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Does atheism lead to socialism?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
In the UK it is often said the Labour Party owes more to Methodism than Marxism.

My family come from a small Welsh mining village and it is easy to see that the socialism of my grandfather and father came from chapel.
The UK's history is replete with religious socialists and proto-socialists.

"When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?"
was not exactly an atheistic slogan, but it was very much one that condemned class structure.

And then you have these folks, whose socialism was based on a literalist, fundamentalist reading of the Bible:

Diggers - Wikipedia
 

Lars

Member
You're wrong.
This atheist loathes the idea of giving government such
control over us. Does the church really challenge the state?
I see an unholy alliance between them.
Middle ages was a interesting time, when King and priesthood was basically working side by side.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Because if you dont have religious or alternative institutions to challenge the state. Then it essentially leads to the state getting full governship. And you rely more on state basis principles. Or am i wrong?

Why do you think you need to belong to a religious organization to challenge the state?
In the US we have our legal system in which anyone can challenge the state.

Secularism tends to keep religion out of state affairs and vice versa for the most part.

I suppose some may feel the need to give someone else authority over their life. Absent God, I guess these type need the security of big government.

Myself, I'm not looking for anyone to have authority over my life. The lessor the better anyway.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Socialism:

public schools
public hospitals
public parks
public beaches
public transit
public roads
public sidewalks
public libraries etc etc etc

Who is opposed to these things?

7FF2D5A5-8CA4-469E-A9D5-56358DC6D294.jpeg
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Socialism:

public schools
public hospitals
public parks
public beaches
public transit
public roads
public sidewalks
public libraries etc etc etc

Who is opposed to these things?
Socialism is the people (ie, the government) owning the
means of production. It's the elimination of capitalism &
individual initiative. It's the flowering of authoritarianism
& economic lethargy with occasional famine.
It is not the mere existence of public roads & libraries.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Because if you dont have religious or alternative institutions to challenge the state. Then it essentially leads to the state getting full governship. And you rely more on state basis principles. Or am i wrong?

I don't believe there is any necessary connection between what is, fundamentally, a philosophical contention - that no invisible, immaterial and transcendent divine being(s), or anything supernatural, exists - and one's beliefs about the right ordering of the state or economy.

Atheists, just like theists, obviously espouse all manner of political beliefs - from libertarianism and economic liberal values, to anarcho-syndicalism and socialist ideologies.

For what it's worth, I actually happen to define myself as a kind of Christian democratic socialist - and this is rooted in my understanding of Catholic Social Doctrine. My church does not dole out concrete proposals / technical solutions (except as suggestions to guide implementation of the social teaching) because it is the role of the laity to internalize and concretize these social doctrines according to the formation of our consciences in the voting booth, but Her social doctrine has many affinities with conventionally 'left-wing' economic theories in the secular sphere.

As the late Pope Benedict XVI once noted of British Catholicism, in terms of the political affiliation of most Catholics, traditionally, over here with our Labour Party:


Europe and Its Discontents by Benedict XVI | Articles | First Things


Democratic socialism managed to fit within the two existing models as a welcome counterweight to the radical liberal positions, which it developed and corrected. It also managed to appeal to various denominations.

In England it became the political party of the Catholics, who had never felt at home among either the Protestant conservatives or the liberals. In Wilhelmine Germany, too, Catholic groups felt closer to democratic socialism than to the rigidly Prussian and Protestant conservative forces.

In many respects, democratic socialism was and is close to Catholic social doctrine and has in any case made a remarkable contribution to the formation of a social consciousness.
 

Lars

Member
Middle ages? It's still going on.
Yeah but the king is in modern time a figurehead. I live in Norway and i like the speeches king gives at new years each year. Its more under constitutional monarchy, the only power the king of Norway has is he can say no if there is some law he doesnt like from what i know if its suggested or something. But the king doesnt have political power basically.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Socialism is the people (ie, the government) owning the
means of production. It's the elimination of capitalism &
individual initiative. It's the flowering of authoritarianism
& economic lethargy with occasional famine.
It is not the mere existence of public roads & libraries.
A balance of socialism and capitalism is not a problem. Socialism is not about owning all the means of production, that would be an extreme example of socialism.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
The question makes zero sense. Sounds like someone desperately attempting to tie two of their boogeymen together. There are many atheists who are also capitalists. Also, the teachings and examples of Jesus would be considered socialism today.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
A balance of socialism and capitalism is not a problem. Socialism is not about owning all the means of production, that would be an extreme example of socialism.
The people owning the means of production is the very
definition of socialism. Roads, libraries, sidewalks, etc
are not the means of production. We can have capitalism
with all the social benefits. This is better than socialism.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Middle ages was a interesting time, when King and priesthood was basically working side by side.

I wouldn't say that's an accurate, or at least fully accurate, description of medieval politics.

For a start, you're overlooking the most important church - state relations event that effectively birthed the entire medieval socio-political order in the first place: the Investiture Contest between the papacy and supporting clergy, on the one hand, and the Holy Roman Emperor. The entire debacle was about the freedom of the Church from state control:


Libertas ecclesiae - Wikipedia

Libertas ecclesiae ("freedom of the Church" in Latin) is the notion of freedom of religion of ecclesiastical authority of the Catholic Church from secular or the temporal power, which guided the Reform beginning in the 11th century.


