Does Free Will Exist?

[Trailblazer]

Why are you this choosing this path ? Because you want to be happier. Therefore you are not really choosing the path you don't want. That's merely the perception you have for resisting a major urge.

I think I understand how Enoch07 feels because a part of us still thinks we want these things we used to want even though we do not really want them anymore.

 

[charlie sc]

forum claims a murderer is not responsible for his choice because he has no free will.

The consequence of a good grade is a pass and vice versa for a bad grade. The consequence of a piece of equipment breaking might be to get it fixed or throw it away. A consequence of a typhoon would be torn up buildings. And the consequence of torn up building would most likely be to remove them and rebuild them. Everything has a consequence. As Newton says: "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." Assuming there is no free-will, why would there be no consequence for a murder?

 

[Trailblazer]

So you see I want to be happy. Drugs/alchohol will make me happy.

But I am choosing the other option, unfortunately for me.

You have to define what happiness is. What do you mean by happiness? There is material happiness and there is spiritual happiness. I have given up material happiness for spiritual happiness and I am happier than I ever was before. All drugs and alcohol do is give you the illusion of happiness.

 

[Enoch07]

Why did you give into drugs in the first place?

To cope with sexual/physical/mental abuse I experienced as a child. To escape the nightmare that was the first 18 years of my life. I still continued abusing into my early 20's before I woke up and decided to change.

Why are you choosing a path you don't want to do?

Because I refuse to give in to my drug and alchohol addiction. Even though it would make me happy.

 

[Enoch07]

You have to define what happiness is. What do you mean by happiness? There is material happiness and there is spiritual happiness. I have given up material happiness for spiritual happiness and I am happier than I ever was before. All drugs and alcohol do is give you the illusion of happiness.

Happiness is subjective. Its different for everyone. What makes me happy might not be what makes you happy. But it doesn't change the fact that what makes me happy, happy.

 

[Skwim]

And so you really think that people are not responsible for their moral choices?
So who is responsible? Someone has to be responsible.

They would be, but only in the sense that they and no one else committed the act in question. As for being responsible in the sense that they could have just as easily done otherwise, they are not responsible because they couldn't have done otherwise.

A moral component would not lead to murder.

Although one may be morally opposed to murder it may not be enough to prevent one from committing murder. Sometimes moral components are overridden by other compelling factors.

That is true, but I was talking about humanity as a whole. We cannot count on empathy to instill morality because most people do not have empathy if it comes to deciding between their own wants and needs and caring about someone else.

Nor can we count on religion to instill morality. Simply consider all the child abuse that has taken place by the clergy, whom I think it is fair to assume would say their morals come out of their religion.

But a person does not have to act upon their own personal desires; they can act according to their principles, what they believe is the right thing to do. Animals act on their desires. Humans have the capacity to rise above their desires.

Actually, people only do what they're compelled to do. We have no actual choice.

The will is the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action.

I disagree. I contend the will is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires.

If we did not will anything how could we do anything?

Because sometimes our desires don't enter the equation, as when we act instinctually.

.

 

[charlie sc]

To cope with sexual/physical/mental abuse I experienced as a child.

Why couldn't you choose to cope with it instead of taking drugs?

Because I refuse to give in to my drug and alchohol addiction. Even though it would make me happy.

Why do you refuse to give into your drug and alcohol addiction?

I do apologise if I'm being direct, unsympathetic or not kind, but I feel as though I should treat you the same as I treat everyone. That's my way of showing respect for you and what you've been through.

 

[Enoch07]

Why couldn't you choose to cope with it instead of taking drugs?

I was using the drugs to cope with the abuse. Its escapism, here take this, live in an alternate reality where these terrible things did not happen to you. It works as far as escaping in the moment. But when the drugs wear off, the memories come flooding back, which means more drugs! And so begins the spiral into addiction.

It was only by finally dealing (therapy) with the issues, instead of running from them (drugs), could I find something resembling peace. Though I still have a short temper that I constantly have to manage. Anger management got me as far as it can, it's up to me to control my rage now. The issues have been dealt with, but the scars and damage never totally fade away. Hence I will be a drug addict to the day I die. Whether I chose to give in to that or not is completely my choice.

Why do you refuse to give into your drug and alcohol addiction?

Because I wasted too many years doing it already. I refuse to waste my last few years by giving in to it.

I do apologise if I'm being direct, unsympathetic or not kind, but I feel as though I should treat you the same as I treat everyone.

No offense taken, you've been respectful so far.

 

[Ancient Soul]

I don't remember ever choosing to like something over anything else. Do you ?

That's even funny!

Although to be honest, I have no idea how spiritually broken people think/decide if they even do. But other than emergency split second decisions, everything I do takes varying amounts of thinking/deciding.

