does god exist

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The OP states:



The responses come down to two ways of looking at it:

1. Fish saying, "Look and see."
2. Fish saying, "Water does not exist because it is not seen."

The former swims and wonders how the water cannot be known to exist; the latter swims and wonders how it can be known at all.

And 1 can easily convince 2 by showing how the water, even though it's transparent, has measurable effects: It makes images of things above its surface waver; it imparts more pressure as the fish descend; it provides more resistive force when the fish swim faster; it provides the mechanism to explain how currents can carry the fish great distances. If the fish get really ambitious, they can even leap out of the water into the air to see and feel the difference between being surrounded by water and not.

Now... can your "water" do any of that?

 

[Storm]

Sorry, Penguin, but after being reported three times by crying Atheist babies who
can't stand the heat,

The more you whine about getting modded, the more I look for things I can report you for.

This isn't Myspace. There are rules. Deal with it or leave.

I have chosen perhaps for some time not to respond to their coments.

What a cop out. Why don't you just admit that you can't answer the question?

 

[Rolling_Stone]

And 1 can easily convince 2 by showing how the water, even though it's transparent, has measurable effects: It makes images of things above its surface waver; it imparts more pressure as the fish descend; it provides more resistive force when the fish swim faster; it provides the mechanism to explain how currents can carry the fish great distances. If the fish get really ambitious, they can even leap out of the water into the air to see and feel the difference between being surrounded by water and not.

Now... can your "water" do any of that?

Yes, but nothing can reveal the nature water to the willfully ignorant. Let me rephrase what I said for the less enlightened:

• Some fish swim while others busy themselves looking for the water in which they swim.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, but nothing can reveal the nature water to the willfully ignorant.

Insults again. Nice.

Let me rephrase what I said for the less enlightened:

• Some fish swim while others busy themselves looking for the water in which they swim.

Another animal analogy: my grandmother's dog would stand in the middle of the room and bark at a spot on the carpet. We couldn't see any apparent reason for the dog's behaviour; it turned out it was just the effects of the poor dog's cataracts. Nobody else saw what he saw, but that's because there really was nothing to be seen.

Now... it's up to you to convince me and any other interested readers that you're the "fish" and not the "dog".

 

[Magic Man]

The OP states:


The responses come down to two ways of looking at it:

1. Fish saying, "Look and see."
2. Fish saying, "Water does not exist because it is not seen."

The former swims and wonders how the water cannot be known to exist; the latter swims and wonders how it can be known at all.

No, the responses come down to:

1. Fish saying "Look, the water is proof of God."
2. Fish saying "No, water is just proof that there is water."

It's not about seeing something that others don't. It's about coming to different conclusions about what you see.

 

[Magic Man]

Yes, but nothing can reveal the nature water to the willfully ignorant.

I know, it's sad. If you weren't so willful about it, though, you could stop your ignorance. Just listen, and we'll help you.

Let me rephrase what I said for the less enlightened:

• Some fish swim while others busy themselves looking for the water in which they swim.

Oh, I see what you did there: You pretended that you're more enlightened than us! Beautiful!

Now, if you're done with your ridiculous insults which serve no purpose but to make you feel better about yourself...

The point is that your analogy just doesn't work. Whatever you think you see is not the water to the fish. If it was, then none of us could deny it. Since it's something only you can see, it's not nearly that obvious, and, since it's something only you can see, it leads me to the conclusion that you are not, in fact, more enlightened, but just plain crazy.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

The measurements of 9-10's example employ tools adequate to the task to which they are designed. Having been told repeatedly that the tools necessary to test the nature of water are personal and must be developed, the steadfast refusal to so does not mean ignorance is feigned, but it does mean it is a choice.

Why would anyone choose to remain ignorant? Because the person is content and so accustomed to his environment that he believes nothing can or should exist except what he can see and measure outside himself: I.e., other fish, the rocky shore, the sky above and the sand below. Those things are objective and shared realities. But the pressure, resistance and currents of the water can be only detected by looking within to where it is experienced. The tools used to measure shared realities are inadequate to the task. Once the presence of water is felt, the rocky shore, the sky above and the sand below may or may not remain objects of interest, but the subtleties of the water and the desire to share it with other fish are the primary interest.

 

[Magic Man]

Why would anyone choose to remain ignorant?

I don't know. Why do you choose to remain ignorant?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The measurements of 9-10's example employ tools adequate to the task to which they are designed. Having been told repeatedly that the tools necessary to test the nature of water are personal and must be developed, the steadfast refusal to so does not mean ignorance is feigned, but it does mean it is a choice.

