Does God have Free Will?

[Thief]

A very fallible human history of scripture based on the evidence.

so the evidence......says......we humans are fallible

I don't think we need scripture to show that result

 

[shunyadragon]

so the evidence......says......we humans are fallible

I don't think we need scripture to show that result

The issue is the scripture itself reflects the hand, editing redacting and compilation, of fallible humans by the evidence.

 

[Thief]

The issue is the scripture itself reflects the hand, editing redacting and compilation, of fallible humans by the evidence.

so....scripture is NOT a reflection unto God?

 

[shunyadragon]

so....scripture is NOT a reflection unto God?

There is a difference between scripture being literal word of God and God's Revelation reflected in the scripture written by fallible humans with an ancient world view.

In our dialogue concerning Genesis you put more emphasis on the value of Genesis as scripture and relevance to science than I would. Clearly our views are different, and we disagree..

 

[siti]

...from the Baha'i view scripture of religions is not literally God speaking. It is the human view of God at the times they were written.

I hope we can be forgiven for going off topic but this is very interesting...so that makes the writings of Baha'u'llah a human view of God appropriate to 19th century Persia I suppose? And we also have no genuinely authentic "view of God" because (and this I certainly agree with) even if it is divinely revealed, it still has to be processed through fallible human mental faculties and encoded in human language - by which time the actual 'experience' of God, no matter how genuine, is, of necessity, "dumbed down" to the level of human understanding and the spiritual 'gravitas' of any such experience is 'lost in translation' and 'garbled in transmission' no matter when or where it was received and written down. To get back on topic, that presumably means we have absolutely no way of knowing whether God has 'free will'. Yes?

 

[viole]

Are there any rational grounds for firmly concluding that god, if god exists, has free will?

No. His will is necessarily dictated by perfection, which is assumed to be unique. So, everything that exists is necessary, if God exists. And His will needs to follow that logical necessity.

Ciao

- viole

 

[siti]

His will is necessarily dictated by perfection, which is assumed to be unique. So, everything that exists is necessary, if God exists. And His will needs to follow that logical necessity.

Why? Why must God (if God exists) have anything to do with necessity and perfection?

 

[viole]

Why? Why must God (if God exists) have anything to do with necessity and perfection?

I think it depends on the definitions. Leibniz might have insisted on that.

But given the world we live in, you might have a point. If God existed.

Ciao

- viole

 

[shunyadragon]

I hope we can be forgiven for going off topic but this is very interesting...so that makes the writings of Baha'u'llah a human view of God appropriate to 19th century Persia I suppose? And we also have no genuinely authentic "view of God" because (and this I certainly agree with) even if it is divinely revealed, it still has to be processed through fallible human mental faculties and encoded in human language - by which time the actual 'experience' of God, no matter how genuine, is, of necessity, "dumbed down" to the level of human understanding and the spiritual 'gravitas' of any such experience is 'lost in translation' and 'garbled in transmission' no matter when or where it was received and written down. To get back on topic, that presumably means we have absolutely no way of knowing whether God has 'free will'. Yes?

Fundamentally in the Baha'i Faith God is apophatic unknowable God, that Reveals only the attributes, spiritual principles and teachings progressively over time in the evolving spiritual nature of humanity. Creation is a reflection of the attributes of God as an ever evolving constantly changing process as with all possible universes..

 

[siti]

Leibniz might have insisted on that.

I had a suspicion that's where you might have been coming from - I'm with Voltaire though - we have to tend our own garden rather than wait for God's 'necessity' to make it the 'best possible world'. Whether or not God has free will, if she exists at all she seems not to care too much about perfecting the world so I guess God's possession or lack of 'freewill' is a bit of a moot point anyway.

 

[siti]

Fundamentally in the Baha'i Faith God is apophatic unknowable God, that Reveals only the attributes, spiritual principles and teachings progressively over time in the evolving spiritual nature of humanity.

I'm not sure I am following this but I suspect I might agree to an extent - I don't think "God" is (in principle) unknowable though - I think (I hope) that God is, in fact, amenable to scientific study but that's because...

Creation is a reflection of the attributes of God as an ever evolving constantly changing process as with all possible universes...

...and that is suspiciously close to process theology...which I agree with except I would probably put it the other way round...

God is a reflection of the attributes of an ever evolving, constantly changing process that is "the universe"...

...and that's why "revelation" is progressive - because it is an encapsulation of the evolving process of reality as seen through the evolving process of human culture...

...and seen that way, it is clear (to me) that God really doesn't have free will - God's "will" is dictated by the evolution of nature and culture.

