Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[muhammad_isa]

Do you think there would more of a point in a marriage where the husband disregards his wive's wishes, instead?

Possibly..
What happens in a marriage where the two are constantly fighting over things?
A man does not need to disregard his wives wishes, but somebody has to have the final decision.

 

[viole]

Possibly..
What happens in a marriage where the two are constantly fighting over things?
A man does not need to disregard his wives wishes, but somebody has to have the final decision.

Yes, the wife. Agreed?

Ciao

- viole

 

[F1fan]

I do not agree with that view. I accept that I have limitations, and I am very flawed. From observation, all humans are, as is demonstrated.
I do not think more of myself than I ought to. Or think that I know all there is to be known about life, and the result of our actions.
I am the not the measure of what is moral for myself.

I hear believers say this quite a bit, and they disregard thst it is THEM making the decision that their religious framework is true and correct. Believers are still making decisions for themselves, but that decision is to follow some established authority, and whomever it is in leadership of it. Believers insist this is God, but it clearly is other humans. How else does Christianity get fragmented into thousands of different sects from liberal, to moderate, to conservative, to extremist, and all beklieve they have the truth and saved via Jesus' sacrifice. It is theists following other flawed humans that can lead to believers holding immoral positions like bigotry, let they work hard to justify it as sacred when it really just mortals interpreting the Bible in the way they want. This is how Baptists of the Cinfederate States of America could justify slavery. This is why Lutherans and Catholics of Nazi Germany could feel no guilt exterminating Jews as they go home to their famlies at night and enjoy time celebrating Easter and Christmas as Jews are gassed and burned.

If your approach as a Christian was true and reliable we would never have seen your fellow Christians devolve to evil followers of dogma.

Now you might defend your religion by saying that believers are flawed. OK. Why doesn't Christianity help keep believers moral if they can't see their own immorality?

If I judged a distance to be say, 10 meters, and someone took a measuring line, and measured the distance at 8 meters, I would accept the measure of the measuring line, as what is the correct distance.
In the same way, I may have a view based on my own thoughts, ideas, etc. However, I would change that view to fit the measure of what is moral from the measuring line of God's word.

Why assume there is a "God's Word" at all? Why did you decide that is a valid measuring line? Are you aware that many do not regignize the Bibkle and your interpretation as a valid measure? This is why religion is subjective and flawed, and why atheists will not make these assumptions and rely more on facts and data, and a clear head to make moral assessments and judgments.

 

[F1fan]

Possibly..
What happens in a marriage where the two are constantly fighting over things?

Like a husband who treats his wife as property and she has a right to dignity that he doesn't recognize? How about the husband growing up and learning 21st century values. It's not the 8th century any more.

A man does not need to disregard his wives wishes, but somebody has to have the final decision.

Decent men treat their wives with mutual respect. Your attitudes abandon this virtue.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

A man does not need to disregard his wives wishes, but somebody has to have the final decision.

Or the husband and wife could reach a compromise on which they could both agree, just as my husband and I do when we have a disagreement about something and don't see eye to eye. Neither my husband nor I insinuate to the other, "My way or the highway." In our thirty years of marriage, there has never been a situation in which we were unable to find a solution (compromise) that we could both accept and live with. We do our very best to make sure that both of our needs are met and respected. There is no justification for the husband's insistence on "putting his foot down" and ruling the roost.

 

[muhammad_isa]

There is no justification for the husband's insistence on "putting his foot down" and ruling the roost.

..you can believe what you like, as can I.
..and I believe in the Bible and Qur'an as containing wisdom.

 

[F1fan]

..you can believe what you like, as can I.

Except you are a follower, not an independent thinker. So with your "I'm just following orders" attitude you can justify your immoral views.

..and I believe in the Bible and Qur'an as containing wisdom.

Yes, it's what you believe. You could be mistaken, so why rely on old books in the 21st century? Why can't you think for yourself?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I believe in the Bible and Qur'an as containing wisdom.

Do you have a reason for that belief besides faith that it is correct? I'd ask first what wisdom is and how one recognizes it. For me, wisdom is the highest form of knowledge, a word I only use to describe demonstrably correct ideas induced from experience. Learning begins with how the world works, how to anticipate it, and in so doing, how to modulate the palette of affective experiences in a way that maximizes the euphoric colors (pleasant experiences) and minimizes the dysphoric ones. The rules that we discover that accomplish that, which come after a period of trial-and-error - can be called wisdom.