Based on a complete lack of reason to choose otherwise, thanks to your complete refusal to give any reason beyond insults for why anyone should take you seriously.

I think your construct is very convenient for you: the fact that you're surrounded by people who don't believe as you do doesn't prompt you to reconsider your beliefs, because you've deemed them to be deficient.

I also note that so far, you haven't even hinted at how one would go about developing the "tools" you refer to. You seem to prefer to feign superiority by pointing out how you have them and others don't.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Energy is God. God is energy. It is everywhere, exists on all levels, has always been and always will be. It can neither be created or destroyed, but can change form. We are all part of it and we are all subject to it's laws. What is more like God than that? But that is just my opinion. All things, thoughts, creations and theories exist as a part of that reality,for all of it too relies on energy on some level to exist in the first place. Even our thoughts are part of what could be considered "God".

 

[rojse]

Why do you say that? I thought that you do not want God, why should God give you faith if you don’t want it? Shoving it down your throat would be mean, won’t it?

Surely your previous statement

“If there is a god, and it wanted us to know it existed, there would universally be no doubt it existed” What if He does not want you? Will His Kingdom be incomplete because you won’t be there?

would make us believe in maltheism, should it be true?

 

[rojse]

The measurements of 9-10's example employ tools adequate to the task to which they are designed. Having been told repeatedly that the tools necessary to test the nature of water are personal and must be developed, the steadfast refusal to so does not mean ignorance is feigned, but it does mean it is a choice.

Why would anyone choose to remain ignorant? Because the person is content and so accustomed to his environment that he believes nothing can or should exist except what he can see and measure outside himself: I.e., other fish, the rocky shore, the sky above and the sand below. Those things are objective and shared realities. But the pressure, resistance and currents of the water can be only detected by looking within to where it is experienced. The tools used to measure shared realities are inadequate to the task. Once the presence of water is felt, the rocky shore, the sky above and the sand below may or may not remain objects of interest, but the subtleties of the water and the desire to share it with other fish are the primary interest.

I'll bite - in this analogy, if the fish have their water, what is the comparitive medium for us?

 

[rojse]

Energy is God. God is energy.

So, if I want to worship God, I should go to a power station?

 

[doppelganger]

So, if I want to worship God, I should go to a power station?

Or dip your communion wafers in Red Bull.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Absolutely! There is no wrong way to worship something that is everywhere. If this universe is created by God (energy), then everything in it is part of God's creation and worth our respect. Respect everything and worship the world and universe around us, and we begin to understand ALL of what god is, not just one part of it. God's energy created us. We exist for his purpose. We unknowingly worship God just by merely being who we are.

 

[Autodidact]

Energy is God. God is energy. It is everywhere, exists on all levels, has always been and always will be. It can neither be created or destroyed, but can change form. We are all part of it and we are all subject to it's laws. What is more like God than that? But that is just my opinion. All things, thoughts, creations and theories exist as a part of that reality,for all of it too relies on energy on some level to exist in the first place. Even our thoughts are part of what could be considered "God".

1. Why add the word "God?"
2. Most people use the word "God" to mean a spiritual being of some kind, and it's very confusing to use it to mean "energy." Like, "when you exercise, you burn God." "We need to use sources of alternative God besides fossil fuels." "I'm so fatigued, really low-God. I don't think it works."

 

[Runewolf1973]

If it were to make things easier to understand, forget the word or name "God" in the first place. I don't believe in God anyways, I believe in Energy. It just happens to be the only thing that I can think of that comes even close to explaining what "God if it were" were like. Do you not believe energy exists?

I guess if you really don't believe that energy exists, that must also mean that you don't believe you exist yourself. Now thats Atheism! Maybe all of us are just a figment of "God's" imagination. If there even be such a thing as God.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

I also note that so far, you haven't even hinted at how one would go about developing the "tools" you refer to.

That's been my point all the while. It can't be done. Even God cannot share that what will not be received.

You see only other fish, the rocky shore, sandy bottom and the sky because that is where you look. It is exceedingly disingenuous to say no one has told you how to develop the proper tools to see more than the obvious. There are endless resources, from The Interior Castle and the Cloud of Unknowing to The Impersonal Life and scriptures and books for every taste. Plunge into all of them and pay attention not to the words, but to how meanings resonate and go with what resonates.

Mystics in every generation and every tradition have said, "Come, and see for yourself. Empty the mind of other fish and whatever they might say (I'm one of them). Look not to the rocky shore, sandy bottom or the sky above." Learn to unlearn, to let go of reason's predominance in your awareness. For the power of reason is such that, in the subtle matters of the Spirit, it is like tenderizing a fish with a sledge hammer.

