does god exist

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'd rather have someone point out where I am wrong than be called a prick, jerk, or whatever. To each his own.

Off the top of my head:

- you assume an omnipotent God, and then go on at length about what that God must do and cannot do. This is contradictory.

- your argument is based on your narrow definitions of certain terms. These narrow definitions exclude reasonable meanings for them.

- you take a number of leaps that have no justification whatsoever. For example, the claim that God could not know the universe unless that God was present everywhere and equally distributed.

- it seems you think that writing "CASE CLOSED" in caps somehow supports a crappy argument.

And the most important way you were wrong:

- you approached the discussion with open hostility rather than respectful disagreement.

 

[UnTheist]

Umm, I don't think so. You can be a prick all you want. It doesn't destroy the validity of your claims

 

[Runewolf1973]

I appreciate your thoughts. As is I question ALL authority, and even my own beliefs from time to time. I don't believe there are any "right" answers. My view of this is yes, God, if you wish to call it that, IS the universe and everything in it or around it. I rather prefer not to call it God though because I just don't believe in something all powerful and all knowing. Energy has power, but it also has it's own limitations depending on the type. I do however believe in all-existing and ever-changing which is what energy is. Energy is involved in everything that we do, but we always have the energy of choice. Unfortunately some people try to manipulate energy for their own selfish purposes. Some manipulate this energy in the form of murder, rape, or hatred. Energy itself cannot stop us from doing bad things, but we can make the choice ourselves to take that energy and direct it towards the greater good. Even if God does not exist in a physical aspect, to many God does exist and rightly so. This is because even if all God is is a belief, the energy which created that belief exists and holds some level of power, even if all it is is a chemical reaction in our minds. You can choose to believe this or not to believe it. Just remember, even what you don't believe, requires energy on your behalf to disbelieve it. If you don't believe in energy or God then WHAT ARE WE? Nothing? My belief I think proves that ALL beliefs are valid. They are all part of that which exists. You're own beliefs are equally valid. All things have meaning and a purpose. You're disbelief in God is as equally valid as someone's belief in God. ALL things, thoughts, or beliefs exist as some level of energy. It can neither be created or destroyed, only change form. From one thought to another, from one state of existence to another, from one chemical reaction to another. That is just how I see it. I accept you're belief as another form of thought-energy. Those who either don't believe it, refuse to believe it or are physically or mentally unable to believe it are still part of it because it exists. Just because another culture has a different view or belief, does not mean that our belief is any more valid than theirs.

I don't worship coal or oil, or coffee beans, but I do respect them as forms of energy. And I appreciate that fact that they exist. Sorry, I don't mean to use the name "God" in replace of energy, but sometimes the two just seem to have so much in common.

 

[Runewolf1973]

In order to retain an open mind, the case can never be CLOSED. I prefer having an open mind.

 

[lunamoth]

I appreciate your thoughts. As is I question ALL authority, and even my own beliefs from time to time. I don't believe there are any "right" answers. My view of this is yes, God, if you wish to call it that, IS the universe and everything in it or around it. I rather prefer not to call it God though because I just don't believe in something all powerful and all knowing. Energy has power, but it also has it's own limitations depending on the type. I do however believe in all-existing and ever-changing which is what energy is. Energy is involved in everything that we do, but we always have the energy of choice. Unfortunately some people try to manipulate energy for their own selfish purposes. Some manipulate this energy in the form of murder, rape, or hatred. Energy itself cannot stop us from doing bad things, but we can make the choice ourselves to take that energy and direct it towards the greater good. Even if God does not exist in a physical aspect, to many God does exist and rightly so. This is because even if all God is is a belief, the energy which created that belief exists and holds some level of power, even if all it is is a chemical reaction in our minds. You can choose to believe this or not to believe it. Just remember, even what you don't believe, requires energy on your behalf to disbelieve it. If you don't believe in energy or God then WHAT ARE WE? Nothing? My belief I think proves that ALL beliefs are valid. They are all part of that which exists. You're own beliefs are equally valid. All things have meaning and a purpose. You're disbelief in God is as equally valid as someone's belief in God. ALL things, thoughts, or beliefs exist as some level of energy. It can neither be created or destroyed, only change form. From one thought to another, from one state of existence to another, from one chemical reaction to another. That is just how I see it. I accept you're belief as another form of thought-energy. Those who either don't believe it, refuse to believe it or are physically or mentally unable to believe it are still part of it because it exists.

I don't worship coal or oil, or coffee beans, but I do respect them as forms of energy. And I appreciate that fact that they exist. Sorry, I don't mean to use the name "God" in replace of energy, but sometimes the two just seem to have so much in common.