People that rely on those books don't seem particularly happy to me. Are you? I don't mean to be personal and I don't expect answers, but did following that path accomplish that goal for you? Did you apply the rules you read in those books and did they get you to a place you are happy with even if there were no god or afterlife?

You probably look at thing very differently. You're probably assuming that the happiness comes later, after death. If so, perhaps you can call the directions that would get you there wisdom.

My best guess is that you are unhappy, and it's due to a worldview you got from those books and the interpretations of them by others, one that included an attitude toward women that resulted in you being alone now. It's also marginalized and demonized you in the eyes of the majority of people you have shared it with. If death is the end, can you really call that advice wisdom? Does the word have any meaning if you do?

And how do you define and recognize foolishness?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

duplicate post - deleted

 

[muhammad_isa]

Did you apply the rules you read in those books and did they get you to a place you are happy with even if there were no god or afterlife?

Most surely, yes.

It's also marginalized and demonized you in the eyes of the majority of people you have shared it with.

No .. I know plenty of people who respect Christian/Muslim beliefs.

 

[SkepticThinker]

..and how can you be so sure?
Has this "experiment" occurred before in the history of mankind? No.
You merely assume that this artificial way of life will improve things.

It has improved things. For starters, it allows women their own reproductive freedom and autonomy over their own bodies.
It has allowed for greater freedom for women to control their own lives and destinies without having to depend on men for their needs.
It has allowed for greater equality between the sexes.
All of which leads to greater happiness and quality of life for human beings.

Fiddling with nature has a horrible habit of turning against us. Time will tell.
..and perhaps its already telling .. young people do not seem to be sure
what their position in society really is .. women wanting to be men, and men wanting to be women.
What the **** !

I say people can be whatever they want to be, and if they're not hurting anyone, who cares?
I want the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Islam gives women better treatment.

Not the way you've described it.

A married woman is not expected to work.

And you assume women don't want to work because .... ?
Oh, probably because you've never bothered asking women what they want.

..just as in Western society before the pill, the husband is expected to provide for wife and children.


I was breast-fed, myself.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That is not what I observe..
I see a constant barrage of complaints, regardless.

It's human nature .. the grass is always greener...

Yeah, women are just whiners and naggers, amirite?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Not the way you've described it.

As far as I'm concerned, a marriage in which a woman must obey her husband is patriarchal tyranny that should be outright rejected and publicly shunned. And, in my opinion, any woman with the slightest hint of self-respect would never be in a marriage like that where the relationship is more like a master-slave than a loving relationship between a man and a woman that is based on mutual trust and respect. Obviously, there are women who were raised and taught by their religion to be under the thumb of a man and don't know any differently. So, they transition from being under the thumb of their father to being under the thumb of their husband. If there are daughters, then they are raised in the same manner and the cycle of patriarchal tyranny continues and if there are sons, then they are raised to believe that women (and their prospective wives) should be subservient to them. As an advocate for women and children, I've assisted both Christian and former Muslim women (along with their children) in escaping such an oppressive marriage and abusive situation.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If you could only go on an investigation with him, where they manifested themselves!

Or with a poster on here, @Sgt. Pepper .

It would no doubt change your worldview understanding.

Which means that they (the spirits) probably wouldn’t reveal themselves… they wouldn’t want to alter your atheistic worldview. They are content with you claiming there is no God.

Have a good night, my friend.

Fact: whenever complex patterns relaying information have been found, a mind has always been considered its source.

The entire framework of SETI was based on this principle.


Fact: we have found - and continue to find - orders of magnitude more complex patterns relaying information in the genetic code.


But the origin of this…doesn’t need a mind?

Illogical thinking.

Goodnight.

Ohh, the spirits only reveal themselves to people who already believe in them and ignore people who don't. Well, isn't that convenient.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

But there is -- lots of evidence. It's simple chemistry.

Simple?
That’s an extraordinary claim.
If you don’t think so, then please, I’d like you to explain why it’s never been duplicated…why a replicating cell hasn’t been created de novo.

Defend it.

God has only magic, not even a proposed mechanism.

And this is another error, claiming God only has magic. He’s a Builder, an Engineer, a “Creator.” Ecclesiastes 12:1

I know DNA seems incredulously magical, but it is nano-engineering at its best. Displaying purpose and efficiency.

Attributing such marvelous ingenuity to mindless, unguided processes is fantastical thinking to me.

