Does God create evil?

[horizon_mj1]

In view of God being a creator god, would not the creation of choice alone change things significantly? Lucifer was the only one granted free will, he was just the first one to directly disobey, therefore being cast from the presence of God. He did not lose his free will after this happened and was not destroyed by God being He is in fact a creator god. As far as evils we face as humans, it is our own free will and decisions that create these with a more concentrated effort from "the father (or fathers) of sin. Just as in physics every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Every living thing has extreme free will. On a daily basis does not every creature choose to live (though some choose not to). Don't creatures choose rather or not to eat, drink, and mentally function in one way or the other?

 

[SoulTraveler]

And I responded to that apologetical statement by showing that what we call 'good' is dependent upon evil or bad occurrences. Evil therefore exists.

Not so fast. Who is 'we'? What is good for you may be evil for me. An earthquake may be evil for one group of people (the victims) and good for another (construction companies). This is why we need to treat good and evil in isolation, without subjectivity, or we get nowhere.

Btw, what's quoted above could easily be flipped, since the ideas of good and evil would not exist without each other as each is relative to the other. I could just as easily say, as I have, that good exists and evil doesn't, because without good, you wouldn't have a concept of evil.

Besides, you can't prove evil exists. And don't even think about trying to hit me with a demand to prove it doesn't. That would be fallaciously demanding me to prove a negative. I can't prove good exists, either, but if someone believes in God, say, in the Abrahamic sense, then Good does exist for them de facto, and evil its absence since there can be no evil issued forth from that which is the definition of Holy (good) and therefore does not exist because existence is contingent upon God. But then, we're still stuck in subjectivity, aren't we? Because believe in God is subjective since his existence can't be proven, either.

My experience as a practicing mystic is that good exists, objectively (an understatement), and evil is its absence. But that is also subjective, and radically subjective at that.

 

[cottage]

Not so fast. Who is 'we'? What is good for you may be evil for me. An earthquake may be evil for one group of people (the victims) and good for another (construction companies). This is why we need to treat good and evil in isolation, without subjectivity, or we get nowhere.

Well, straight off I see we’re in agreement that evil exists. So that’s a start. An earthquake results in ‘victims’: ie people are harmed.

Btw, what's quoted above could easily be flipped, since the ideas of good and evil would not exist without each other as each is relative to the other. I could just as easily say, as I have, that good exists and evil doesn't, because without good, you wouldn't have a concept of evil.

Evil is a state or condition where harm and suffering exists (no evil, then no suffering). But ‘goodness’ is a purely synthetic term that is dependent upon evil in order to have any meaning, whereas evil and suffering are actions or events. So evil, the state or condition, can exist on its own account without reference to some other vague concept that is used to merely denote its absence. The same cannot logically be said of ‘goodness’: it is logically impossible for it to exist on its own without reference to evil. Would you like some examples?

Besides, you can't prove evil exists. And don't even think about trying to hit me with a demand to prove it doesn't. That would be fallaciously demanding me to prove a negative. I can't prove good exists, either, but if someone believes in God, say, in the Abrahamic sense, then Good does exist for them de facto, and evil its absence since there can be no evil issued forth from that which is the definition of Holy (good) and therefore does not exist because existence is contingent upon God. But then, we're still stuck in subjectivity, aren't we? Because believe in God is subjective since his existence can't be proven, either.

Evil exists. Even if I imagine that I’m suffering it is none the less true that I suffer. And others suffer, otherwise why is there apologia that seeks to explain it? The rest of what you’ve written forms no part of my argument, and I’m rather surprised that you think I might resort to the utter absurdity of expecting you to prove the non-existence of an object.

My experience as a practicing mystic is that good exists, objectively (an understatement), and evil is its absence. But that is also subjective, and radically subjective at that.

And of course I must respect your right to believe that.

 

[SoulTraveler]

Well, straight off I see we’re in agreement that evil exists. So that’s a start. An earthquake results in ‘victims’: ie people are harmed.

Uh, no, we're not.

Evil is a state or condition where harm and suffering exists (no evil, then no suffering).

No. Someone may bump into me accidentally, forcing me to put my hand on a hot stove and burn myself, but that that isn't evil. It's just clumsy. Someone else forcing my hand onto that stove - that's evil. The difference is 1) intent to cause harm and suffering because of, 2) lack of compassion (goodness).

