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Does Buddhism prohibit drugs?

apophenia

Well-Known Member
Besides, if someone is stoned when they think they've reach enlightenment then how can they really know it actually happened?

If they wake up the next day and they're still enlightened, then that's that. There would be no concern about 'what actually happened'.

Exactly the same as if they were sober. How would you know if you've reached enlightenment ? Certainly if you were still asking yourself the question, then obviously no, you wouldn't have.

Stoned, sober, dreaming, awake - whatever. Nirvana is beyond concepts and transient states. And therefore beyond mind-affecting drugs.

Otherwise it makes as much sense to suggest that nirvana is impossible if you are wearing shoes, or not lined up with the earth's magnetic field, or some other set of conditions.

If someone thinks that drugs can 'prevent nirvana', they must be asserting that nirvana is a specific brainstate. Not really what Gautama was suggesting.

Curiously enough,it is exactly the same proposition as that made by 'psychedelic zealots' who insist that nirvana is a specific brainstate.

Go figure :shrug:
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
The etymology you gave clearly specified that only alcohol is being mentioned, the fifth precept says "distilled and fermented drinks causing heedlessness", it doesnt say anything about 'drugs' in general
You're seeing only what you wish to see. I vow not to drink wine, spirits, intoxicating drink, or anything else that causes carelessness (IOW, through intoxication).

Anything which causes carelessness is to be avoided in the Middle Way.
Besides, "don't drink alcohol, but drugs are ok!" is an absolutely foolish position to hold.

Pamādaṭṭhānā; causes carelessness.
Pamāda: carelessness, negligence, indolence, remissness.

Anything which causes you to become lax, lazy, in a stupor, forget what you were doing, etc, is covered through that word.

Surā-meraya-majja-pamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi
Surā, meraya, majja, carelessness causing [are] prohibited: [this] precept I undertake [to follow].


it seems like modern buddhists are reading something into the ancient texts which isnt there, the suttas never mention any prohibition on drugs. The concept of 'alcoholic drink' from buddhist texts is being mistranslated to create a nonexistent drug prohibition
It sounds like you've decided for yourself. Your choice, but the Pāḷi is clear on this; to use it is to be in violation to the Fifth Precept.

Even if the ancient texts do not mention them explicitly (how do you know? Have you read them all?), their discouragement go in the same vein as the abstinence from surā, meraya and majja.
 

Nyingjé Tso

Dharma not drama
Vanakkam,

I don't get it, you ask questions to buddhists, buddhists answers you. What's the matter ? Doesn't like the answer ? But it is here, you got the answer. Should you agree or not with it, this is the answer. I know a man who met many lamas and monks from Tibet to Thailands, none were using, promoting, drugs. None. Since Odion and others gave an answer according to Buddhist scriptures, I'll tend to believe them.
But if the answer doesn't fit you, well you can't change it. Seeing the religion you stated in your profile, I guess nothing anyone can answer about this will change your "I want the answer to be yes" state of mind.

If you are looking for a religion that use/promote drugs, then I kindly suggest you to look elsewhere the Dharmic religions. There are rules, teachings, you can't change them.


Aum Namah Shivaya
 

maxfreakout

Active Member
Well, besides forms of alcohol, the only other "drugs" that I imagine were available in the area were datura, opium and ganja.

there would have been hundreds of plant-based 'intoxicants' available to the Buddha, including psilocybin mushrooms and morning glorys
 

maxfreakout

Active Member
I know a man who met many lamas and monks from Tibet to Thailands, none were using, promoting, drugs. None.

i am aware that modern buddhism generally follows the anti-drugs paradigm, i am asking about buddhism as it was originally conceived in the time of the Buddha. This thread clearly demonstrates that there is a very strong tendency to project modern anti-drugs sentiments backwards in history, and assume that early buddhism had the same anti-drugs bias as modern buddhism does, I am questioning whether that projection is accurate, by asking if the early buddhist scriptures mention drugs other than alcoholic drinks.

When people are asked to justify their belief that early buddhism was antidrugs, they only ever fall back on the same 2 arguments:
1. the fifth precept which is clearly only about alcohol (distilled and fermented drinks causing heedlessness = alcoholic drinks causing drunkenness, no other drugs are distilled or fermented besides alcoholic drinks), and other parts of buddhist scripture that dont mention drugs.
2. modern era buddhism is anti drugs, therefore early buddhism must have been (= projection)


Since Odion and others gave an answer according to Buddhist scriptures, I'll tend to believe them.

the pali quotes that have been posted in this thread do not mention any drugs besides alcohol, are there any which do?