So you are saying that if you like something it just magically happens with absolutely no conscious thoughts on your part?

And if something better comes along you just as magically happen to like that thing more without any comparison or thinking/deciding which you like better?

Strange that!

If you were to ask me what ice cream flavor I prefer I would think of which flavor brought me the greatest joy. I would just compare the experiences. There would be no choice involved.

Please reread your comment until it sinks in that you just contradicted yourself.

First you claim "I don't remember ever choosing to like something over anything else."

Then you claim that "I would just compare the experiences."

Here, maybe this will help:

choose
verb act on one's own authority, adopt, appoint, be disposed to, be resolute, be so minded, co-opt, commit oneself to a course, cull, decide, deligere, desire, determine, determine upon, discriminate, discriminate between, do of one's own accord, draw, elect, eliminate the alternatives, embrace, excerpt, exercise one's choice, exercise one's discretion, exercise one's option, exercise one's preference, exercise the will, have volition, make a decision, make one's choice, make one's selection, mark out for, opt for, pick, pick out, prefer, put to the vote, resolve, select, set apart, settle, side, support, take a decisive step, take one's choice, take up an option, use one's discretion, use one's option, will

 

[Trailblazer]

Assuming there is no free-will, why would there be no consequence for a murder?

Why do you assume there is no free will?
There is a consequence because there is free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

Happiness is subjective. Its different for everyone. What makes me happy might not be what makes you happy. But it doesn't change the fact that what makes me happy, happy.

That is true, happiness is subjective.

But there are still different kinds of happiness, material happiness and spiritual happiness.
You might be happy with material happiness but you might be happy with it because you have never known spiritual happiness. I was in that position once. Now I do not even know how I could ever have cared so much about what I was addicted to.

I used my free will to change and it was not easy, but I got help from God.
With God all things are possible but we have to give up control.

 

[charlie sc]

I was using the drugs to cope with the abuse. Its escapism, here take this, live in an alternate reality where these terrible things did not happen to you. It works as far as escaping in the moment. But when the drugs wear off, the memories come flooding back, which means more drugs! And so begins the spiral into addiction.

It was only by finally dealing (therapy) with the issues, instead of running from them (drugs), could I find something resembling peace. Though I still have a short temper that I constantly have to manage. Anger management got me as far as it can, it's up to me to control my rage now. The issues have been dealt with, but the scars and damage never totally fade away. Hence I will be a drug addict to the day I die. Whether I chose to give in to that or not is completely my choice.

I respect what you've been through and I'm glad you got your life in order. However, you cannot choose not to be a drug addict or prone to taking drugs. As a previous and strong coping mechanism, you cannot wish it away as much as you could choose another start. And this is what is meant by no free-will. You may have been lucky or had the fortitude to change, but other people might not have. Other people might be stuck in their position until they die. And you thinking they could have done otherwise puts a disservice to them, because you are then assuming they could have chosen otherwise, where it may be they can't. Similarly, some person may look at you and think you did this to yourself and you are entirely to blame. However, we both know you are not to blame but you were stuck for a time. Hence why you resorted to escapism, just a bad form of escapism.

Because I wasted too many years doing it already. I refuse to waste my last few years by giving in to it.

Did you want to change because you've had enough? Why did you refuse giving into it anymore?

 

[Jos]

but if someone does not believe they have free will they will never think they have a choice, they will just act impulsively.

That's not true. Many people don't believe in free will yet don't act impulsively but actually do think through the consequences of their actions before they make choices and yes, many of them are still moral people. Even if free will were proven to be an illusion or non existent, I wouldn't start acting immorally because I know there are bad consequences to my actions and that I'm still accountable to others and the law of the land... heck, even basic empathy alone might probably be enough for me not to act immorally. Lack of free will wouldn't mean lack of responsibility or lack of consequences.

 

[charlie sc]

Why do you assume there is no free will?

I'm assuming for arguments sake as I do when we talk about the existence of free-will. These are philosophical constructs.

There is a consequence because there is free will.

There's a consequence for everything. Why would there not be one if free-will did not exist?

 

[Enoch07]

But there are still different kinds of happiness, material happiness and spiritual happiness.

Hmm well a little bit of all. Within the last year I have bought a house, and bought myself a new Mustang to please my material happiness.

Spiritual happiness comes in hanging out with and sometimes but not always discussing the Bible with my cousin, who is more like a brother.

Peace of mind is very important and the Lord helps me with that.

I used my free will to change and it was not easy, but I got help from God.

Same, but at the time I quit I was an atheist. So the appeal to a higher power never appealed to me at the time.

I didn't find God for another 10 years or so. But I've been thankful ever since.

With God all things are possible but we have to give up control.