Best wishes.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Ohh, the spirits only reveal themselves to people who already believe in them and ignore people who don't. Well, isn't that convenient.

Did I say “only”? I didn’t say that, did I? I said “probably”.
Going by what Sgt.Pepper said, some skeptics were engaged, and the skeptics that had those experiences changed their outlook.
But Sgt.Pepper didn’t say all the skeptics saw activity.

I did say “probably” the entities wouldn’t interact….they are more than happy keeping you oblivious to their existence!

I explained why, earlier: their manifestation might backfire… you might begin searching to find the True God Jehovah - “although He is not far off from each one of us” (Acts 17:27) - and that’s the last thing these entities want to happen!

Looking to false gods & religions, and believing in unrealities, is fine with them, too.
As long as no one begins searching for Jehovah our Creator, these spirits are gratified.

If you’re going to respond to my posts, then please get my statements right.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Did I say “only”? I didn’t say that, did I? I said “probably”.
Going by what Sgt.Pepper said, some skeptics were engaged, and the skeptics that had those experiences changed their outlook.
But Sgt.Pepper didn’t say all the skeptics saw activity.

I did say “probably” the entities wouldn’t interact….they are more than happy keeping you oblivious to their existence!

I explained why, earlier: their manifestation might backfire… you might begin searching to find the True God Jehovah - “although He is not far off from each one of us” (Acts 17:27) - and that’s the last thing these entities want to happen!

Looking to false gods & religions, and believing in unrealities, is fine with them, too.
As long as no one begins searching for Jehovah our Creator, these spirits are gratified.

If you’re going to respond to my posts, then please get my statements right.

Ohhhh, you meant "probably." Well that changes .... nothing.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Did I say “only”? I didn’t say that, did I? I said “probably”.
Going by what Sgt.Pepper said, some skeptics were engaged, and the skeptics that had those experiences changed their outlook.
But Sgt.Pepper didn’t say all the skeptics saw activity.

What you stated is accurate. There are spirits who are more selective about whom they reveal their presence to.

I did say “probably” the entities wouldn’t interact….they are more than happy keeping you oblivious to their existence!

Yes, some spirits are that way, but others are ready to reach out to the living in an attempt to communicate or even persuade the living to help them.

I explained why, earlier: their manifestation might backfire… you might begin searching to find the True God Jehovah - “although He is not far off from each one of us” (Acts 17:27) - and that’s the last thing these entities want to happen!

I know you genuinely believe that, but based on my broad knowledge of the paranormal and years of experience with it, I believe that you are partially correct. When I've been conversing with human spirits, the majority of the time the God of the Bible has been referenced is when I ask questions in an attempt to gain more knowledge of the spirit world. I have my own beliefs about what is happening in the spiritual world based on my knowledge as a medium and spiritualist, but neither my spirit guides nor the earthbound human spirits I've spoken with have been forthcoming with precise information about what is happening in the spirit realm. On occasion, a spirit has asked me what will happen to them once they cross over or has asked me where God and Jesus are and why they aren't in heaven yet. These spirits are confused because they aren't in heaven, as they believed and expected to be upon death.

As a medium, it can be very distressing for me to meet and speak with the spirits of Christians who are earthbound through no fault of their own. They are scared and confused because they are not in heaven with God and Jesus, where they expected to be after death. Some of these spirits even became angry and insisted that they had been misled into believing the Bible's teaching about what happens to people after they die. I've even met a few of these spirits who were very confused as to why they weren't sleeping in their graves, believing that we were in the end times and they had missed the rapture. To make matters worse, the majority of these human spirits were even more perplexed by the unsettling fact that I, a living person, could see them, hear them, and speak directly to them, such as the spirit of the young girl whom I persuaded to cross over a couple of months ago (click here to read my previous post).

And, as a psychic medium, I have been actively interacting with, communicating with, and convincing spirits to cross over for the past fifteen years, and I believe unequivocally that what the Bible teaches about what happens to people after they die is clearly inaccurate and extremely misleading. I have had a lifetime of experiences as a psychic medium and have had direct contact with earthbound spirits for the past fifteen years, so I have no doubt that what the Bible teaches about the afterlife (particularly Hebrews 9:27) is clearly inaccurate and misleading. To be honest, there isn't a single Christian alive who can convince me that their preferred interpretation or their church's preferred interpretation of the Bible about the afterlife is absolutely correct. A lifetime of firsthand experience as a psychic medium, combined with years of experience as a seasoned paranormal investigator, has clearly taught me otherwise.