But ‘goodness’ is a purely synthetic term that is dependent upon evil in order to have any meaning, whereas evil and suffering are actions or events.

Acts of unconditional love are dependent upon, what?

So evil, the state or condition, can exist on its own account without reference to some other vague concept that is used to merely denote its absence. The same cannot logically be said of ‘goodness’: it is logically impossible for it to exist on its own without reference to evil. Would you like some examples?

Pass. xxx

Evil exists. Even if I imagine that I’m suffering it is none the less true that I suffer. And others suffer, otherwise why is there apologia that seeks to explain it?

Apologists are busy because the starting point is that good exists (usually represented by an omnipotent god) begging the question of evil, not the reverse.

The rest of what you’ve written forms no part of my argument, and I’m rather surprised that you think I might resort to the utter absurdity of expecting you to prove the non-existence of an object.

An assumption borne of experience. I apologize.

 

[cottage]

Uh, no, we're not.

Okay then. Evil is suffering and where there is no evil there is no suffering, but there is suffering, ergo evil exists.

No. Someone may bump into me accidentally, forcing me to put my hand on a hot stove and burn myself, but that that isn't evil. It's just clumsy. Someone else forcing my hand onto that stove - that's evil. The difference is 1) intent to cause harm and suffering because of, 2) lack of compassion (goodness).

I’m saying that evil is suffering, and I make no distinction between moral evil and natural or so-called metaphysical evil, since in all cases it results in suffering.

Acts of unconditional love are dependent upon, what?

The prior self! What we call love isn’t unconditional and it isn’t moral ‘goodness’; it is necessary and selfish. Parents love their children but they don’t love other parents’ children. And romantic love answers a genetic, biological need. There can be no acts of pure ‘goodness’ for two reasons: 1) because the self is logically prior (there is either a direct motive or at minimum some benefit for the person; and 2) charitable or compassionate acts require suffering.

I always feel like a hard-hearted bully when I raise this subject, which for some reason has gone unchallenged for far too long. The oft-spouted claim that evil exists because of a privation of good is held more as an article of faith than from any serious analysis of the terms. And yet I can understand why people would want to believe that is the case. It is the most natural thing to believe that ultimately good will triumph over evil and that ‘goodness’ is more than just a term used in the absence of suffering. Perhaps the ‘good’ is the hope and the optimism?

Apologists are busy because the starting point is that good exists (usually represented by an omnipotent god) begging the question of evil, not the reverse.

But people do suffer, nevertheless.

An assumption borne of experience. I apologize.

No apology needed, but thank you. (I too have had cause to groan when that nonsensical argument has been employed in debates.)

 

[esmith]

First it depends on which book of the bible you are reading. In Genesis, the first three versus indicate that the earth was not created ex nihilo (out of nothing). The earth existed with preexisting matter. Genesis 1:1- When God began to create heaven and earth--the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water--God said "let there be light"; and there was light.

The author wants the reader/listener to understand that "darkness" is evil and that the "deep" was evil (deep refers to the oceans...salt water you can't use and storms that create havoc) Ancient Near East writings show that civilizations believed that the oceans were evil. Writer also wants to convey that God did not create evil, it was here already. Light is good not evil and God began "organizing" the earth as the rest of the first creation story continues.

 

[Ben Masada]

welcome to the forums

god did not create evil because in my opinion he is nothing more then mans imagination for what he does not know.

God did not create evil because evil does not exist. It has to be made as man misuses his freewill and behaves in a non-good way, which would be his natural. Everything God has created, behold, it was good. The expression is mentioned seven times only in the first chapter of Genesis. Even man himself, God created him straight, but he got bored of doing good and evil was the result. Therefore, evil is only the absence of good. (Eccl. 7:29)

 

[cottage]

First it depends on which book of the bible you are reading. In Genesis, the first three versus indicate that the earth was not created ex nihilo (out of nothing). The earth existed with preexisting matter. Genesis 1:1- When God began to create heaven and earth--the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water--God said "let there be light"; and there was light.

The author wants the reader/listener to understand that "darkness" is evil and that the "deep" was evil (deep refers to the oceans...salt water you can't use and storms that create havoc) Ancient Near East writings show that civilizations believed that the oceans were evil. Writer also wants to convey that God did not create evil, it was here already. Light is good not evil and God began "organizing" the earth as the rest of the first creation story continues.

