does hinduism accept christ as a prophet/god

[Vinayaka]

I am sure you light a small lit fire during poojā, am I correct?

M.V.

Of course ... a kuthavillakku stays lit from the beginning to the end of my sadhana, and homa/havan at the temple, and aarti both at home and at temple are all part of it. But many Christians as far as I can guess, I'm not that familiar with it, use candles a lot too. (The only reason I know this is that I have had to explain to many converts here and elsewhere that candles aren't the traditional Hindu light ... that ghee is.)

 

[Jainarayan]

...something I don't believe even existed is Jesus. You seem to believe such a person did exist. I actually don't.

He may not have existed as an individual. There is precious little historical evidence of him. The Greeks and Romans were notorious for writing everything down. We know how Greek and Latin of the time sounded because they wrote grammar books. So why nothing about someone as important as Jesus? Maybe because there was nothing for them to write about. Personally, fwiw, he may have been an amalgam of persons; after all, someone wrote his sayings. I keep saying the same thing about Homer and Lao Tzu. There is doubt that either of them were a single person, but rather a group of people who wrote, and were given a pen name.

 

[Vinayaka]

He may not have existed as an individual. There is precious little historical evidence of him. The Greeks and Romans were notorious for writing everything down. We know how Greek and Latin of the time sounded because they wrote grammar books. So why nothing about someone as important as Jesus? Maybe because there was nothing for them to write about. Personally, fwiw, he may have been an amalgam of persons; after all, someone wrote his sayings. I keep saying the same thing about Homer and Lao Tzu. There is doubt that either of them were a single person, but rather a group of people who wrote, and were given a pen name.

Yeah, it matters not. Gosh, I must be bored today to continue with this. Good thing Boss has some food prepared.

 

[Jainarayan]

But many Christians as far as I can guess, I'm not that familiar with it, use candles a lot too.

Yes, Christians, Buddhists, Taoists, Wiccans and a host of other religions use candles or burning lamps of some kind. In fact for those groups candles are used almost exclusively if for nothing other than convenience. Christian churches have shrines with rows and rows of small votive candles in glass holders on rolling metal multi-level stands. The effect is not unlike the deepas at Diwali.

 

[Poeticus]

You're missing my point... my point is that to the Jews their prayers and sacrifices are correct for them. Your position is no different than that of the Christians who say that one who is not Christian cannot be "saved". It's that elitism that makes me, for one, to be embarrassed to be associated with any group, religious or cultural. If it was the duty of our Hindu forefathers to pass these traditions down, they did a pretty ****-poor job of it if they kept it from Jews, Africans, Chinese, Ainu, Inuit, or at the least didn't get it to them. Sanātana Dharma belongs to everyone, not just desis, and comes in all the languages ever spoken by humans, and even to Alpha Centaurii, if they exist. So on the one hand it's a virtue that Hindus don't proselytize, yet on the other it keeps Hinduism from other cultures, and it's the fault of those other cultures that they are ignorant of the truth? Oh please!

Namaste,

You misunderstand me. I never said Hinduism is just for desis. Where did I say such a thing?

Listen, if you would like to worship Jesus, be my guest. Just don't find justification for it in the Shruti texts.

M.V.

 

[Jainarayan]

Yeah, it matters not. Gosh, I must be bored today to continue with this. Good thing Boss has some food prepared.

Me too... I've broken my own rule about not talking about it anymore. But it's history, historical and comparative linguistics, and comparative religion that intrigues me.

 

[Poeticus]

Of course ... a kuthavillakku stays lit from the beginning to the end of my sadhana, and homa/havan at the temple, and aarti both at home and at temple are all part of it. But many Christians as far as I can guess, I'm not that familiar with it, use candles a lot too. (The only reason I know this is that I have had to explain to many converts here and elsewhere that candles aren't the traditional Hindu light ... that ghee is.)

Namaste,

My point exactly.

M.V.

 

[Jainarayan]

Namaste,

You misunderstand me. I never said Hinduism is just for desks. Where did I say such a thing?

By saying that "our Hindu forefathers" passed the tradition down. To whom? To the Celts? To the Greeks? To the Australian Aboriginal peoples? To the Native Americans? To my Italian ancestors? To whom did they pass it down? Who has access to the Vedas? Indian women didn't even have access to the Vedas, for **** sakes. And they were ostensibly Hindu. No one had access to the Vedas except the brahmins who lorded them over people, and that is exactly what the Buddha railed against. But 2/3 of the world's population knows the gospels. Now why is this?

