect messianic future that the scientific class of anointed wise men will be bring us with more advanced technology and depopulation schemes.
secular atheistic scientism is definitely a religion and not some manifestation of more highly "evolved" and "enlightened" minds.

Well, heliocentrism is well established in a number of ways including direct observation. Evolution is also established by looking at actual evidence.

But science says nothing about the purpose of life. The question of the specific origins is still largely open, although a fair amount is known. And unlike religions, our sages are not unquestioned. In fact, the whole point of science is to question answers and require actual evidence for beliefs. Unlike the religious viewpoint, the sages are not assumed to be correct in every detail or even to have done more than made some advances in their specific field. It is *always* possible for some new sage to point out flaws and give evidence that counters what has been believed.

Unlike the religious view, science does not base its ideas on unquestioned faith. Instead, it bases its views on questioned evidence. It realizes that we are all fallible, but that we can also get rid of failed ideas and find new ones that actually fit the facts.

 

[Polymath257]

you don't think public sanitation is necessarily good? what about sanitation in your own home? i don't think it's merely a matter of opinion that some things are offensive, smell bad and are unhealthy.

Yes, public sanitation is a public good. But it isn't the smell that makes something unhealthy: it is the effects of thebacteria, viruses, fungi, and various chemicals on our bodies that determines what is and what is not healthy.

Being offensive is not the same as being unhealthy. Some poisons can smell sweet, but still be deadly. Other things can smell bad but have no ill effects. You are mistaking the appearances for the deeper processes that are far more important. You worry about an image while ignoring the reality.

 

[vulcanlogician]

Do you realize those are very different questions?

Yes, there is a reason we exist (I assume you mean human beings). We are the result of sequences of cause and effect that lead to a type of ape increasing in intelligence and using tools and becoming what we call human.

No, that doesn't mean there is a purpose to our lives. Any purpose life has is given to it by us: we get to decide what is and is not important *to us*.

I think the word "reason" itself is pretty ambiguous and needs to be clarified when used to avoid equivocation.

For example, someone could ask: "What reason was the shovel left outside the tool shed?"

Let's look at two potential answers for that question:

1. I forgot to put it back in the tool shed after using it."
and
2. "I left it outside because I planned on using it in the morning and didn't want to have to dig it all the way out of the tool shed."

Answer number 1 has to do with causality and not intention. In example 1, the shovel is left outside because of a causal event "forgetting." Much like life is explained by the causal events of evolution.

Answer number 2 has to do with intentions and purposes... NOT causality.

In essence, ""What reason was the shovel left outside the tool shed?" are two questions, and because the word "reason" (or in questions "why") have a causal or intentional meaning, it's easy for us to get the two confused.

So when Chis Baron asked: "do you think life has a purpose? is there a reason why we exist?"... it was not only two different questions, but the second question itself is two different questions depending on what is intended by its author.

 

[DNB]

there are natural moral absolutes that have been part of the evolution of social animals. Social animals will cooperate with their group and kill prey, and then share it with others. We see compassion in many animals, and some feel depression and grief with loss.


False. First there are no Gods known to exist. Second, there is no reason to use the Bible as a means to explain human and animal behavior. The reason why atheists will be moral and compassionate is the same reason why many theists are immoral and sociopaths: evolution. As noted social animals, like humans, benefit by being cooperative and empathetic. Early humans would benefit from this. Of course these behaviors would be included in religious lore and rules, as they helped the community survive.



None of this is true. This is just an insult that aims to bolster your bad faith. The irony is that here you are trying to claim atheists are bad and immoral, and here you lie about them to make you you as a religious person seem better. That backfired. This is an example why religion can misinform people with false beliefs and we can't trust their moral judgment. Remember it was Baptists who made up the majority of the Confederate South and their fight to hold slaves. It was Lutherans and Catholics who worked in Nazi concentration camps to kill some 6 million Jews. It was Muslims who flew planes into the World Trade Centers and pentagon. Tell us more about how God leads to moral superiority.


Oh the irony.

Animals are not spiritual creatures, nor can they conceive of morality, empathy, lust or greed, obviously.
Why would you use non-Christian anecdotes to discredit Christianity - did Jesus endorse any single thing that the Confederates, or any other hypocrites or wolves in sheep's clothing, did, obviously not.