Looking to false gods & religions, and believing in unrealities, is fine with them, too.
As long as no one begins searching for Jehovah our Creator, these spirits are gratified.

Once again, I know you believe that, but based on my broad knowledge of the paranormal and years of experience with it, I believe that you are partially correct, as I explained above. In fact, I am quite confident that the vast majority of earthbound human spirits don't care what the living (other than their own living relatives) believe about God or what religion they practice. It is true that there are malevolent nonhuman entities that delight in wreaking havoc on the living and earthbound human spirits, but these entities can be expelled from a property or sent back to the spirit realm. Being a psychic medium and sensitive gives me an advantage against these entities, but they can often be sensed by anyone but should only be banished by mediums or priests. I don't recommend that an inexperienced person attempt to expel these entities, as it could backfire and make the situation worse. It is possible to p*ss off these entities, and they'll come back with a vengeance. It is best for everyone involved if the situation is properly handled by a psychic medium or a priest.

If you’re going to respond to my posts, then please get my statements right.

If you want to learn more about and understand the paranormal better, I recommend that you include paranormal sources that aren't religiously based.

 

[nPeace]

I believe that the rational ethics of humanism are superior to received ethics. For example, with the received ethics of Christianity comes homophobia, atheophobia, misogyny, and anti-intellectualism. Rational ethics rejects all of that.

I don't think atheists have thought this through.
Consider that there are those things that are "homophobia, atheophobia, misogyny, and anti-intellectualism" for you.
Give me an example of all four of these in Christianity, and I will demonstrate it to you.

We can each make those decisions. We begin with a moral intuition and then set to determine which rules and habits support it, tweaking as we go along by trial-and-error

We begin with a moral intuition? From where?
Can I have a demonstration? Begin now... Or have you already begun?

A disinterested reader will be more objective than a motivated reasoner, who is not only trying to understand what his scriptures are saying, but to make it make moral and intellectual sense by modern standards. We've come a long way since biblical times, and not surprisingly, much of what is written has been updated. We now understand that slavery, for example, is immoral. And so the motivated Bible reader sets out to explain how scripture really means something else closer to modern sensibilities.

I think what we understand is man's double standards.
Not only his double standards, but his inability to make decisions based on any moral ground, since he is stuck at trial and error.
trial > error
^________|
error < trial

Not everyone is blind to these double standards.
Penal labour
Slavery in the 21st century

By the way, please give an example of how "the motivated Bible reader sets out to explain how scripture really means something else closer to modern sensibilities".

I wrote, "I am the measure of what is moral for myself just as you are for yourself." That is not saying that I don't have limitations, although I don't consider my thinking "very flawed," and I don't defer to the thinking of others when making moral judgments, most of whom aren't rational ethicists.

You might think less of yourself than you ought to. Christianity is about submission, about subordinating the will to the dicta of others. Look at the language used - trying to play god for thinking for yourself. 'Thy will be done,' not mine. 'You are the potter and I am the clay.' My tradition is different. It encourages autonomy, self-actualization (being the clay *and* the potter), courage, education, initiative, and leadership

When I learn what's wrong from God's point of view - that is, from God's word, I say thank you very much for directing my path... directing me in the way I ought to go.
I value scriptures such as Isaiah 48:17, 18
...“I, Jehovah, am your God,
The One teaching you to benefit yourself,
The One guiding you in the way you should walk.
If only you would pay attention to my commandments!
Then your peace would become just like a river
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

...and Proverbs 3:5
Trust in Jehovah with all your heart,
And do not rely on your own understanding.

...as well as Proverbs 14:12, which says, There exists a way that is upright before a man, but the ways of death are the end of it afterward.

I know these are no empty words, but they mean life, and I have tasted the truthfulness of them.

What corner? It's due to recognition that my conscience is and has been a reliable guide to behavior conducive to effecting desirable outcomes. And I'm proud to have chosen that chose that path. I consider it an achievement.

Do you accept that the Christian's Bible trained conscience is and has been a reliable guide to behavior conducive to effecting desirable outcomes. And they are proud to have chosen that path which they consider an achievement?

Adultery is not something I want to engage in. My wife expects fidelity, and it is no sacrifice being faithful to her. It's not the sex per se that I would find immoral, but rather, the betrayal.

Your conscience guides you in that, I suppose.

Regarding others committing adultery, that's their business.

What if their conscience guides them in that?
Do you consider adultery immoral, is what I am asking.