But no. You prefer to think you are being insulted.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

This is from Wingmakers. Clearly, it is only for those who have ears to hear.​

My Central Message ​

[FONT=MILMJN+Verdana][FONT=MILMJN+Verdana]I convey this message to you whom I have stirred with the sound of my voice. These words are my signature. You may bring your doubt, your fear, your faith, or your courage; it matters not, for you will be touched by the rhythm of my voice. It moves through you like a beam of light that sweeps – if only for a moment – the darkness aside. [/FONT]
[FONT=MILMJN+Verdana]
[FONT=MILMJN+Verdana]I dwell in a frequency of light in which finite beings cannot uncover me. If you search for me, you will fail. I am not found or discovered. I am only realized in oneness, unity, and wholeness. It is the very same oneness that you feel when you are interconnected with all of life, for I am this and this alone. I am [/FONT][FONT=MILMOF+Verdana][FONT=MILMOF+Verdana]all of life[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=MILMJN+Verdana][FONT=MILMJN+Verdana]. If you must search for me, then practice the feeling of wholeness and unity. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=MILMJN+Verdana][FONT=MILMJN+Verdana]In my deepest light I created you from my desire to understand my universe. You are my emissaries. You are free to journey the universe of universes as particles from my infinite womb with destinies that you alone will write. I do not prescribe your journey or your journey’s aim. I only accompany you. I do not pull you this way or that, nor do I punish you when you stray from my heart. This I do as an outcome of my belief in you.[/FONT]

[FONT=MILMJN+Verdana]You are the heirs of my light, which gave you form. It is my voice that awakened you to individuality, but it will be your will that awakens you to our unity. It is your desire to know me as your self that brings you to my presence so perfectly hidden from your world. I am behind everything that you see, hear, touch, taste, smell, feel, and believe. [/FONT]

[FONT=MILMJN+Verdana]I live for your discovery of me. It is the highest expression of my love for you, and while you search for my shadows in the stories of your world, I, the indelible, invisible light, grow increasingly visible. Imagine the furthest point in space – beneath a black portal, cast in some distant galaxy, and then multiply this distance by the highest numeric value you know. Congratulations, you have measured an atom of my body.[/FONT]

[FONT=MILMJN+Verdana]Do you realize how I am unfathomable? I am not what you can know, or see, or understand. I am outside comprehension. My vastness makes me invisible and unavoidable. There is nowhere you can be without me. My absence does not exist. It is this very nature that makes me unique. I am First Cause and Last Effect connected in an undivided chain. [/FONT]

[FONT=MILMJN+Verdana]There is no supplication that stirs me. No prayer that invites me further into your world unless it is attended with the feeling of unity and wholeness. There is no temple or sacred object that touches me. They do not, nor have they ever brought you closer to my outstretched hand. My presence in your world is unalterable for I am the sanctuary of both the cosmos and the one soul inside you. [/FONT]

[FONT=MILMJN+Verdana]I could awaken each of you in this very moment to our unity, but there is a larger design – a more comprehensive vision – that places you in the boundaries of time and the spatial dimensions of separateness. This design requires a progression into my wholeness that reacquaints you with our unity through the experience of separation. Your awakening, while slow and sometimes painful, is assured, and this you must trust above all else. [/FONT]

[FONT=MILMJN+Verdana]I am the ancestral father of all creation. I am a personality that lives inside each of you as a vibration that emanates from all parts of your existence. I reside in this dimension as your beacon. If you follow this vibration, if you place it at the core of your journey, you will contact my personality that lives beneath the particles of your existence. [/FONT]

[FONT=MILMJN+Verdana]I am not to be feared or held in indifference. My presence is immediate, tangible, and real. You are now in my presence. Hear my words. You are in my presence. You are within me more than I am within you. You are the veneer of my mind and heart, and yet you think yourself the product of an ape. You are so much more than you realize. [/FONT]

[FONT=MILMJN+Verdana]Our union was, is, and will be forevermore. You are my blessed offspring with whom I am intricately connected in means that you cannot understand and therefore appreciate. You must suspend your belief and disbelief in what you cannot sense, in exchange for your knowing that I am real and live within you. This is my central message to all my offspring. Hear it well, for in it you may find the place in which I dwell. [/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Runewolf1973]

This is from Wingmakers. Clearly, it is only for those who have ears to hear.​

Thank you for explaining what I've been trying to say all along. Energy is real and it exists. We can't understand it completely, but it effects each and every one of us and everything else that exists. Earth, air, fire, water...body, mind, spirit....and anything else you can think of.....ALL forms of ENERGY!!! The ALL in ALL things.