This is true. But also I am stubborn child of the Lord. I am sure I frustrate Him greatly sometimes. But when I do drift, I usually learn my lesson in a harsh way, and come back home to rest, and He forgives me and we carry on. I try my best to give over my will to Him, but I also tend to fight back time to time. My judgment day may be rough for me!

 

[Jos]

This whole idea that we have no choice but to do what we want at the time is childishly naive and irresponsible.

People are responsible for their choices even if their actions are determined since they are the agent making the decision and not another agent... so yes, even if free will is an illusion people would still be responsible for their actions since they are the agents who committed the act and not some other agent.

 

[Trailblazer]

They would be, but only in the sense that they and no one else committed the act in question. As for being responsible in the sense that they could have just as easily done otherwise, they are not responsible because they couldn't have done otherwise.

There is no way for you to prove that they could not have done otherwise so it is just a theory.

Although one may be morally opposed to murder it may not be enough to prevent one from committing murder. Sometimes moral components are overridden by other compelling factors.

And so that makes it okay to take a human life?

Nor can we count on religion to instill morality. Simply consider all the child abuse that has taken place by the clergy, whom I think it is fair to assume would say their morals come out of their religion.

The clergy is not what I mean by religion. If people follow the teachings and laws of the revealed scriptures they cannot be immoral.

The actions of those clergy who commit child abuse go against their religion.

Actually, people only do what they're compelled to do. We have no actual choice.

It is Unbelievable to me that you say that. If we had no choice we would just be like programmed robots.

But there was a time when I did not think I had a choice. In retrospect, I now know I was a prisoner of my desires.
I used to be compelled to have sex all the time but I chose not to act on that compulsion anymore.

I disagree. I contend the will is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires. .

I got that definition in an online dictionary. You seem to be consumed with desires. A person can override their selfish desires if they make a conscious choice to do so.

Because sometimes our desires don't enter the equation, as when we act instinctually..

Acting instinctually is acting according to our physical desires.

 

[Ancient Soul]

I was using the drugs to cope with the abuse. Its escapism, here take this, live in an alternate reality where these terrible things did not happen to you. It works as far as escaping in the moment. But when the drugs wear off, the memories come flooding back, which means more drugs! And so begins the spiral into addiction.

It was only by finally dealing (therapy) with the issues, instead of running from them (drugs), could I find something resembling peace. Though I still have a short temper that I constantly have to manage. Anger management got me as far as it can, it's up to me to control my rage now. The issues have been dealt with, but the scars and damage never totally fade away. Hence I will be a drug addict to the day I die. Whether I chose to give in to that or not is completely my choice.



Because I wasted too many years doing it already. I refuse to waste my last few years by giving in to it.



No offense taken, you've been respectful so far.

Sorry for butting in, but you did not really answer his question of:

"Why couldn't you choose to cope with it instead of taking drugs?"

Now I'm not trying to be difficult, but coming from having a horrific childhood myself and having suffered thru many harsh difficulties in later life, "escapism" never even entered my mind, so am just trying to understand why someone would turn to taking drugs rather than just doing their best to deal with what is before them.

And yes, the old saying that "Time heals all wounds" is a flat out lie. Some psychological childhood wounds NEVER completely heal/go away. But I have found that my past is just useless baggage that no longer really exists unless I foolishly open the Pandora's box of all my childhood psychological wounds. I survived it all and am FREE, the past is gone forever and cannot hurt me. All that matters is the NOW.

And I believe the raging anger comes from all the unfair abuse that I had no control over as a child. And so as an adult everything that didn't go "my" way would make me fly into a rage trying to re-gain control of the "unfair" situation. But lots of self-hypnosis telling myself that most of it really doesn't matter, solved that issue for me.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's not true. Many people don't believe in free will yet don't act impulsively but actually do think through the consequences of their actions before they make choices and yes, many of them are still moral people. Even if free will were proven to be an illusion or non existent, I wouldn't start acting immorally because I know there are bad consequences to my actions and that I'm still accountable to others and the law of the land... heck, even basic empathy alone might probably enough for me not to act immorally. Lack of free will wouldn't mean lack of responsibility or lack of consequences.

That is true. All I meant to say is that people who believe that they have free will are more likely to exercise their free will to change.
That does not mean that people who do not believe in free will will act impulsively or immorally. Because they have free will, whether they believe it or not, they will make choices and depending upon their values they will choose one way or another way.

 

[Jos]

Anger management got me as far as it can, it's up to me to control my rage now.

I used my free will to change and it was not easy, but I got help from God.

If we had absolute free will then shouldn't we be able to make any choice we want to without needing help from anyone whether it's dealing with anger ie. simply choosing not to be angry anymore or simply doing what a God wants you to do without needing help from God to submit to Him?