Does believing, thinking or feeling something is true actually make it true?

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The defintion is not a fact. It is a definition. It is not a fact that a person with XY chromosomes is a male, because you can give no evidence for that. You do know what evidence is, right?

Yes it is, that is how we defined the term. I can show you that is how we defined the term and use it in science and everyday life.

Is it a fact that standard acceleration of gravity (freefall) is measured at 9.80665 m/s^2 on earth? Is this not a fact because meters and seconds are just made up definitions?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes it is, that is how we defined the term. I can show you that is how we defined the term and use it in science and everyday life.

Is it a fact that standard acceleration of gravity (freefall) is measured at 9.80665 m/s^2 on earth? Is this not a fact because meters and seconds are just made up definitions?

Take #2: the bold one is not a defintion.

Yeah, now pick up your man-meter and calibrate it to measure in man as an objective international measurement standard.

Here is the defintion of defintion: a statement of the exact meaning of a word, especially in a dictionary.
Here for fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.

The one is about meaning, the other is about truth or if you like evidence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Your evidence isnt convincing. You think it is. You think because the entire medical, biological, psychological, social and anthropologic disciplines agree with you then rn you must be right. Consensus doesn't make something true.

Well, let's see. People from multiple different fields of research, who study this stuff for a living, produce evidence and arguments that all point to the same things about sex and gender. We even have people telling us about their very real experience that their gender doesn't match their biology.

Then we have some random dude on the internet saying "nuh uh. I don't buy that. It's just feelings and those don't matter.."

Hmm. who to go with on this ......

Tough call for sure. But I'm gonna go with the people who know what they're talking about.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Take #2: the bold one is not a defintion.

The units are which I pointed out in my response.

Yeah, now pick up your man-meter and calibrate it to measure in man as an objective international measurement standard.

Here is the defintion of defintion: a statement of the exact meaning of a word, especially in a dictionary.
Here for fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.

The one is about meaning, the other is about truth or if you like evidence.

I am not talking about the meaning of the word. I only said we use male to refer to XY humans and female to refer to XX humans. This is all I am claiming is true at this point. Is this true?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The units are which I pointed out in my response.

I am not talking about the meaning of the word. I only said we use male to refer to XY humans and female to refer to XX humans. This is all I am claiming is true at this point. Is this true?

Yeah, they are a measurement in part: 9.80665 m/s^2 That is not just units, it is also a measurement. Where as man is not a measuremnt in the sense sense.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Yeah, they are a measurement in part: 9.80665 m/s^2 That is not just units, it is also a measurement. Where as man is not a measuremnt in the sense sense.

Not my point but ok.

 

[Alien826]

It seems like saying I feel like a man is just as acceptable as saying I feel like a duck. As a man, I don't know what it feels like to be a man I don't think I am a man because I feel like it.

How did "acceptable" get into it? That's a different matter altogether.

I would say that the "duck" feelings, if genuine, would be as valid as the "man" feelings in the sense that that's how the person actually feels. I wouldn't recommend body modification in that case though. Feathers and beak might be OK, but he's never going to fly because of the power/weight ratio.

And I didn't say that I don't know how it feels to be a man. I do. It's just something that is difficult to put into words.

I will agree that feeling like a woman won't alter my body parts, if that's what you are getting at, but that's obvious. I truly feel that what you and others may be getting at is that you don't accept the different usage of the word "gender" that has emerged to address gender dysphoria.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

How did "acceptable" get into it? That's a different matter altogether.

I would say that the "duck" feelings, if genuine, would be as valid as the "man" feelings in the sense that that's how the person actually feels. I wouldn't recommend body modification in that case though. Feathers and beak might be OK, but he's never going to fly because of the power/weight ratio.

And I didn't say that I don't know how it feels to be a man. I do. It's just something that is difficult to put into words.

I will agree that feeling like a woman won't alter my body parts, if that's what you are getting at, but that's obvious. I truly feel that what you and others may be getting at is that you don't accept the different usage of the word "gender" that has emerged to address gender dysphoria.

I am getting at how does someone know they are a certain gender or not. You admit here that it is difficult to put into words. But when I am feeling sad or happy I can describe to you how I feel and why I know I am sad or happy as they are used.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I am getting at how does someone know they are a certain gender or not. You admit here that it is difficult to put into words. But when I am feeling sad or happy I can describe to you how I feel and why I know I am sad or happy as they are used.