If you are looking for a religion that use/promote drugs, then I kindly suggest you to look elsewhere the Dharmic religions. There are rules, teachings, you can't change them.

Hinduism very explicitly promotes the use of psychoactive drugs, for example by depicting Indra consuming a psychoactive beverage (soma) in their mythology. Buddhism isnt so clear on the issue of drugs, so it is an important thing to discuss and clarify.
 
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SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
If they wake up the next day and they're still enlightened, then that's that. There would be no concern about 'what actually happened'.


Basically this. ^

It's not what is happening when on something.
It is what is seen/taken/maintained when not on something.

This is what I mean about the door being opened,
but us having to still do work.

The drug doesn't take you there.
Rather just gives you a look around with expanded vision, or whatever you'd like to call it.

If you aren't able to soberly find again what you've seen while on something....
Well then.... that's playing a joke on yourself, I agree.
 

maxfreakout

Active Member
The drug doesn't take you there.
Rather just gives you a look around with expanded vision, or whatever you'd like to call it.


the drug causes a temporary altered state of consciousness, but sometimes that temporary experience of altered consciousness can cause a total shift in the way a person understands life after they sober up and return to the ordinary state of consciousness
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
I am not going to breech the rules here and say much more about usage/not usage.
I can only pretend to be talking about something else for so long before it becomes glaringly obvious.

So tread lightly in this talk my friend. And re-read the rules if you are not sure what I mean.



But truly I wonder and must ask, how many prohibitionists of mind-altering substances,
in particular the ones that some societies have outlawed,
have actually tried them.....?

Furthermore worked with them as tools in anyway?
 

Nyingjé Tso

Dharma not drama
Hinduism very explicitly promotes the use of psychoactive drugs, for example by depicting Indra consuming a psychoactive beverage (soma) in their mythology.


We already talk about this in another topic, and seriously, I don't know why you still climb to this idea while almost most of the hindu here plus the hindu scripture invalidate your "soma is drug and cow is sacred because a mushroom get high gods" or whatever.

And to support this idea, I think I remember you quoted a book from a neo-whatever-researcher that, to be honest, isn't a reference at ALL. He said that soma is a drug and hindu/gods/bouddhists/whatever get high on cow mushrooms ? Quote me A SINGLE VERSE of valid Buddhist/Hindu scripture that support that.

Some translate as nectar, read a little about the Vedas, or Hindu scripture, and tell me where is it written as psychoactive beverage.

Quote me a single sutra that glorify the use of drugs.

Quote me valid Hindu/Buddhist scriptures to support your claims, not any pseudo-new-age-high-searcher that obviously have no knowledge of Buddhist/Hindu religion.

Like I said, like it have been said by many here on many topics on the Dharmic dir, drugs is not supported, promoted, used. Sharpening will and perception, seeking refuge in oneself, awakening to the greater things inside and outside of the Self, illusory or not, is WORK. Work of the mind by Sadhana and meditation, work of the intellect by the scriptures and the study that gives you knowledge to go on, NOTHING you will get by getting high on whatever you want. It only cloud your mind, it creates temporary things that bring nothing but attachement, an attachement that you cannot get rid the more you get in it. Is that enlightenmenent ? Is that liberation ? Getting past the mud of the illusion by bathing oneself in its muddy, sticky waters ?

I don't think this is what any Buddha or Bodhisattva were teaching.

You can do what you want with your life or your spiritual path, but again, I repeat: the use and promotion of drugs is NOT supported in Buddhism/Hinduism, or any Dharmic religion.

As a Hindu, the only valid source is Gurus, scriptures, teachings of masters.
For a Buddhist, the only valid source is lama, teachers, Buddhas, sutras
Neo whatever that try to find supposed hidden sense in eastern scriptures while showing clearly ignorance for these religions and culture is not a valid source, at all.

I am sorry if Buddhism/Hinduism is apparently not in accordance with what you are looking for. But like others have said, the answer and the scriptures won't change because they doesn't fit you.


