Does God take humanity seriously?

[839311]

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A static-state perfect existance lasting an eternity would actually be a hell.

Probably.

Think about it; no challenges to overcome; no new things to learn; no new experiences to have; nothing to think/debate about; nothing to wonder about...

I agree, all those are good. I'm in favor of them all.

I think the creator knows we need to struggle/grow/struggle/grow etc. to be happy.

Growth sounds good. I think that struggles and challenges can be good things. But not all kinds of struggles and challenges. I think there is a fine line somewhere separating positive struggles and negative stuggles.

Imagine that you are highly advanced - you can't experience pain or sadness or suffering of any kind. But, you have limited knowledge and understanding. So, this would be a challenge, and you would struggle to overcome your ignorance. Maybe your struggle will take you across the galaxy. That would be a good challenge. Maybe it would keep you busy for a million years. Meantime, you would enjoy every step of the way, never experiencing sadness or depression or pain of any kind. This is the kind of scenario I would expect would be very popular among immortals.

On the other hand we have a different kind of scenario. You are on earth, struggling to survive, dying of starvation. You are in a state of desperation. You've lost your family. You've just been raped. Your ill, with a broken leg. A brutal civil war has been raging in your country for years, and your stuck in the middle of it. I think that this scenario is crossing that fine line I was talking about. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't sign up for such a life. I find it difficult to think that anyone would want to experience this kind of a life, let alone if great options like the one I mentioned first are available to choose from. Yet some people on earth live in conditions as bad as that, or maybe worse. Think about fraulein freisel, who was locked up in a dungeon by her father, raped and sodomized most days - often infront of the kids who she had with her father because of the rapes. Think about the caterpillars and spiders who are paralyzed by wasps, and kept alive so the wasp's young can feed on them. Is this an acceptable level of struggle? Isn't it reasonable to think than an omnipotent, benevolent deity would set limits on pain and suffering and evil? I think he would. But those limits don't seem to exist in our world.

With the overall trajectory of spiritual advancement.

Under the conditions of immortality and eternity, even this would eventually lose meaning, I think. Assuming there is a finish line, you'd eventually reach it. Reset button?

 

[George-ananda]

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Imagine that you are highly advanced - you can't experience pain or sadness or suffering of any kind. But, you have limited knowledge and understanding. So, this would be a challenge, and you would struggle to overcome your ignorance. Maybe your struggle will take you across the galaxy. That would be a good challenge. Maybe it would keep you busy for a million years. Meantime, you would enjoy every step of the way, never experiencing sadness or depression or pain of any kind. This is the kind of scenario I would expect would be very popular among immortals.

There is a mind-boggling number of immortals in existance and some are doing just as you stated. There are a variety of learning experiences your hypothetical immortal can not have. Can he learn suffering and sacrifice for the benefit of others, can he learn to love and assist someone who may be badly dysfunctional, etc.. All these learnings are part of the spiritual advancement of a soul.

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On the other hand we have a different kind of scenario. You are on earth, struggling to survive, dying of starvation. You are in a state of desperation. You've lost your family. You've just been raped. Your ill, with a broken leg. A brutal civil war has been raging in your country for years, and your stuck in the middle of it. I think that this scenario is crossing that fine line I was talking about. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't sign up for such a life. I find it difficult to think that anyone would want to experience this kind of a life, let alone if great options like the one I mentioned first are available to choose from. Yet some people on earth live in conditions as bad as that, or maybe worse. Think about fraulein freisel, who was locked up in a dungeon by her father, raped and sodomized most days - often infront of the kids who she had with her father because of the rapes. Think about the caterpillars and spiders who are paralyzed by wasps, and kept alive so the wasp's young can feed on them. Is this an acceptable level of struggle? Isn't it reasonable to think than an omnipotent, benevolent deity would set limits on pain and suffering and evil? I think he would. But those limits don't seem to exist in our world.

So you are asking why God doesn't intervene when suffering crosses an acceptable threshold. First, all earthly experiences are very temporary in the cosmic sense of time. They do end in God's plan. So the next question is probably why are some humans dealt a great hand and some a terrible hand. Well to understand that I go back to that long, long multi-dimensional painting I talked about in my earlier post. Seeing the full length of each soul's experience would be needed to make sense of it.

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Under the conditions of immortality and eternity, even this would eventually lose meaning, I think. Assuming there is a finish line, you'd eventually reach it. Reset button?