Why not ask someone who is experiencing it?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Why not ask someone who is experiencing it?

I experience it right? I am a man, but I have no idea how a man is supposed to feel. I know I am a man based on physical characteristics making an assumption I have XY chromosomes and not based on feelings.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I experience it right? I am a man, but I have no idea how a man is supposed to feel. I know I am a man based on physical characteristics making an assumption I have XY chromosomes and not based on feelings.

I don't know how or if you experience it. Only you know that. Hence the reason I invited you to ask someone who is having the experience of identifying with a gender that may not match their biological sex.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I experience it right? I am a man, but I have no idea how a man is supposed to feel. I know I am a man based on physical characteristics making an assumption I have XY chromosomes and not based on feelings.

Well, you have answered the main thread question:
Does believing, thinking or feeling something is true actually make it true?
You think that having XY chromosomes makes you a man, as it is not based on external sensory experince but internal thinknig.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't know how or if you experience it. Only you know that. Hence the reason I invited you to ask someone who is having the experience of identifying with a gender that may not match their biological sex.

Yup. We'll tell you. You might not understand (and to be blunt, you probably won't - it is one of those things that must be experienced to truly be understood), but we'll tell you. And those stories will differ amongst individuals too. Individuals are individual like that.

 

[Kathryn]

Oh good grief.

 

[Revoltingest]

In recent discussions about gender identity it was said that gender identity is validated by what the person believes, thinks and feels. Fine. The follow question was then posted: Is someone with a penis who believes, thinks and feels that they are woman, actually a woman? The common response was, it's not a yes or no question. Is that true? If a person said they believe, think and feel that they are a frog mean they are actually a frog? Could we not say to that person you are an amphibian?

The titular question has no simple yes / no answer.
There is a fundamental difference between your 2 alternative beliefs....
1) One feels a gender identity that differs from one's sexual appearance.
2) A human believes they're a frog.

#1 is a claim about one's own mental state.
It is very possibly accurate.
A mental state isn't readily observable to another person.

#2 is a claim about being a completely different order
(more different even than species). This is objectively
observable to be false.

 

[McBell]

The titular question has no simple yes / no answer.
There is a fundamental difference between your 2 alternative beliefs....
1) One feels a gender identity that differs from one's sexual appearance.
2) A human believes they're a frog.

#1 is a claim about one's own mental state.
It is very possibly accurate.
A mental state isn't readily observable to another person.

#2 is a claim about being a completely different order
(more different even than species). This is objectively
observable to be false.

I don't know...
If they insisted that they are a frog and demanded to treated like a frog...
How upset will they bee if their legs get cut off and cooked up?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Oh good grief.

Which post is that directed at, I would like to know.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I experience it right? I am a man, but I have no idea how a man is supposed to feel. I know I am a man based on physical characteristics making an assumption I have XY chromosomes and not based on feelings.

Take #2:
The question is if that experince is about sometihng internal or external. Or if that which you know, is subjective or objective. Unless you can show it to be external and objective, I will go with this explanation of gender identity:
Kønsidentitet er det enkelte individs indre følelse og oplevelse af sit køn.
Google: Gender identity is the individual's inner feeling and experience of their gender.

Kønsidentitet

For nogle mennesker vil kønsidentitet være forskellig fra det fødselstildelte køn.

www.sst.dk

 

[Kathryn]

Which post is that directed at, I would like to know.

Not going back through the entire thread or even the last few posts or pages but let's just say basically all of them. Which is why I didn't tag anyone.

 

[Alien826]

Yup. We'll tell you. You might not understand (and to be blunt, you probably won't - it is one of those things that must be experienced to truly be understood), but we'll tell you. And those stories will differ amongst individuals too. Individuals are individual like that.

Well said.

My attitude towards gay men changed dramatically when I had a gay friend through whom I got to know a lot more. The point was not that I understood how they felt, though that was a factor, but that I came to realize that they are just people with a different sexual orientation from me. Some nice, some not so nice, but all with lives that in other areas were very similar to my own.

Now, I would love to get to know a trans person and experience the same thing. Yes, it would be interesting to have them describe their feelings, if they were inclined to share them, but mainly I suspect to simply get to know how we have shared experiences of life. And I don't think telling them that they are not really trans would be at all helpful.

To sum up, in my experience prejudice is best combated by actually getting to know people.