And then there's this to consider as well:


Can Church Influence Explain Western Individualism? Comment on “The Church, Intensive Kinship, and Global Psychological Variation,” by Jonathan F. Schulz et al. – The Occidental Observer


Church policies directed against the power of secular elites focused on marriage as an essential battleground, including, besides rules on incestuous marriage, developing ideologies and enforcing social controls supporting monogamy.

Particularly important was enforcing consent as the basis of marriage. Consent in marriage promotes individualist marriage choice based on the characteristics of spouse rather than family strategizing in which one’s spouse is determined by parents, with the result that “the family, the tribe, the clan, were subordinated to the individual. If one wanted to marry enough, one could choose one’s own mate and the Church would vindicate one’s choice.[15]

The Church also developed ideologies of moral egalitarianism and moral universalism that undermined the ideology of natural hierarchy typical of the ancient world, and often encouraged the emerging cities as independent power centers opposed to the interests of feudal lords.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
This is a fascinating idea, especially given the long and almost universal historical phenomenon of churches supporting authoritarian governments in exchange for reciprocal government support. The "divine right of kings" was preached in Europe, and the monarchies in turn supported the Church with their purse and patronage.

Actually, Catholic doctrine condemned the concept of the 'divine right of kings' when it emerged following the Protestant Reformation (conceived particularly by Anglicans, as a theological justification for national churches not in communion with the papacy).

The notion that churches universally buck-up authoritarian regimes, would have been news to many medieval Catholic theologians, most notably John of Salisbury (d. 1180) Jean Petit (d. 1411), and the Jesuits St. Robert Bellarmine and Suarez (d. 1617); and Protestants such as Luther, Melanchthon, Zwingli, and Calvin, all who supported resistance to arbitrary authority in defence of natural rights. St. Thomas Aquinas gave the most substantial argument, going so far as to conclude, "He who kills a tyrant to free his country is praised and rewarded" (In 2 Sentences, 44.2.2).

St. Robert Bellarmine (1542 – 1621), Doctor and Cardinal of the Church, tells us in chapters 3-6 of his De Laicis:


De Laicis — Saint Robert Bellarmine’s Treatise on Civil Government


"Individual forms of government in specific instances derive from the law of nations, not from the natural law, for, as is evident, it depends on the consent of the people to decide whether kings, or consuls, or other magistrates are to be established in authority over them; and, if there be legitimate cause, the people can change a kingdom into an aristocracy, or an aristocracy into a democracy, and vice versa..."


If the state infringes natural, inviolable rights - the Christian tradition mandates conscientious civil disobedience (passive, unless violence is unavoidable in self-defence), gathering in 'associations' (i.e. campaigns, trade unions) contrary to the unjust law, and even regime change (i.e. from kingdom to democracy).

It was on this basis that the later Jesuit theologians of the seventeenth century, with explicit papal sanction, contested the Anglican theory promoted by Filmer of the "divine right of kings" as heresy:

Francisco Suárez - Wikipedia


Francisco Suárez (5 January 1548 – 25 September 1617) was a Spanish Jesuit priest, philosopher and theologian, one of the leading figures of the School of Salamanca movement...

Suárez denies the patriarchal theory of government and the divine right of kings founded upon it, doctrines popular at that time in England and to some extent on the Continent...When a political society is formed, the authority of the state is not of divine but of human origin; therefore, its nature is chosen by the people involved, and their natural legislative power is given to the ruler.[11] Because they gave this power, they have the right to take it back and to revolt against a ruler, only if the ruler behaves badly towards them, and they must act moderately and justly...If a government is imposed on people, on the other hand, they have the right to defend themselves by revolting against it and even kill the tyrannical ruler.[12]

In 1613, at the instigation of Pope Paul V, Suárez wrote a treatise dedicated to the Christian princes of Europe, entitled Defensio catholicae fidei contra anglicanae sectae errores("Defense of the Universal Catholic Faith Against the Errors of the Anglican Sect").[16] This was directed against the oath of allegiance which James I required from his subjects.


Suárez, Francisco | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (utm.edu)


Francisco Suárez (1548—1617)


Sometimes called the "Eminent Doctor" after Pope Paul V’s designation of him as doctor eximius et pius, Francisco Suárez was the leading theological and philosophical light of Spain’s Golden Age....

His Defensio fidei, published in 1613, defended a theory of political power that was widely perceived to undermine any monarch's absolute right to rule. He explicitly permitted tyrannicide and argued that even monarchs who come to power legitimately can become tyrants and thereby lose their authority. Such views led to the book being publically burned in London and Paris...

One could hold the view that what gives some individuals political power over other people is that God bestowed such authority on them directly. Suárez rejects that view. He insists that men are by nature free and subject to no one (DL 3.1.1)...
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
Because if you dont have religious or alternative institutions to challenge the state. Then it essentially leads to the state getting full governship. And you rely more on state basis principles. Or am i wrong?

You should look up Libertarian Socialism, which is anti-authoritarian in nature. So your view of socialism is wrong.

Most religions also don't challenge the state, but exist to reinforce it and maintain the desired social order of the state.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yeah but the king is in modern time a figurehead. I live in Norway and i like the speeches king gives at new years each year. Its more under constitutional monarchy, the only power the king of Norway has is he can say no if there is some law he doesnt like from what i know if its suggested or something. But the king doesnt have political power basically.
I was thinking of the world as a whole, not just Norway.
 
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