Aum Namah Shivaya
 
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dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Max, if you're looking for word for word, each drug mentioned, by name, being denounced in the scriptures, you're not going to find it. It sounds to me like you've already made up your mind about what you think, and nothing else is going to change that. The reason why most Buddhists caution against drug usage is because, while it's true that some can cause altered states of consciousness which might seem to be similar to enlightenment experiences, this is the effect of the drug, and not the mind through practice. Another issue is that most of those drugs you mentioned are highly addictive, which is the opposite effect of Buddhist practices such as meditation, which free the mind. If you're looking for someone to condone your drug usage, it's not likely to happen here. If you're looking for a rigid literal interpretation of some scripture, check out the Abrahamic sections. Buddhism is not about the word, or the paper, but the spirit. Simply reading the Buddha's words is not enough, you have to understand the spirit of the words, make them your own, and experience them fully. From my own personal experience, drugs are antithetical to this end. That's just my two cents.
 

maxfreakout

Active Member
Max, if you're looking for word for word, each drug mentioned, by name, being denounced in the scriptures, you're not going to find it.

except for alcohol, which is mentioned very directly and specifically by the fifth precept. It is odd how modern buddhists have arbitrarily extended the meaning of "distilled and fermented drinks causing heedlessness" to include every drug on the planet including the ones that have only been invented recently.


most Buddhists caution against drug usage is because

This ^ statement is misleading, because it is only modern (post 1960s) buddhists who "caution against drug usage". Buddha himself doesnt seem to have had any problem with drugs, according to the suttas that have been quoted in this thread.

Another issue is that most of those drugs you mentioned are highly addictive

This is untrue, of all the drugs i have mentioned, only cocaine and perhaps caffeine could be said to be 'addictive'. The drugs which trigger mystical experiences are not addictive.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
can you provide a quote where drugs in general (as opposed to just alcohol) are mentioned in an ancient buddhist text?




this is not relevant to what i am asking, im asking if drugs are prohibited in traditional buddhism
I'm looking for the word Vibhītaka in the Pali Vinaya Pitaka, as the Pali Text Society references that word as occurring there. I have no idea how it would be translated into English, and my Pali is horrible, so it's tough going. I'm interested in what it has to say about it.

The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Vibhītaka
Vibhītaka (& ˚ṭaka) [cp. *Sk. vibhīta & ˚ka] the plant Terminalia belerica; beleric myrobolan. Dice were made from its fruits, which are also used as medicine (intoxicant); its flowers smell vilely. -- Vin i.201; J iii.161; v.363; vi.529.

Here's the wiki entry on this tree whose kernals have mind-altering qualities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminalia_belerica
 

maxfreakout

Active Member
soma is a drug and hindu/gods/bouddhists/whatever get high on cow mushrooms ? Quote me A SINGLE VERSE of valid Buddhist/Hindu scripture that support that.

Some translate as nectar, read a little about the Vedas, or Hindu scripture, and tell me where is it written as psychoactive beverage.

there are hundreds of examples in the soma mandala in the rig veda, this is well documented, soma is a beverage, called the 'elixir of life' which renders immortal those who drink it.

For example the wikipedia page for 'soma' gives several clear references, such as:

"We have drunk Soma and become immortal; we have attained the light, the Gods discovered"


Quote me a single sutra that glorify the use of drugs.

what this thread seems to establish, is that while Hinduism emphatically glorifies the use of 'soma', the buddhist suttas contain no explicit mentions of any drugs except fermented and distilled (= alcoholic) drinks

Like I said, like it have been said by many here on many topics on the Dharmic dir, drugs is not supported, promoted, used. Sharpening will and perception, seeking refuge in oneself, awakening to the greater things inside and outside of the Self, illusory or not, is WORK. Work of the mind by Sadhana and meditation, work of the intellect by the scriptures and the study that gives you knowledge to go on, NOTHING you will get by getting high on whatever you want. It only cloud your mind, it creates temporary things that bring nothing but attachement, an attachement that you cannot get rid the more you get in it. Is that enlightenmenent ? Is that liberation ? Getting past the mud of the illusion by bathing oneself in its muddy, sticky waters ?

this ^ is just a restatement of the prevailing modern antidrugs bias, it has no connection to traditional buddhist practise
 

Nyingjé Tso

Dharma not drama
soma is a beverage, called the 'elixir of life' which renders immortal those who drink it.

"We have drunk Soma and become immortal; we have attained the light, the Gods discovered"

I fail to see where is drug involved, unless you consider smoking weed makes you immortal, which is a pretty dumb idea.

So, basically, every civilization have some kind of thing that make Gods immortal or stronger or whatever, and you assure this is drug ?

So when we give PanchAmrit to a God during Abhisekam, we are giving drug to the God ?