Yes, there is a finish line at the end of the epochs. We merge into Universal Conciousness and let go of all trace of ego and separateness. I believe there is a reset button. Hinduism speaks of something incredible like the day/night of Brahma (the name they use for the creator). Even Brahma has its end and merges into Brahman which is the impersonal basis ground (the screen upon which this movie plays). My mind reels at this point. Fortunately all I really need to know now is to lead the most spiritual life I can.

 

[839311]

There is a mind-boggling number of immortals in existance and some are doing just as you stated.

How do you know? If you said 'I believe', I wouldn't have asked. Not that I expect you to have any compelling evidence, but Im not going to let you run around RF making such claims unchallenged Knockout

So you are asking why God doesn't intervene when suffering crosses an acceptable threshold. First, all earthly experiences are very temporary in the cosmic sense of time. They do end in God's plan. So the next question is probably why are some humans dealt a great hand and some a terrible hand. Well to understand that I go back to that long, long multi-dimensional painting I talked about in my earlier post. Seeing the full length of each soul's experience would be needed to make sense of it.

I think your explanation falls well short of justifying the extremes of suffering and pain experienced by some people. Not much else I want to add to my previous posts at this point.

Yes, there is a finish line at the end of the epochs. We merge into Universal Conciousness and let go of all trace of ego and separateness. I believe there is a reset button. Hinduism speaks of something incredible like the day/night of Brahma (the name they use for the creator). Even Brahma has its end and merges into Brahman which is the impersonal basis ground (the screen upon which this movie plays). My mind reels at this point.

The ideas in Hinduism really have great depth. Ive always thought that Hinduism is the greatest of religions, and still do.

Not that I have faith, and I have to ask, what is your faith based on? Especially as it is the kind of faith that would make someone say the following...

Fortunately all I really need to know now is to lead the most spiritual life I can.

To say thats all you really need to know tells me that your more or less planning to dedicate your life to spirituality.

I think there is much more to experience in life besides spirituality. Aren't you concerned that you may put too much focus on spirituality and miss out on other experiences life has to offer?

 

[George-ananda]

How do you know? If you said 'I believe', I wouldn't have asked. Not that I expect you to have any compelling evidence, but Im not going to let you run around RF making such claims unchallenged Knockout

Well I should preface every statement I make on RF with 'I believe' but at certain points I assume it's implied. I know there are no universally accepted facts dealing with spirituality;

I think your explanation falls well short of justifying the extremes of suffering and pain experienced by some people. Not much else I want to add to my previous posts at this point.

Well my point again is that we can't make that judgement because our perspective is far, far too limited. Maya (illusion in Hinduism) makes us prejudiced to believe that only the world we're living in is real and important. Let me preface that last sentence with 'I believe'.

The ideas in Hinduism really have great depth. Ive always thought that Hinduism is the greatest of religions, and still do.

Not that I have faith, and I have to ask, what is your faith based on? Especially as it is the kind of faith that would make someone say the following...



To say thats all you really need to know tells me that your more or less planning to dedicate your life to spirituality.

I think there is much more to experience in life besides spirituality. Aren't you concerned that you may put too much focus on spirituality and miss out on other experiences life has to offer?

Well after years of study and thought on the paranormal and spirituality I BELIEVE that Advaita Vedanta (non-dual Hinduism) is the deepest and most true explanation. And I have gained deep respect for the wisdom and love of the tradition's great teachers.

Now to your next point: Missing out on what? I continue to experience and enjoy all types of wholesome studies and hobbies. As for the non-wholesome experiences (drugs,alcohol,sex, etc.) you after awhile lose interest in these as child toys.

 

[839311]

Well I should preface every statement I make on RF with 'I believe' but at certain points I assume it's implied.

I don't think its a good thing that truth claims should be assumed to be based on faith. Once in a while I come across people on RF whose beliefs are based on something more tangible than just faith.

Let me preface that last sentence with 'I believe'.

I BELIEVE

Thats better!

:run:

Missing out on what? I continue to experience and enjoy all types of wholesome studies and hobbies.

Thats good to hear. I was wondering whether you were on your way to becoming a spiritual recluse living in some temple in the middle of nowhere. Not the best life, I think, though I suppose for some people it is the best life, or at least it can be for a time.

What about different ways of thinking, like, say, skepticism? I can tell you from personal experience that skepticism is a rewarding way of thought.

As for the non-wholesome experiences (drugs,alcohol,sex, etc.) you after awhile lose interest in these as child toys.

You can make a good argument that drugs and alcohol are non-wholesome, but sex?

:sarcastic

 

[George-ananda]

What about different ways of thinking, like, say, skepticism? I can tell you from personal experience that skepticism is a rewarding way of thought.