Atheists are immoral by definition - conducting themselves in a moral fashion simply for practical reasons is superficial and ignorant - they have no comprehension of the intrinsic righteousness of rectitude and love - even against an aggressor - 'Kill them with kindness' or 'two wrongs do not make a right' are not atheistic sentiments nor proverbs.
No non-human on earth will ever apply such wisdom - were you unaware?

 

[DNB]

Not religious, not affiliated, no- God kind of spiritual. Here are some non-religious definitions of spiritual:

spir·it·u·al
/ˈspirəCH(əw)əl/
Learn to pronounce

adjective

1. 1.
   relating to or affecting the human spirit as opposed to material or physical things.
   "I'm responsible for his spiritual welfare"

spir·it·ed
/ˈspirədəd/
Learn to pronounce

adjective

1. 1.
   full of energy, enthusiasm, and determination.
   "a spirited campaigner for women's rights"
   
   Similar:
   lively, vivacious, vibrant, full of life, vital, animated, high-spirited, sparkling, sprightly, energetic, active, vigorous,dynamic, dashing,enthusiastic, passionate, fiery, courageous
2. 2.
   having a specified character, outlook on life, or mood.
   "he was a warmhearted, generous-spirited man

I use the primary definition(s) of spirit/spiritual, anything that inspires, creates awe, the substance of life, what makes one wake up. For me, science, nature, the ability to invent/create/learn - that is my spiritual place.

Not religious:
Which God? Whose interpretation of God? Religious beliefs are subjective, meaningless, no one agrees on anything.

Spiritual:
The closest there is to truth comes through scientific inquiries. Hope, progress, improved lives, the reason we are able to communicate through computers from comfortable homes - science and engineering - incredibly #blessed# to live in this age of technology created by engineers and scientists.

Your definition of spirituality is incorrect. It more properly means things pertaining to the spirit of man - transcending the secular and the flesh - not being motivated by hedonistic nor superficial things, but things that are holy, edifying, character building, loving, and useful to all.

 

[Joshua Pryce]

And, does this have anything to do with the decline of religious belief?

The origin of morals comes from the good nature of a supreme being, and no atheist can deny or give a reasonable logical answer to that. The best purpose of life is God and the highest standard of goodness within a person comes good a perfect and good conscience, to ability of goodness comes with how far and determined we are in spirit and connecting to God by being in tune with His Spirit. This proves the Holy Spirit exist and that God is a perfectly good God.

 

[sun rise]

@chris baron you attack atheists. My rejoinder is the horror show that is Afghanistan followed by Iran, Saudi Arabia and other so-called Muslim nations. I would a billion times rather live in the company of atheists than in those abominable nations.

As far as I'm concerned, the rulers there are murtād (مرتدّ) (apostates) because they have replaced the central message of Islam with conceptions of their own creation no matter what they call them. Because the Prophet (saw) said: “Allah is kind, and he loves kindness in all matters,”

I see more benevolence (ihsan), compassion (rahmah) and wisdom (hikmah) from atheists than many who call themselves Muslim.

 

[DNB]

Actually, I agree it is innate but IMO it comes to us via genetics/evolution, culture and experience.
Our moral feelings are the result of an evolutionary process, our brains are more developed than other animals. Because of this we are going to have a more developed sense of right and wrong.

I just see evolution explaining our moral feelings/behavior without the need of a supernatural one.

Love and altruism are not genetically transferred, nor is greed, selfishness, hate and bigotries. The latter dispositions defy rationale and pragmatism - they are evil and are derived from the inner most parts of man's heart - the intangible and unquantifiable - having absolutely nothing to do with intellect, again, such self-destructive behaviour defies man's intelligence.