Amrita = "nectar of immortality, ambrosia, beverage of the Gods"

You consider a mixture of milk, curd, honey, yoghurt, sugar and ghee to be drugs ? Because actually, Amrita and Soma are more described as this mixture than as a mixture of mushweedrug.

Sorry but I personally do not consider Wikipedia a valuable ressource above hindu scriptures/teaching of gurus.


Aum Namah Shivaya
 

Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
Strawdog mentioned 'smart drugs'. I use them often. Anxiolytic, and attention and memory enhancing. Nothing to feel ashamed about the next day. No 'crazy notions'.

So really, use your own good judgement people - that's what it's for. If you only trust someone else's interpretation of a scripture, you are probably 'intoxicated' with naive belief.

Then you know! You must be like twenty steps ahead of everybody else but at the expense of losing sense of time and addiction. Has nobody seen that movie?

Sorry, I always get crazy notions. :D
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I'm looking for the word Vibhītaka in the Pali Vinaya Pitaka, as the Pali Text Society references that word as occurring there. I have no idea how it would be translated into English, and my Pali is horrible, so it's tough going. I'm interested in what it has to say about it.



Here's the wiki entry on this tree whose kernals have mind-altering qualities.
Terminalia bellirica - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OK, here are some interesting nuggets from Buddhist Monastic Code, Chapter 5: Medicines.

(Note that these remedies are only for when you are sick.)

For wind afflictions in the limbs: Sweating treatments, sweating treatments with herbs, and a "great sweating" treatment are allowed. The Commentary gives directions for this last treatment: Use a hole dug lengthwise the size of a human being and fill it with burning embers, charcoal, or coals; cover it with sand or dirt, and then with various leaves that are good for wind diseases. Have the ill bhikkhu cover his body with oil and lie down on top of the leaves, turning over as necessary. Other treatments for wind afflictions in the limbs include hemp water (according to the Commentary, this means water boiled with hemp leaves; pour it over the body, cover the body with the leaves, and then get into a sweating-treatment tent) and a water tub, which the Commentary says is a tub big enough for a bhikkhu to get into. Hot tubs would come under here.​

and this:
"I allow a double nose-tube." ... "I allow that smoke be inhaled." ... "I allow a tube for inhaling smoke." ... "One should not use fancy smoke-inhaling tubes. Whoever does: an offense of wrong doing. I allow (smoke-inhaling tubes) made of bone, ivory, horn, reed, bamboo, wood, lac (resin), fruit (§) (e.g., coconut shell), copper (metal), or conch-shell." ... "I allow a lid (for the smoke-inhaling tubes)." ... "I allow a bag for the smoke-inhaling tubes." ... "I allow a double bag." ... "I allow a string for tying the mouth of the bag as a carrying strap." — Mv.VI.13.1​

LOL!
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Oh, Max, you might want to be aware of the monk's code against eating garlic unless one is ill--garlic was used as a medicine. If prohibitions against using medicine were in place unless one was ill, this is obviously referring to recreational drug use as being prohibited by monks.

I don't know if this has anything to do with it.... In India garlic is not eaten in many places because it is seen as having the effect of increasing desires.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I'm looking for the word Vibhītaka in the Pali Vinaya Pitaka, as the Pali Text Society references that word as occurring there. I have no idea how it would be translated into English, and my Pali is horrible, so it's tough going. I'm interested in what it has to say about it.



Here's the wiki entry on this tree whose kernals have mind-altering qualities.
Terminalia bellirica - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ahh, I found it!

"I allow that, having accepted fruit-medicine — i.e., vilaṅga, long pepper, black pepper, yellow myrobalan, beleric myrobalan, embric myrobalan, goṭha, or whatever other fruits are medicines and do not serve, among non-staple food, the purpose of non-staple food; or, among staple food, the purpose of staple food — one may keep it for life and, when there is reason, consume it. If there is no reason, there is an offense of wrong doing for one who consumes it." — Mv.VI.6​

It says it may be consumed if there is reason for it, but recreational use of it is an offense of wrong doing.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I don't know if this has anything to do with it.... In India garlic is not eaten in many places because it is seen as having the effect of increasing desires.
The passage is specifically as its use as a medicine:

"Garlic should not be eaten. Whoever should eat it: an offense of wrong doing." ... "I allow that garlic be eaten in the case of illness." — Cv.V.34.1-2​

Oh, and remember, these rules are for monks and nuns, not laypersons.
 
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