I am a skeptic. I require evidence and reason before I accept anything. In spirituality we cannot have perfect proof/disproof of anything but it would impoverish the human intellect to say we can then have no opinion on these matters.

Nowadays, the term skeptic has been hijacked by what I call closed-minded pseudo-skeptics. Their prejudice has moved them beyond evidence and reason into a no-holds-bar attack on anything that smacks of god, spirituality or the paranormal. They are for the most part defenders of atheistic materialism. They're entitled to their opinion but the term skeptic should not be applied. Now my blood pressure is up!

You can make a good argument that drugs and alcohol are non-wholesome, but sex?

:sarcastic

I should have been clearer but I was of course referring to inappropriate sexual behavior. I know people can define appropriate/inappropriate behavior differently but that's off the drift of this thread.

 

[839311]

Now my blood pressure is up!

I'd say! I didn't mean to do that. But, thats just something that is part of having a discussion about our deepest held beliefs. This section of RF is particularly volatile, even when its not meant to be.

I know this post is likely to get your blood pressure up even higher. But I'm not finished here yet Knockout

I am a skeptic. I require evidence and reason before I accept anything.

I disagree. See, you can't say that you require evidence and reason before you accept anything, and then go and accept truth claims such as these...

Yes, there is a finish line at the end of the epochs. We merge into Universal Conciousness and let go of all trace of ego and separateness. I believe there is a reset button. Hinduism speaks of something incredible like the day/night of Brahma (the name they use for the creator). Even Brahma has its end and merges into Brahman which is the impersonal basis ground (the screen upon which this movie plays). My mind reels at this point.

I'm sure the list of beliefs you hold are far more numerous than just these. But what evidence are they based on? Books. You can't be a skeptic and at the same time accept such ideas when all your basing your acceptance on is a book.

Nowadays, the term skeptic has been hijacked by what I call closed-minded pseudo-skeptics. Their prejudice has moved them beyond evidence and reason into a no-holds-bar attack on anything that smacks of god, spirituality or the paranormal. They are for the most part defenders of atheistic materialism. They're entitled to their opinion but the term skeptic should not be applied.

lol!! That was awesome!

 

[George-ananda]

I'd say! I didn't mean to do that. But, thats just something that is part of having a discussion about our deepest held beliefs. This section of RF is particularly volatile, even when its not meant to be.

I know this post is likely to get your blood pressure up even higher. But I'm not finished here yet Knockout



I disagree. See, you can't say that you require evidence and reason before you accept anything, and then go and accept truth claims such as these...


I'm sure the list of beliefs you hold are far more numerous than just these. But what evidence are they based on? Books. You can't be a skeptic and at the same time accept such ideas when all your basing your acceptance on is a book.



lol!! That was awesome!

Now about my blood pressure comment. It was a joke about how close-minded skeptics make me mad, nothing about your comments.

Now about our latest bone of contention. I say I'm a skeptic but you say I can't be because of some of the beliefs I hold. I said a skeptic requires strong evidence and reason before he accepts something. Now most skeptics would say they believe in evolution (because strong evidence and reason support the belief). So even skeptics have beliefs.

So when I applied skeptical thinking to all these many issues I concluded things like;

I do not accept Catholicism (the religion of my tradition)

I do not accept the dogma of conservative Christianity

I do accept evolution

I do not accept materialist, reductionist atheism

I do believe evidence for the paranormal is overwhelming but mainly ignored due to scientific prejudice

I do believe Advaita philosophy (non-dual Hinduism) presents the deepest and truest understanding of the metaphysical.

etc,. etc


So in employing skepticism I have determined what I reject/accept/or remain undecided on.

I think a lot of this argument comes down to where you put your threshold on stating whether you reject/accept/stay-undecided. Even hard-core skeptics must have some UNDEFINABLE threshold if they accept evolution, big-bang, etc..

Now each of my beliefs and disbeliefs I would offer up for debate and (after thousands of rebuttal posts of course) I believe my position would stand (or I wouldn't have taken that stand in the first place). Also as I am not perfect some evidence and reason may come to light to cause me to change/modify/re-state my position. It's a growth process as nobody knows everything.

 

[839311]

Now most skeptics would say they believe in evolution (because strong evidence and reason support the belief). So even skeptics have beliefs.

Pfff, wannabees! I question evolution too, as much evidence as there is for it. Maybe God did plant all the fossils everywhere and set up all other information to point to evolution haha. Its possible! Theres actually one good reason to think he might have, among all the half-baked religious answers out there. Also, this could just be a computer simulation started in the year 8453 BC which had evolution in mind too. In any case, its possible that it never happened in our world. Thats my true skeptical perspective of it. And it is just as valid as my practical perspective.
But its not very useful outside of philosophy lol.

