Does God take humanity seriously?

[sojourner]

What about option C) existence with no suffering. Is that too much to ******* ask of an omnipotent deity?

Well, since that obviously isn't the case in reality, it represents wishful thinking. Unless, of course, you can prove that such a state is possible?

Can you?

Can you prove that such a state is possible?

If not, then you have no case.

 

[839311]

My question for you is this: If you don't see God in the universe, why would you ask the question, "Does God take humanity seriously?"

He might exist. The fact that I don't see any evidence of his existence doesn't mean he doesn't exist. If he does exist, then that might have big implications for us. Unless he doesn't care about humanity and doesn't take us seriously, hence the question.

 

[839311]

Well, since that obviously isn't the case in reality, it represents wishful thinking. Unless, of course, you can prove that such a state is possible?

Can you?

Can you prove that such a state is possible?

No problem. Two scenarios come to mind. One, we genticallly engineer ourselves to get rid of pain, anger, sadness, and all other negative traits, as well as becoming immortal and creating a perfect world, whatever that would be like. Seems possible enough to me. Unless you can think of some roadblocks that technology and hard work couldn't overcome?

The second one is a matrix like world where you are plugged into a computer program that is prewritten and you live a perfect life, free of everything negative. Seems possible to me.

 

[Road Warrior]

so what?
doesn't change the fact that religious stories is just a way for mankind to understand he doesn't fully understand.

In many cases that is true such as creation stories. OTOH, religious texts such as the Bible, contain a lot of knowledge such as codes of law, wisdom, teachings for health, etc.

The scientific method is a great tool for understanding what is inside our Universe. It only has a limited usage for understanding what is outside of it.

 

[Road Warrior]

What about option C) existence with no suffering. Is that too much to ******* ask of an omnipotent deity?

What would be the purpose? How can we know love or heat if we don't understand indifference or cold? How can we understand joy without suffering?

Would a good parent lock their child up in their room and wrap them in bubble-wrap all for their own protection?

In order to learn and grow, it is important to understand things like suffering. Ever hear the story of Siddhartha Gautama's upbringing where his father tried to protect him from seeing suffering? Birth and Childhood of Siddhartha

 

[839311]

What would be the purpose?

Enjoy a perfect life.

How can we understand joy without suffering?

Easily, I would think. It doesn't seem like a problem at all.

Would a good parent lock their child up in their room and wrap them in bubble-wrap all for their own protection?

I think this example is comically off-beat lol, but anyways. Its not about protection. Its about whether pain is a desirable part of life, or not. Im saying it isn't, and even in the odd cases where it might be beneficial in some way, it should come in small, controlled doses. But hey, its possible that a good god would create a ****** world like this. The conditions under which it might be acceptable, is if it was optional, and only allowed to be chosen by beings who are mature enough to know what they are getting themselves into. If people are actually immortal, then occasionally, at some points throughout eternity, they may get bored and choose a life on earth, or maybe if they want a difficult challenge. I think thats possible. Im not sold on it, but Id have to actually experience immortality to be able to say for sure.

In order to learn and grow, it is important to understand things like suffering.

Its not hard to understand suffering. Its painful.

 

[Road Warrior]

Enjoy a perfect life.

Like a cow or the Eloi in H. G. Wells' "The Time Machine"?

Its not hard to understand suffering. Its painful.

How would a person know that without experiencing it?

 

[839311]

Like a cow or the Eloi in H. G. Wells' "The Time Machine"?

I havn't read the book, but based on your previous bubble boy example and the cow, Id say its probably just as bad as these two. Your examples are the worst lol

How would a person know that without experiencing it?

Lets say your right. Let them experience it for a moment, or a day or something. Install pain receptors on their body and then break their arm and leg. And install sadness into their systems and overload these receptors so that they fall into a terrible boat of depression and misery. Then, after an hour or so, uninstall the pain receptors and sadness. That way they will know how crappy pain and sadness are, for whatever thats worth, and can go back to enjoying a life that is free of pain and sadness.

 

[839311]

I hope your not making the argument that pain and sadness should forever remain a part of an immortal person's life. But, if thats the way you want it, go ahead. Enjoy! But leave me out of it.

 

[sojourner]

No problem. Two scenarios come to mind. One, we genticallly engineer ourselves to get rid of pain, anger, sadness, and all other negative traits, as well as becoming immortal and creating a perfect world, whatever that would be like. Seems possible enough to me. Unless you can think of some roadblocks that technology and hard work couldn't overcome?

The second one is a matrix like world where you are plugged into a computer program that is prewritten and you live a perfect life, free of everything negative. Seems possible to me.

I didn't say "Imagine such a state." I said, "prove such a state."

One can imagine all kinds of things, such as flying spaghetti monsters.

 

[sojourner]

He might exist. The fact that I don't see any evidence of his existence doesn't mean he doesn't exist. If he does exist, then that might have big implications for us. Unless he doesn't care about humanity and doesn't take us seriously, hence the question.

And just as God "might exist," God "might have created the universe."
Why the double standard? Why do I have to provide evidence and you do not?

 

[Vultar]

If there was a "god", this god could simply form the clouds in every country in the language of that country to say "god is watching you". I'm sure that people would not be able to deny that. But since "god" appears to be absent, it would be reasonable to believe that "god" either doesn't exist or doesn't care about the what happens on earth. Maybe "god" is just playing with "Earth 2.0" and our Earth 1.0 is just in the bottom of his closet underneath some socks.