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm not sure I am following this but I suspect I might agree to an extent - I don't think "God" is (in principle) unknowable though - I think (I hope) that God is, in fact, amenable to scientific study but that's because...

The attributes of God are knowable in terms of Revelation, and the science.

[/quote]
...and that is suspiciously close to process theology...which I agree with except I would probably put it the other way round...

God is a reflection of the attributes of an ever evolving, constantly changing process that is "the universe"...[ [/quote]

Goes both ways. God's evolving Creation and Progressive Revelation and the evolving human view of God as humanity spiritually evolves.

...and that's why "revelation" is progressive - because it is an encapsulation of the evolving process of reality as seen through the evolving process of human culture...

OK, except from the Theist perspective the evolving process of human culture reflects the progressive Revelation from God.

...and seen that way, it is clear (to me) that God really doesn't have free will - God's "will" is dictated by the evolution of nature and culture.

Not from the Theist perspective. The nature of our physical existence, and the evolution of life, including both the physical and spiritual evolution of humanity are a manifestation of the attributes of God in Creation.

 

[siti]

OK, except from the Theist perspective the evolving process of human culture reflects the progressive Revelation from God.

Sure - I get that my way of looking at it is explicitly non-theist - but how can we really tell which way round it is? And doesn't the theist perspective throw up a "chasm" in the causal chain that has to be (somehow/ miraculously?) overcome (or how do God's immaterial 'thoughts' come to have actual physical efficacy in the material world?) whereas looking at it the other way it is much more intuitively straightforward to see how "God's thoughts" might emerge from the evolving reality of human culture.

 

[Thief]

freewill is like a loaded pistol
once the shot is dealt
you don't call it back

creation was an act of will
there was no one to oppose it
freely dealt

now that reality is firm
the will to alter it.....at will
must be withheld

 

[siti]

freewill is like a loaded pistol
once the shot is dealt
you don't call it back

creation was an act of will
there was no one to oppose it
freely dealt

now that reality is firm
the will to alter it.....at will
must be withheld

That sounds like deism. But the question is - does God refrain from intervening by choice?

 

[shunyadragon]

Sure - I get that my way of looking at it is explicitly non-theist - but how can we really tell which way round it is? And doesn't the theist perspective throw up a "chasm" in the causal chain that has to be (somehow/ miraculously?) overcome (or how do God's immaterial 'thoughts' come to have actual physical efficacy in the material world?) whereas looking at it the other way it is much more intuitively straightforward to see how "God's thoughts" might emerge from the evolving reality of human culture.

It helps to distinguish between a traditional Theist view and the contemporary view like the Baha'i Faith. There are no such thing as 'God's thoughts' or anything happening miraculously.concerning the nature of our physical existence.

Since God's Creation takes place naturally, and the harmony of science and religion is foundation principle of the Baha'i Faith there is no objective physical evidence either way to determine that God exists nor as you say, which way round is.' There are other reasons for my belief which would be a subject of another thread.

The advantage with the Baha'i view of God is the belief in the natural way of Creation, the harmony of science and religion, and not appealing to the miraculous, and ancient mythology to justify their belief system as other religions, like Christianity, most often do. The view of an anthropomorphic God, narrow limited view of Revelation history and the lack of a universal perspective of all of humanity make ancient religions irrational and not logical.

I do not consider the reference in Titus that 'God does not lie' an issue, because the nature of God in most religions this is obvious in one way or another. If God lies, God would not be God.

 

[Thief]

That sounds like deism. But the question is - does God refrain from intervening by choice?

in report by scripture.......He does not refrain

but then pushing the 'elements'.....earth wind and fire
is not the same as stone to bread

calling someone out of the grave is not the same as
clay to breathing man
(not that I believe the latter)

 

[sojourner]

Just on page 1 there’s a lot of use of the term “God has.” Perhaps we’d do better to think in terms of “God is.”

God is intelligence. God is will. God is self-determination. There is nothing that stands outside God in a perspective that enjoys a vantage point of objective observation or judgment, for God is life and existence, itself.

 

[Thief]

Just on page 1 there’s a lot of use of the term “God has.” Perhaps we’d do better to think in terms of “God is.”

God is intelligence. God is will. God is self-determination. There is nothing that stands outside God in a perspective that enjoys a vantage point of objective observation or judgment, for God is life and existence, itself.

but some people claim they have will
and no credit to God

they don't even believe in Him

 

[sojourner]

but some people claim they have will
and no credit to God

they don't even believe in Him

Ok. Then they ascribe to a different theological construct. Remember: a theological construct is not an empirical fact; it’s a logical formulation based on certain assumptions.