I see no problem at all with evil existing before God created the earth; but it must still be the case that God created evil. God is the omnipotent creator of everything existent, and his causal abilities are not limited to the material world.

 

[esmith]

God is the omnipotent creator of everything existent, and his causal abilities are not limited to the material world.

Where did you read that God was the creator of everything? Could it be that the "matter" that God came across was from, let's say "the Big Bang Theory"

 

[RaimThunder]

Revelation 4:11 (King James Version)


11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

God made everything.

John 8:32
thecomforter.info

 

[AntEmpire]

God did not create evil because evil does not exist. It has to be made as man misuses his freewill and behaves in a non-good way, which would be his natural. Everything God has created, behold, it was good. The expression is mentioned seven times only in the first chapter of Genesis. Even man himself, God created him straight, but he got bored of doing good and evil was the result. Therefore, evil is only the absence of good. (Eccl. 7:29)

Bored? Sorry actually god created and inserted into the perfectly good garden a little thing called satan who (an all knowing god would know) steered the perfectly good man/woman off the straight and narrow. God also inserted into this perfectly good garden a little thing called a Tree of the Knowledge of Good and EVIL how could god create the knowledge of something that doesn't exist. And god could've easily not created satan or the tree... but he created both. He could've made them but put them on the dark side of the moon or something. But he put them in the one place in the practically infinite vastness of the universe where his perfectly good created man child was, in order to corrupt him. Because it was god's will for man to know evil, and to go about it in a round about (really quite deceiving) way.

 

[JustWondering]

man misuses his freewill and behaves in a non-good way...

The God of the bible acts in a "non-good" way all the time too. Disease, famines, droughts, and nature disasters for instance. He killed just about every single human being on earth with a global flood. How about the time he killed all the first born. Where those actions and deeds good? Wouldn't a human who did these things be considered evil?

 

[Maury83]

Guys, James 1:13 says: "" When under trial, let no one say: "am being tried by God". For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone"".

Plus, God did make everything, Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"...........it doesn't get clearer than that.

 

[cottage]

Where did you read that God was the creator of everything? Could it be that the "matter" that God came across was from, let's say "the Big Bang Theory"

Interestingly, St Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica) makes a very good argument for the universe being self-existent.

But God is the omnipotent Supreme Being or he is not. And if he is not then there is room for another entity - one who is.

 

[AntEmpire]

Here's a theory, god is just as powerful as the rest of the angels, (meaning he can't change a whole lot) but he was the first of the angels, him and satan, and he simply claims to be the almighty.

 

[PolyHedral]

Who's been reading His Dark Materials?

 

[AntEmpire]

Who's been reading His Dark Materials?

What's that? :O

 

[PolyHedral]

His Dark Materials - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In it's universe, you'd be right, in that "the authority" is just one of many angels, but claims to be the first one.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The God of the bible acts in a "non-good" way all the time too. Disease, famines, droughts, and nature disasters for instance. He killed just about every single human being on earth with a global flood. How about the time he killed all the first born. Where those actions and deeds good? Wouldn't a human who did these things be considered evil?

There is a difference between bad deeds and an execution.
[capital punishment]
When the situation was beyond reform, people left God no choice but that the wicked be a ransom for the upright ones. Otherwise, the righteous would have been ruined with the wicked. -Proverbs 21v18; 10v30

Pharaoh was warned beforehand, Pharaoh chose to disobey God and suffered the bad consequences of his actions.

Noah warned the people beforehand [2nd Peter 2v5] They chose to disobey God's warning.

That is why even today both the righteous and wicked are being warned.
[Ezekiel 3vs18-21]. Warned before Jesus takes the action described at Isaiah 11v4 and Rev. 19 vs11,14,15.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Where did you read that God was the creator of everything? Could it be that the "matter" that God came across was from, let's say "the Big Bang Theory"

'Creator' is singular. [Deut 4v32]. According to Scripture only one Creator.
God as Creator used help in creating, but that does not mean he is not Creator of both the spirit realm and then the material or physical realm.
-Gen 1v26.

According to Isaiah and Jeremiah God supplied the needed high-density dynamic energy needed to create.

-Isaiah 40v26; Jeremiah 10v12; 32v17; Psalm 104v30