Listen, if you would like to worship Jesus, be my guest. Just don't find justification for it the Shruti texts.

M.V.

You're strawmanning. I don't worship him, I never said I do, and I never said there is evidence or justification for him in any Hindu texts. I'm saying to keep it real.

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste,

You're missing my point... my point is that to the Jews their prayers and sacrifices are correct for them. Your position is no different than that of the Christians who say that one who is not Christian cannot be "saved".

I never suggested anything of that note. You are putting words in my mouth.

It's that elitism that makes me, for one, to be embarrassed to be associated with any group, religious or cultural. If it was the duty of our Hindu forefathers to pass these traditions down, they did a pretty ****-poor job of it if they kept it from Jews, Africans, Chinese, Ainu, Inuit, or at the least didn't get it to them.

Why give it to those that do not abide by vrata and are ayajavāna? Do you want to re-write Shruti laws? You can....no one is stopping you, brother.

Sanātana Dharma belongs to everyone, not just desis,

Now, where did I say that it didn't?

and comes in all the languages ever spoken by humans, and even to Alpha Centaurii, if they exist. So on the one hand it's a virtue that Hindus don't proselytize, yet on the other it keeps Hinduism from other cultures, and it's the fault of those other cultures that they are ignorant of the truth? Oh please!

Not their fault. If they want to worship those against Brahma, that's their problem, brah. But, according to the texts that make the foundation of Hinduism, I cannot worship Jesus and Yahweh....if that disappoints you, I don't know what more I can do, brother.

Listen, what bothers me the most right now is that you think that I said that Hinduism belongs to Desis....I don't know why you think such.....for I am one of the very few Hindus that you will encounter who is extremely vocal about having non-Desis convert to Hinduism.

M.V.

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste,

By saying that "our Hindu forefathers" passed the tradition down. To whom? To the Celts? To the Greeks? To the Australian Aboriginal peoples? To the Native Americans? To my Italian ancestors? To whom did they pass it down? Who has access to the Vedas? Indian women didn't even have access to the Vedas, for **** sakes. And they were ostensibly Hindu. No one had access to the Vedas except the brahmins who lorded them over people, and that is exactly what the Buddha railed against. But 2/3 of the world's population knows the gospels. Now why is this?

Are you Hindu? Well, they are your forefathers as well if you are.

Also, find me a quote from Shruti texts that says that women can't have access to the Vedas. Manusmriti, which stated that women can't have access, isn't Shrutic, brah. It is Smritic. I hope you know that many women seers authored many hymns of the Shruti Vedas....

Do I abide by Manusmriti? No. It is one of the worst Smriti texts. If you can find a quote from one of the four Shruti Vedas that says that women can't have access, I will agree with you point. But, to a Shrautin...Smritis aren't authoritative. What they contain can be disregarded, such as that horrid concept that women can't have access to the Vedas.

And, Christianity spread by the sword...I am sure you know that.

You're strawmanning. I don't worship him, I never said I do, and I never said there is evidence or justification for him in any Hindu texts. I'm saying to keep it real.

And, I am keeping it real by using Shruti to justify my stance that Jesus cannot (should not) be worshipped by Hindus.

M.V.

 

[Jainarayan]

Why give it to those that do not abide by vrata and are ayajavāna? Do you want to re-write Shruti laws? You can....no one is stopping you, brother.

Who says they won't abide by it, especially if they don't even know what it is?

Not their fault. If they want to worship those against Brahma, that's their problem, brah. But, according to the texts that make the foundation of Hinduism, I cannot worship Jesus and Yahweh....if that disappoints you, I don't know what more I can do, brother.

Now you're putting words in my mouth.

Listen, what bothers me the most right now is that you think that I said that Hinduism belongs to Desis....I don't know why you think such....

By suggesting that entire groups of people are not capable of abiding by the Vedas. That's a judgment no one is capable of, or has the right to make.

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste, Jainarayan-ji:

Who says they won't abide by it, especially if they don't even know what it is?

Well, it is their dharma to study those texts, is it not? EDIT: This goes for any Hindu on the planet, regardless of their origins. Furthermore, I am very disappointed that this conversation has led to the topic of race...this conversation itself has become a-brahma

Now you're putting words in my mouth.

I didn't mean to, brother.

By suggesting that entire groups of people are not capable of abiding by the Vedas. That's a judgment no one is capable of, or has the right to make.

I never said that they aren't capable...I said that they should understand that it is not allowed...it is un-Shrutic to worship Jesus if you are a Hindu...that is all. Nothing more, nothing less.

