Does God have Free Will?

[siti]

If God lies, God would not be God.

But presumably then God is also not acting with "free will" - if God's "nature" dictates that God cannot lie. But then why did "He" permit ancient mythological tales of an anthropomorphic deity to take "His" place in the minds of men? Is it really the case that humans just a few centuries ago were so intellectually limited that they could not possibly have grasped the "ineffability" of the Baha'i version of God? Or is that, in reality, just another "lie" - albeit a "white" one? After all, the Greeks already had an "unknown god" long before Christ - didn't they? Paul built on that notion of deity - and made God "known" - then Muhammad and later Baha'u'llah seem to have torn down Paul's work and reverted to a more ancient "unknowable" model. That seems more regressive than progressive.

 

[Skwim]

I do not consider the reference in Titus that 'God does not lie' an issue, because the nature of God in most religions this is obvious in one way or another. If God lies, God would not be God.

Looks like god lost his "god" status.

Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet is deceived into giving a message, it is because I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet. I will lift my fist against such prophets and cut them off from the community of Israel.

Jeremiah 20:7
O Lord, You have lied to me and I was fooled. You are stronger than I, and have had power over me. I have been laughed at all day. Everyone makes fun of me.

.​

 

[shunyadragon]

Looks like god lost his "god" status.

Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet is deceived into giving a message, it is because I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet. I will lift my fist against such prophets and cut them off from the community of Israel.

Jeremiah 20:7
O Lord, You have lied to me and I was fooled. You are stronger than I, and have had power over me. I have been laughed at all day. Everyone makes fun of me.

.​

Yes in the OT, the anthropomorphic Gods were not significant Gods.

 

[shunyadragon]

But presumably then God is also not acting with "free will" - if God's "nature" dictates that God cannot lie. But then why did "He" permit ancient mythological tales of an anthropomorphic deity to take "His" place in the minds of men? Is it really the case that humans just a few centuries ago were so intellectually limited that they could not possibly have grasped the "ineffability" of the Baha'i version of God? Or is that, in reality, just another "lie" - albeit a "white" one? After all, the Greeks already had an "unknown god" long before Christ - didn't they? Paul built on that notion of deity - and made God "known" - then Muhammad and later Baha'u'llah seem to have torn down Paul's work and reverted to a more ancient "unknowable" model. That seems more regressive than progressive.

Your still stuck in the anthropomorphic hands on God of ancient mythology. God does not reach down and move humans around like chess pieces allowing or disallowing them to do his will.

Again, again, and again Creation is a natural process, and natural laws, and humans evolve in response to natural processes both physically and spiritually. God did Create a bunch robotic automatons.

 

[siti]

Your still stuck in the anthropomorphic hands on God of ancient mythology. God does not reach down and move humans around like chess pieces allowing or disallowing them to do his will.

So who made Baha'u'llah a "Manifestation" then - God or Baha'u'llah?

Again, again, and again Creation is a natural process, and natural laws, and humans evolve in response to natural processes both physically and spiritually.

And both gods and prophet emerge from that process - warts and all - and some of them are deceived and some are deceivers. Either way though, scripture is always a human invention - isn't it? Then why choose one scriptural tradition over another? Why is later seen to equate to better? Why not just accept all of the scriptural traditions for what they are - expressions of the evolving human art of literature? And if they do at some level, encapsulate spiritual truths about a higher level of reality (aka "God"), surely our conceptions of that reality are destined always to be flawed and God - as perceived and conceptualized by humans - never acts with free will at all but is always and forever subject to the whims and frailties of the human intellect? Imagining God as a free agent is nothing more than an excuse for our own failings.

 

[Skwim]

Yes in the OT, the anthropomorphic Gods were not significant Gods.

Errr . . . the god of Abraham is now god of the two largest religions on the globe.

.

 

[shunyadragon]

Errr . . . the god of Abraham is now god of the two largest religions on the globe.

.

This is a human construct of an ancient anthropomorphic God, and not God.

 

[Sammaiel]

An all-knowing, perfect entity cannot have free will. All of it's action would be inherently perfect, and there is only one possible perfect action.

Of course, that entity could make different choice over unimportant matters ( IF unimportant matters do exist at all ) but free will, as defined by most religions, is the ability to make moral choices. Ultimately, it's the ability to make errors.

 

[Thief]

Ok. Then they ascribe to a different theological construct.

no really .....I meant it....

some people claim they have freewill.....and give NO credit to God
they don't believe He exists

 

[Thief]

This is human construct of an ancient anthropomorphic God, and not God.

and you know the construct OF God?

 

[shunyadragon]

So who made Baha'u'llah a "Manifestation" then - God or Baha'u'llah?

Baha'u'llah was born of natural parents like all humans.

And both gods and prophet emerge from that process - warts and all - and some of them are deceived and some are deceivers. Either way though, scripture is always a human invention - isn't it?

No, too simplistic from a non-Theist humanist perspective.

Then why choose one scriptural tradition over another? Why is later seen to equate to better? Why not just accept all of the scriptural traditions for what they are - expressions of the evolving human art of literature? And if they do at some level, encapsulate spiritual truths about a higher level of reality (aka "God"), surely our conceptions of that reality are destined always to be flawed and God - as perceived and conceptualized by humans - never acts with free will at all but is always and forever subject to the whims and frailties of the human intellect? Imagining God as a free agent is nothing more than an excuse for our own failings.

You are presenting a non-Theist humanist perspective, which is OK, but I go not agree.

 

[shunyadragon]

and you know the construct OF God?

I believe in God, but I do not know the construct God

 

[Thief]

I believe in God, but I do not know the construct God

so how then to critique someone else's construct?

 

[Skwim]

This is a human construct of an ancient anthropomorphic God, and not God.

So, what is this god you have in mind that's more "significant" than the most popular god in the world, the god of Abraham?

.

 

[siti]

Baha'u'llah was born of natural parents like all humans.

This much I know - my question was about he became a "Manifestation" - by God's free will or his own?

 

[shunyadragon]

This much I know - my question was about he became a "Manifestation" - by God's free will or his own?

God's Will

 

[shunyadragon]

So, what is this god you have in mind that's more "significant" than the most popular god in the world, the god of Abraham?

.

It is not a matter of which God, and God is not subject to a popularity contest by fallible humans. A God that is the Creator of all of our physical existence, and not molded into one cultural anthropomorphic image such as in Christianity.

The God of Abraham is the same God as all the religions of the world without regard to the images constructed by humans.

 

[shunyadragon]

and you know the construct OF God?

I thought I might add, that the different religions mold the 'Source' some call God(s) in their own cultural image, and often an anthropomorphic construct image based on ancient scripture steeped in mythology. I 'believe' in a more universal God that is not molded in a cultural image of any one religion, belief system or church.

 

[sojourner]

no really .....I meant it....

some people claim they have freewill.....and give NO credit to God
they don't believe He exists

Ok... they ascribe to a different theological construct. It happens.

 

[Thief]

I thought I might add, that the different religions mold the 'Source' some call God(s) in their own cultural image, and often an anthropomorphic construct image based on ancient scripture steeped in mythology. I 'believe' in a more universal God that is not molded in a cultural image of any one religion, belief system or church.

more like....the Force be with you.....?