For practical purposes, we have to work with what we've got, and we've got lots of fossils, and mountain chains of evidence that support evolution. And we have real problems in the world. To think that they aren't real, is the wrong approach to take, because it might produce a kind of indifference to problems. They may be real, and thus demand our attention.

I do accept evolution..

Pfff. See above.

I do not accept materialist, reductionist atheism.

Depends on what ideas materialist, reductioninst covers. Atheism is a valid possiblitity in my books, certainly not something that should be dismissed outright - unless you are justified to do so. I doubt you are.

I do believe evidence for the paranormal is overwhelming but mainly ignored due to scientific prejudice.

I disagree here. All I'll say is that the evidence is definetly not overwhelming, otherwise there would be a lot more people believing in it. The paranormal world covers a lot of ground, too. Aliens probably fall under that category, ghosts, swamp monsters lol. Im not sure what exactly you accept under this wide umbrella. I question it all. Having said that, I have experienced things in my life which might have been paranormal. In what way, I have no idea. I'm open-minded about that too lol.

I do believe Advaita philosophy (non-dual Hinduism) presents the deepest and truest understanding of the metaphysical.

So in employing skepticism I have determined what I reject/accept/or remain undecided on.

We've covered this one already so I won't try to tear you apart here again

I think a lot of this argument comes down to where you put your threshold on stating whether you reject/accept/stay-undecided. Even hard-core skeptics must have some UNDEFINABLE threshold if they accept evolution, big-bang, etc..

I agree, I think that threshold is different for different people. Under your definition, your a skeptic, and thats fine. Under my definition, even people who accept the big bang and evolution might not be skeptics. In my world, truths are few and far between. Only things Im absolutely certain are sound qualify as truth. Everything else is open to skepticism.

I was just on the wiki entry for philosophical skepticism. I found this.

"Indeed, for Hellenistic philosophers claiming that at least one thing is certain makes one a dogmatist."

Looks like we're both dogmatists to some people. The word skepticism looks like it might be a word like God, where every person has some different understanding of it.

 

[George-ananda]

I agree, I think that threshold is different for different people. Under your definition, your a skeptic, and thats fine. Under my definition, even people who accept the big bang and evolution might not be skeptics. In my world, truths are few and far between. Only things Im absolutely certain are sound qualify as truth. Everything else is open to skepticism.

Well, I guess that makes me a skeptic but not a hard-core skeptic. I'm good with that.

Well as for my beliefs you critiqued in the first part of the post. Defending each one would of course turn in to dozens of posts/rebuttals and be a tangent to this thread. I'm new and enjoying RF so I'm sure these beliefs will come up on other threads and you can jab at my beliefs and expect to be jabbed back.

As for the main point of this thread:

Does God take humanity seriously? My answer would be YES. Would your answer be somewhere in-between 'No' and "we don't have enough information'?

"Indeed, for Hellenistic philosophers claiming that at least one thing is certain makes one a dogmatist."

Now that quote I found entertaining

 

[839311]

Well as for my beliefs you critiqued in the first part of the post. Defending each one would of course turn in to dozens of posts/rebuttals and be a tangent to this thread. I'm new and enjoying RF so I'm sure these beliefs will come up on other threads and you can jab at my beliefs and expect to be jabbed back.

You'll find that threads get off topic quite often. No one really cares, I think, its just how conversations develop. I don't care myself - but your right we should all still at least try to stick to the topic.

Does God take humanity seriously? My answer would be YES. Would your answer be somewhere in-between 'No' and "we don't have enough information'?

My answer would depend on what God is like. If God is omnipotent, motivated, benevolent, and the most intelligent being in the universe, then I would say he does care. I would naturally assume he has everything under control.

If God is omnipotent, the most intelligent being in the universe, and a douche, then I wouldn't know. He might care, and might actually be the cause of much suffering and pain and evil because he'd get a kick out of it. Or, he might not even notice us and not be involved with earth at all.

He might be benevolent, but really lazy. He'd want to help, but wouldn't have the motivation to get off the couch and do something. This is a real possibility as well. Maybe after 10 trillion eternities he's gotten so bored with it all that he just wants to lie there and space out, do drugs all the time or something. Maybe hes a complete drug addict on an 5 trillion eternity long drug binge, completely oblivious to all the civilizations of reality that are wondering about what hes up to...

Now that quote I found entertaining

Those hellenistic skeptics are extremists if you ask me.