 

[DNB]

Morality can be shaped real world cause and effect, innate empathy, reason, compassion, critical thinking, mutual benefit, rational self interest, etc. in fact such morality is far more useful and genuine than morality formed from arbitrary, irrational, and unsubstantiated superstition. Hans are social animals and civilians require morals and ethics. No hocus pocus required.
Also, belief in god (nothing wrong with that, btw) isn't a prerequisite for finding purpose and meaning.
What you've presented is a dishonest straw man fallacy.

are you unaware of the intrinsic and transcendent nature of morality? Does a racist hate another for practical reasons - is there any rationale in the world to support such logic?
Why would one die, or risk their life for another outside of age or familial reasons?
Why lend money and expect no return, if it wasn't for the sake of goodness and the spiritual joy derived from it?

 

[HonestJoe]

do you think life has a purpose? is there a reason why we exist?

Personally speaking, I don't know. I'm not aware of any reason to assume there is one but there could be one we're not aware of. It does strike me as something of an academic question though, since even if there was some kind of overarching purpose to our existence, would there be anything we could or should do differently as a result?

 

[Father Heathen]

do you think life has a purpose? is there a reason why we exist?

What purpose reason would god and an afterlife exist?

are you unaware of the intrinsic and transcendent nature of morality? Does a racist hate another for practical reasons - is there any rationale in the world to support such logic?
Why would one die, or risk their life for another outside of age or familial reasons?
Why lend money and expect no return, if it wasn't for the sake of goodness and the spiritual joy derived from it?

My post must've went over your head since you're asking again what was already answered. Humans are empathetic creatures help and care for one another because it's their nature. The suggestion that without voodoo people are sociopaths by default is a silly one.

 

[F1fan]

Animals are not spiritual creatures, nor can they conceive of morality, empathy, lust or greed, obviously.

First, humans are a species of animal. Second, there are many other animals that express emotions and feelings. Your obsolete, hardline Abrahamic beliefs are a poor source to understand what is true about the universe.

5 Animals With a Moral Compass

And I suggest that most animals live in synchronicity with nature that most humans do not. Animals have a direct contact with the planet while humans are disconnected with shoes and buildings. So I suggest they have a natural spiritual state of being thasn most humans. Don't confuse a head full of religious dogma as spirituality. That is a common mistake.

Why would you use non-Christian anecdotes to discredit Christianity - did Jesus endorse any single thing that the Confederates, or any other hypocrites or wolves in sheep's clothing, did, obviously not.

Because Christianity is its own worst enemy. It has failed to live up to the ideals many Chriustians claim of it. Evanglelical Christianity is largely a self-serving set of dogmas that end up causing a lot of harm on marginalized groups, and leave believers empty of any empathy.

Atheists are immoral by definition -

False. Here is an examle of you as a Christian causiung harm to a marginalized group. This condemnation isn't true and is heavily biased. Why can't Christianity better inform believers how to be dignified and honest?

On top of that I gave examples of Christians being immoral, namely the Bapists who owned slaves and the Lutherans and Catholics who worked in concentration camps. Explain that.

conducting themselves in a moral fashion simply for practical reasons is superficial and ignorant - they have no comprehension of the intrinsic righteousness of rectitude and love - even against an aggressor - 'Kill them with kindness' or 'two wrongs do not make a right' are not atheistic sentiments nor proverbs.
No non-human on earth will ever apply such wisdom - were you unaware?

What a horrendous expression of judgment, something Jesus taught his followers not to do. You have much work ahead of you.

 

[Nakosis]

Love and altruism are not genetically transferred, nor is greed, selfishness, hate and bigotries. The latter dispositions defy rationale and pragmatism - they are evil and are derived from the inner most parts of man's heart - the intangible and unquantifiable - having absolutely nothing to do with intellect, again, such self-destructive behaviour defies man's intelligence.

Temperament: Temperament refers to the genetic, inborn traits that control how your baby approaches the world. These traits can affect how your little one learns about his or her environment, and how they react to it.
What’s Your Baby’s Personality Type?

Actually, children are born with genetic traits which effect their early development. A "man's heart" is just a romantic way of describing the way we react to the physical chemical stimulation that drives our behavior. This is neither intangible nor unquantifiable but does often overpower our conscious intellectual thinking. Fear/anger that we are caused to feel by these chemicals released into our body cause us to react destructively instead of think through our problems. Love, compassion, joy are feelings we have caused by these chemicals. We can cause their release somewhat by the images/thoughts we hold in our mind but there is no mystery about this. You think about God, you think about love, this triggers the release of pleasurable chemicals into our system. Something in your environment cause you to be afraid and different chemicals causes you to feel and react to the situation differently.