Your explanation seems to indicate that you are a pantheist:

Pantheism (Greek: πάν ( 'pan' ) = all and θεός ( 'theos' ) = God, it literally means "God is All" and "All is God".) is the view that everything is of an all-encompassing immanent abstract God; or that the Universe, or nature, and God are equivalent.

. Not trying to push a label on you, just trying to help. Your belief that everyone's perspective on God is equally valid also seems to a popular view so I don't think it's too far out. I can't say I agree with you that God=energy, especially since in a scientific sense energy has a well-defined meaning, but metaphorically speaking Christians often say that God is light and I think perhaps this is how you are using the term energy. 2c.

 

[kai]

i can come back in two years time and you will have proved nothing, its the immovable object and the irresistible force , Its a very small example of the arguments that have raged since man could wonder, notice how it separates and causes a them and us effect, i cant think of any other man made thing that keeps us at each others throats more than the idea of God. and so much effort goes into it ,amazing

 

[Runewolf1973]

Your explanation seems to indicate that you are a pantheist:

. Not trying to push a label on you, just trying to help. Your belief that everyone's perspective on God is equally valid also seems to a popular view so I don't think it's too far out. I can't say I agree with you that God=energy, especially since in a scientific sense energy has a well-defined meaning, but metaphorically speaking Christians often say that God is light and I think perhaps this is how you are using the term energy. 2c.

Yes, I have at one time thought myself a pantheist, but there is just more to it. Sciences definition of energy does have specific defined meanings, but scientists have yet to define ALL forms of energy I believe. I do believe in spirit-energy, ghosts, and such, but science has still yet to prove it with scientific means. I really can't claim anything to be "GOD". To me all there really is is energy in various forms and shapes, some as of yet to be scientifically identified as energy. Yet, regardless if we acknowledge it or not, it is still there. If you choose not to believe it, is irrelevant. Thank you for your opinion.

 

[Runewolf1973]

i can come back in two years time and you will have proved nothing, its the immovable object and the irresistible force , Its a very small example of the arguments that have raged since man could wonder, notice how it separates and causes a them and us effect, i cant think of any other man made thing that keeps us at each others throats more than the idea of God. and so much effort goes into it ,amazing

You are absolutely right, there is no logic in fighting against beliefs. They are all different forms and views of the same thing. Like one tree with many branches. All are present, exist, and have something important to teach us. Instead of breaking branches off on our way up, we should pause and learn what each one is telling us. We need those branches so that new generations can learn from them and have a sense of their own philosophy, religion, or culture. To each their own.

For some, the specific name or belief of a "God" just gives them a sort of focal point for them to direct their spiritual energy. After all, we all need some sort of direction in life, don't we? The more we direct our energy to one specific belief or purpose, the more power it holds for us. But no matter what you wish to call it, science, philosophy, or religion, they are all parts of the same thing. It can be almost be compared to this......Science = Body, Philosophy = Mind, Religion = Spirit. Three fundamental things that actually belong together and should work in unison, but yet people are continually trying to pull them apart.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

If you keep on redefining a word, it loses it's meaning. If you want to call energy "God", why not just call energy "energy"? What is gained by calling energy God?

The meaning of words change, always have and always will.

From the way that RuneWolf1973's uses it, the only thing that is gained is that there can be no doubt that God exists, but in exchange, you get the God of coal, petroleum and solar power to worship.

When viewed as a non-spiritual phenomenom, God is energy. However, "spirit" denotes personality; i.e., purposeful energy.

Using the proper definition for a word means that when we are communicating, the audience can actually understand what the communicator is actually saying.

Of course, but the listener still has to piece things together. Communication isn't entirely straightforward no matter well defined the terms. The process is incredibly complex, much more so than people realize: speaker > intent > words selected based on the speaker's interpretation > listener > listener's interpretation of intent based on his own understanding of the words used.

To say "God is energy" is to say God is purposive energy, but that does not necessarily mean the speaker is saying that all energy is purposive. God, understood as infinite universal spirit-energy, may find its purpose in "putting to sleep" an infinite portion of its self for the purpose manifesting itself in unconscious matter. Its actual infinity would be undiminished by such an act, but it would amplify its character.

Note: I'm using this only to illustrate one possible understanding of "God is energy."

 

[UnityNow101]

We were all born atheists and add on the concept of God, heaven, and hell as we progress through life. If they are not known through experiences and reason, then they are unnecessary to human development. We can do without God. God would not exist as a concept and idea without us...

Does this mean that God does not exist? I do not know. I am only relating the personal revelations that have helped shape my beliefs. I am ready and willing for God to reveal himself to me in any way other than through another person...This I have made clear all throughout my search for answers. Religious tradition and books exist now for one purpose only; to maintain their stranglehold on their version of "truth." It is static propaganda...