 

[Road Warrior]

But since "god" appears to be absent, it would be reasonable to believe that "god" either doesn't exist or doesn't care about the what happens on earth.

Both are possibilities, but not the only possibilities. A parent can be very interested in their child, but choose to avoid interfering in childish arguments or adventures simply because they recognize the child needs to learn these things on their own if they are to grow and mature.

Another viewpoint would be something like this joke:

Spoiler: Preacher and the Flood

A storm descends on a small town, and the downpour soon turns into a flood. As the waters rise, the local preacher kneels in prayer on the church porch, surrounded by water. By and by, one of the townsfolk comes up the street in a canoe. "Better get in, Preacher. The waters are rising fast." "No," says the preacher. "I have faith in the Lord. He will save me." Still the waters rise. Now the preacher is up on the balcony, wringing his hands in supplication, when another guy zips up in a motorboat. "Come on, Preacher. We need to get you out of here. The levee's gonna break any minute."

Once again, the preacher is unmoved. "I shall remain. The Lord will see me through."

After a while the levee breaks, and the flood rushes over the church until only the steeple remains above water. The preacher is up there, clinging to the cross, when a helicopter descends out of the clouds, and a state trooper calls down to him through a megaphone.

"Grab the ladder, Preacher. This is your last chance."

Once again, the preacher insists the Lord will deliver him.

And, predictably, he drowns.

A pious man, the preacher goes to heaven. After a while he gets an interview with God, and he asks the Almighty, "Lord, I had unwavering faith in you. Why didn't you deliver me from that flood?"

God shakes his head. "What did you want from me? I sent you two boats and a helicopter."

 

[Penumbra]

Random Related Thoughts of the Day:

I was reading the other day about the tarantula hawk.

It's a big wasp (with the second most painful sting in the insect world), that specifically hunts out tarantulas. What it does is, it finds a tarantula, and stings it, which paralyzes the tarantula for life. Then it drags the tarantula back to its own burial hole, and lays an egg on its abdomen. The egg hatches, and the larva begins feasting on the still-alive tarantula for a number of weeks, avoiding vital organs. Eventually the tarantula dies, and the new tarantula hawk leaves to complete the cycle.

I wonder which people would find more palatable; that this was due to random development, or due to providence.

.....

It seems to me that most defenses of suffering of humans and other species, that is, defenses of the problem of evil or suffering, explicitly hinge on either a) a history which disagrees with consensus scientific opinion (like the earth got corrupted or whatever due to human sin, despite mass extinctions, and hunting and the hunted, occurring before humanity ever existed), or b) some rather un-evidenced proposition that there exists a meaningful afterlife that not only makes up for, but specifically benefits from, suffering in this life. In other words, few would say that this life is all there is, and this life is perfect. The proposition of perfection usually hinges on some unseen promise, and even then, typically does a poor job of taking into account the intricacies of suffering or suboptimal design.

.....

I find it interesting when a person believes that a god gives them messages, or walks them through their day in some way (or helps their favorite sports team), when at the same time, countless humans are starving, and even more naturally, countless creatures are going through the natural cycle of life and death that nature goes through over millions of years. Through mass extinctions and every-day hunts, I find it curious that people believe that any individual element would be appreciated or considered valuable by the highest order of the system.

What level of concern do humans give to the living cells that live and die and make up their body? If only cells could think, I wonder if they'd view us as gods, and concern themselves with whether we care for their well being or not.

 

[waitasec]

In many cases that is true such as creation stories. OTOH, religious texts such as the Bible, contain a lot of knowledge such as codes of law, wisdom, teachings for health, etc.

The scientific method is a great tool for understanding what is inside our Universe. It only has a limited usage for understanding what is outside of it.

not really, ultimately it came from man.

 

[Road Warrior]

not really, ultimately it came from man.

Not really? Who said it wasn't written by man or are you just being contrarian?

 

[waitasec]

Not really? Who said it wasn't written by man or are you just being contrarian?

contrarian, i like that word...

it seemed as though in the post i responded to, you were implying that knowledge, codes of law, wisdom and teachings of health and so forth are exclusively from the bible, and generally the bible is understood as the word of god.

sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Road Warrior]

Sorry if I was unclear. What I specifically said was "religious texts such as the Bible". In the days before Gutenberg, if a nomadic tribe had any book at all (and someone who knew how to read it), then it was usually a book, set of scrolls or other documents like the Bible. If the tribe members needed guidance, they'd consult with the person(s) in charge of taking care of the book(s).

Over thousands of years, such documents would be very important to the survival of the tribe since, as Eleanor Roosevelt once said, "Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself."

 

[waitasec]

Sorry if I was unclear. What I specifically said was "religious texts such as the Bible". In the days before Gutenberg, if a nomadic tribe had any book at all (and someone who knew how to read it), then it was usually a book, set of scrolls or other documents like the Bible. If the tribe members needed guidance, they'd consult with the person(s) in charge of taking care of the book(s).

Over thousands of years, such documents would be very important to the survival of the tribe since, as Eleanor Roosevelt once said, "Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself."

very well put.
what i said about religious stories being a way to understand what mankind doesn't understand is that the religious stories we have today have evolved into new meanings because we thought we knew, we didn't.

 

[839311]

I didn't say "Imagine such a state." I said, "prove such a state."

You said prove that its possible. I did that. Also, think about your own life and the moments or experiences you've had that you could honestly say were perfect. Two come to mind for me, and thats just off the top of my head. That is not only proof that perfection is possible, but that it exists.