 

[sun rise]

Animals are not spiritual creatures, nor can they conceive of morality, empathy, lust or greed, obviously.

Let’s get right to the point. In Wild Justice, we argue that animals feel empathy for each other, treat one another fairly, cooperate towards common goals, and help each other out of trouble. We argue, in short, that animals have morality. Wild Justice: The Moral Lives of Animals by Marc Bekoff and Jessica Pierce, an excerpt

Atheists are immoral by definition

Not by my definition.

 

[Nakosis]

The origin of morals comes from the good nature of a supreme being, and no atheist can deny or give a reasonable logical answer to that. The best purpose of life is God and the highest standard of goodness within a person comes good a perfect and good conscience, to ability of goodness comes with how far and determined we are in spirit and connecting to God by being in tune with His Spirit. This proves the Holy Spirit exist and that God is a perfectly good God.

Good and bad are feelings. You have a good feeling or you have a bad feeling. Feelings are the result of chemicals released into our body. Without a physical body, we would not have any feelings, good or bad. Being in tune with God is just an emotional state. A release of chemicals into your body caused by your thoughts of God.
"Good" behavior releases chemicals with causes us to feel good.
"Bad" behavior releases chemicals which cause us to feel bad.

This occurs in all humans regardless of the existence of a God.

I won't argue that there wasn't a God that designed all this at the beginning but now, this is all a physical process with no supernatural intervention needed.

 

[Polymath257]

I think the word "reason" itself is pretty ambiguous and needs to be clarified when used to avoid equivocation.

For example, someone could ask: "What reason was the shovel left outside the tool shed?"

Let's look at two potential answers for that question:

1. I forgot to put it back in the tool shed after using it."
and
2. "I left it outside because I planned on using it in the morning and didn't want to have to dig it all the way out of the tool shed."

Answer number 1 has to do with causality and not intention. In example 1, the shovel is left outside because of a causal event "forgetting." Much like life is explained by the causal events of evolution.

Answer number 2 has to do with intentions and purposes... NOT causality.

In essence, ""What reason was the shovel left outside the tool shed?" are two questions, and because the word "reason" (or in questions "why") have a causal or intentional meaning, it's easy for us to get the two confused.

So when Chis Baron asked: "do you think life has a purpose? is there a reason why we exist?"... it was not only two different questions, but the second question itself is two different questions depending on what is intended by its author.

And, in the first, causal interpretation, there is a reason why humans exist. it has to do with the way the east African rift valley developed and the way certain great apes learned how to use tools and language.

In the second, intentional, interpretation, the best available evidence is that there is no 'reason' why humans exist. There is no evidence or even suggestion of evidence that we were the result of deliberate planning on the part of an intelligence.

 

[Ella S.]

you don't think public sanitation is necessarily good? what about sanitation in your own home? i don't think it's merely a matter of opinion that some things are offensive, smell bad and are unhealthy.

I certainly have my own opinions about these. However, if you think the fact that a lot of people share an opinion somehow elevates that opinion to the status of "fact," you're mistaken.

There are several fallacies that line of reasoning demonstrates. The Tu Quoque, for instance, when you try to pass the buck on to me to begin with instead of supporting your own claims. The Argument to the People, when you imply that if most people believe something it must be true. The Naturalistic Fallacy, when you divine "goodness" from what is "unhealthy." And so on.

More pressingly, you're continuing to conflate facts with opinions.

 

[LuisDantas]

Religious belief tends to encourage immoral behavior, at least when belief in an Abrahamic god is emphasized. (Edited tô add: I have previously mistyped "good" bit meant "god").

Atheism is a pretty good ward against that danger.

Proper religious practice may be an even better one, but it takes a bit of luck and wisdom.

 

[DNB]

What purpose reason would god and an afterlife exist?

My post must've went over your head since you're asking again what was already answered. Humans are empathetic creatures help and care for one another because it's their nature. The suggestion that without voodoo people are sociopaths by default is a silly one.

Why do only humans have that nature?