 

[emiliano]

Of course it's up to me, and I think I'll stick with my general practice of only believing in things supported by evidence. I believe the correct term for believing things not supported by evidence is mentally ill, and I don't want to go there. How do you pick what to have faith in in the first place? Where you by any chance raised as a Christian?

Well. It was a long and winding road for me, I was raised in a Catholic family, baptised and confirmed in that faith, I was not a practicing Catholic and didn’t go to Church very often after that, later (as teenager) I attended more often but didn’t put much attention, I went there to socialise and check the girls out, as a young man I became interested in politic and participated in the Trades Union affair, mostly socialism and communism and offcourse I left my faith, I read several books and poetry and became an unbeliever. I migrated to Australia and continued my involvement an those thing, I also got invited to marriages, baptisms, so I was reacquainted with religion, I got married, I made contact with evangelists and joined one Church, I started to not only read the Bible, but to study it, to meditated on what it teaches, that is the way I was converted.

 

[emiliano]

As mean as feeding a fussy baby.

Let me reassure you that you won’t be force fed, and that God's Kingdom will be just fine.

 

[emiliano]

Well, if I need that faith to be saved, I'd think it would be good if he gave it to me no matter how he had to do it.

Well, ask and it well given to you, seek it and you will find, but you don’t want that, do you? really I don’t understand atheists, luckily there are no many of them, so although they are a naissance, it is a little one.

 

[Magic Man]

That's been my point all the while. It can't be done. Even God cannot share that what will not be received.

Right. Because that way you're just plain better than us. If we could "learn to do what you do", then you wouldn't be much better than us. This way, you can think of yourself as "awesome" and "very superior to us". Got it. If that's what gets you off, go right ahead. I just think it would be good for you to step into reality at some point.

 

[Magic Man]

Well, ask and it well given to you, seek it and you will find, but you don’t want that, do you?

Um, as I said, I'd love that, if that were the case. I have sought it, and haven't found it. I know you'll now tell me that I didn't seek it correctly, since that is then the only possible reason I could have not found it. The point was that if I need faith in God to be saved, and God is merciful, then wouldn't God force faith on me? And I do want that, if it means avoiding eternal damnation.

really I don’t understand atheists, luckily there are no many of them, so although they are a naissance, it is a little one.

I assume you mean "so few of them" and "nuisance". For one, there are many more than you know. Many European countries have more atheists than religious people. The number is growing in the U.S. too. For another, how are we "nuisances"? What do we do that annoys you? And how do you claim that all atheists are nuisances? Have you met all atheists? I'm willing to bet that you've met more than one atheist who wasn't a nuisance, whether or not you knew they were atheists.

Thanks for the insult, though. That is a great way to have a conversation.

 

[Caladan]

really I don’t understand atheists, luckily there are no many of them, so although they are a naissance, it is a little one.

As someone who said he was an 'unbeliever' in the previous post:

I went there to socialise and check the girls out, as a young man I became interested in politic and participated in the Trades Union affair, mostly socialism and communism and offcourse I left my faith, I read several books and poetry and became an unbeliever.

Your lack of Christian empathy makes me assume you still have not found the roots of Christianity.
'believers' will always be threatened by 'unbelievers', for centuries people who have not conformed to absurdities and superstitions have been deemed as 'heretics' and as a 'nuisance ' to the authorities needed to be silenced and exterminated. loving one's neighbors and enemies is one of the major threats to the mainstream organized religious structure, without enemies the believers cannot be swayed with religious passion.
I can tell you that in many modern and more progressive places of the word, people will consider you unstable for being a 'believer', so your assumption of Atheists being at odds is centric in every meaning of the word.

 

[Ben Masada]

What, God designed the universe so poorly that he has to manage every minute particle, or otherwise, it would go haywire?

*also a crying atheist baby, but has never reported Ben Masada's posts either.*

It's better that I assume you are joking than to admit you don't understand Poetry.

Well my friend, I have been reported thrice, and they were all from Atheists. Mind
you that I was sure that Atheists could take more than the heat generated by my
posts. I thought Christians would be more vulnerable. But that's okay. I haven't been
banned yet.

Ben

 

[doppelganger]

Well my friend, I have been reported thrice, and they were all from Atheists.

The identity of reporters are kept confidential. Are you just assuming this or is a staff member telling you something they shouldn't be?

 

[Ben Masada]

The identity of reporters are kept confidential. Are you just assuming this or is a staff member telling you something they shouldn't be?

The staff member reproduces the post to be identified, and one is able to know
whom he or she submitted the post to.

Ben

 

[doppelganger]

The staff member reproduces the post to be identified, and one is able to know
whom he or she submitted the post to.

Ben

They now identify who made the report? If so, that's changed since I was a super-mod. In which case, mea culpa.