M.V.

 

[Jainarayan]

Namaste, Jainarayan-ji:



Well, it is there dharma to study those texts, is it not?

Have you ever eaten one of those big candy apples you get at a county or state fair or at an amusement park as a kid? Could you start it yourself, or did your father have to take a bite out of it to get it started for you?

Who is going to take the bite out of that big candied apple to get people started on studying and learning? Especially if they don't have access to anything written?

I never said that they aren't capable...I said that they should understand that it is not allowed...it is un-Shrutic to worship Jesus if you are a Hindu...that is all. Nothing more, nothing less.

M.V.

There are a lot of un-shrutic things Hindus do, and they are still Hindus. And there are a lot of shrutic things Hindus don't do and they are still Hindus. So much for that big Hindu umbrella, eh?

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste,

Have you ever eaten one of those big candy apples you get at a county or state fair or at an amusement park as a kid? Could you start it yourself, or did your father have to take a bite out of it to get it started for you?

I can't understand this metaphor because sadly I have never been to a state fair. EDIT: I get what you are saying. But, that metaphor doesn't really apply here. The whole point of my argument is that Semitic personalities cannot be worshipped in Hinduism. Non-Hindu personalities cannot be worshipped in Hinduism. Minor infractions can be made, such as the Buddha, Mahavira, and even the various Indo-European deities (even though I wouldn't fully agree but that is my opinion).

There are a lot of un-shrutic things Hindus do, and they are still Hindus. And there are a lot of shrutic things Hindus don't do and they are still Hindus. So much for that big Hindu umbrella, eh?

Yes, but they still offer the fire to Hindu Gods...I don't know how clearer I can get for you. EDIT: If you would like for me to explain what I mean by "offer the fire", I would be more than happy to have discourse on that matter, brother. Furthermore, don't be upset. You are my Hindu brother. It hurts me that you are upset.

M.V.

 

[Jainarayan]

The whole point of my argument is that Semitic personalities cannot be worshipped in Hinduism. Non-Hindu personalities cannot be worshipped in Hinduism. ...

Yes, but they still offer the fire to Hindu Gods...I don't know how clearer I can get for you.

M.V.

Yeah... Surprise! I know that.

 

[Poeticus]

Yeah... Surprise! I know that.

Namaste,

Enough about the Shrutic approach. What do you think, Jai-ji? Can Hindus worship Jesus?

M.V.

 

[Jainarayan]

If they want to... "No need to fret, ain't no law against it yet". Anyone can do anything they want and call themselves anything they want. There are no thought police. Thich Nhat Hanh, a Buddhist monk took communion with a Catholic priest. The sun still comes up every day. Swami Sivananda celebrated Christmas and wrote a booklet called The Life of Lord Jesus. The sun still comes up every day. Swami Prabhavananda wrote The Sermon on the Mount According to Vedanta, a treatise on Jesus's teachings that Christian writers miss. The sun still com... you know the rest. And if you think the ancient Vedic religion is not a syncretism of ancient tribal and pastoral religions, with tribal gods rolled in, think again.

 

[Poeticus]

If they want to... "No need to fret, ain't no law against it yet". Anyone can do anything they want and call themselves anything they want. There are no thought police. Thich Nhat Hanh, a Buddhist monk took communion with a Catholic priest. The sun still comes up every day. Swami Sivananda celebrated Christmas and wrote a booklet called The Life of Lord Jesus. The sun still comes up every day. Swami Prabhavananda wrote The Sermon on the Mount According to Vedanta, a treatise on Jesus's teachings that Christian writers miss. The sun still com... you know the rest. And if you think the ancient Vedic religion is not a syncretism of ancient tribal and pastoral religions, with tribal gods rolled in, think again.

Namaste,

I hope you don't think that I believe that it is the end of the world if Hindus worship Jesus. That was not my point. They can syncretize as much as they want. Who am I to say that they can't? My point is that the Shruti might see it as otherwise.

And, I never stated that the ancient Vedic religion wasn't a form of syncretism. But, now that you mention it, maybe you can provide me with a few examples to provide a foundation for your claim?

M.V.

EDIT: ps - You still have yet to provide me with quotes from the four Shruti Vedas that state that women can't hear the Vedas nor practice them.

 

[Sb1995]

Hindu's CANNOT worship Jesus.

 

[Poeticus]

Hindu's CANNOT worship Jesus.

Namaste,

Tell me about it, brother.

M.V.