Does Israel have a "right" to Palestine?

[lunakilo]

Sure, the Jews won the war against the Palestinians who attacked first and were trying to kill/deport the Jews. Start with that, and please explain any time in history that the winning party had to take terms from the losing party.

If you don't think its fair to have such power over the people who were trying to kill you first and refused to talk peace every time, we have different ideas of morality.

So all palestinians alive today tried to kill you?
If not is the plan to only deport the palestinians who tried to kill you or to deport all of them just to be on the safe side?

 

[Alceste]

Sure, the Jews won the war against the Palestinians who attacked first and were trying to kill/deport the Jews. Start with that, and please explain any time in history that the winning party had to take terms from the losing party.

If you don't think its fair to have such power over the people who were trying to kill you first and refused to talk peace every time, we have different ideas of morality.

Is it safe to assume that when the Palestinians you move to Jordan regroup and regain their lost territory through violence, you will then happily let go of the Palestinian territories as the spoils of war, justly earned?

Edited to add: I don't actually see the difference between your "morality" and that of the Palestinians.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I'm curious if Jordan even allows Palestinian's to become residences? I read "Unholy War" by Randel Price and he describes the Palestinian's as being trapped due to the neighboring Arab states unwillingness to absorb Palestinian immigrants.

 

[Shermana]

Is it safe to assume that when the Palestinians you move to Jordan regroup and regain their lost territory through violence, you will then happily let go of the Palestinian territories as the spoils of war, justly earned?

Edited to add: I don't actually see the difference between your "morality" and that of the Palestinians.

To be 100% honest, if my plan worked and it ended up being so successful that it backfired and gave the Palestinians the prosperity and quality of agriculture and health care needed to sustain a large enough army to destroy Israel, I'd still call it a success, and blame it on the sins of the Israelites who for whatever reason were Providentially deemed to lose the war. I'd still help the Jewish guerillas nonetheless but I would accept that this was Heaven's will. At least I made a difference in improving their lot to the point that they were able to actually challenge Israel and win in a no holds barred, state vs state match, whether I liked the overall outcome or not.

Compare this view of willing to accept the events as the Will of Heaven to the Palestinians who don't seem to grasp that by their Islamist logic, Allah hasn't been on their side.

 

[Shermana]

I'm curious if Jordan even allows Palestinian's to become residences? I read "Unholy War" by Randel Price and he describes the Palestinian's as being trapped due to the neighboring Arab states unwillingness to absorb Palestinian immigrants.

And can you guess why there is no international outcry even in the Arab world for the Hashemite Monarchy to abdicate and give back the 80% of the Palestinian Mandate titled "Jordan" (independent from "Palestine" only after 1946) to the Palestinian people? Heck, not even abdicate, just do the right thing?

Why is no one complaining about this total BS?

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=237631

Jordanian king says Jordan will never be alternative Palestinian homeland, says "Jordan option" is a political fantasy.

The only reason it's a "Fantasy" is because too many people are ignorant about facts and history, and the Palestinian and Jordanian leaders each exploit this apathetic willful ignorance (and cowardice) of the masses greatly.

 

[Shermana]

So all palestinians alive today tried to kill you?
If not is the plan to only deport the palestinians who tried to kill you or to deport all of them just to be on the safe side?

I would do it like this: All Palestinians would be offered a very substantial cash grant and guaranteed business loans at zero interest to establish a productive industry based on agriculture, mining, and services. This would be established through less than a few billion a year, over a 10 year program. Those who aren't so tied to the land by religious and ethnic reasons would mostly take the option and find themselves living an excellent life compared to before, with very generous, easily repayable loans as well as cash grants to help them establish themselves in a well developed but underpopulated country with much untapped resources, and Jordan would greatly benefit from the humongous influx of capital.

From there, those who don't want to go would have to sign non-citizen workers permits, which is not much different than any other non-citizen work program worldwide. Those who refuse to sign get deported, like how Egypt deports Sudanese refugees. Those who agree for Israeli work-permits would be allotted residence in any Palestinian-authorized residence, like how Saudi Arabia only allows foreigners to live in such compounds, but they would be very nice, on a level on par with the nicer Jewish settlements.

An international UN fund could also be applied to generate a few extra billion, maybe take some money from some useless UN bureaucracy and spend it on development of the Palestinian industry within these allotted zones.

I think with this system, the great bulk would go to Jordan and those who stayed would be allotted basically "Reservation" status except far better than the average Native American reservation, complete with guaranteed business loans and industrial development.

In this way, the Israeli demographics wouldn't feel as much pressure, as I believe the grand majority of Palestinian families would much rather prefer such a deal than their otherwise living conditions especially under their own Palestinian political authorities who are among the most corrupt in the world.

That's another issue, how do we deal with the corrupt PA, who is ranked as among the far worst of the public authorities when it comes to misuse of funds and cronyism?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

My plan is either a two state solution, with a Palestinian majority in one state and a Jewish majority in the other, or a one state solution where Israel officially absorbs the West bank, extends full and equal civil rights to Palestinians, and gives up the Zionist fantasy of engineering an ethnic majority to last for all time.

Since the latter could only be the outcome of intransigence leading inexorably to the eradication of a Jewish homeland, I'm forced to ask:

• Why are you so accepting of such an outcome, and
• if we are to assume that a 2-state solution is preferable to your 'Iranian alternative,' how might such a solution be effected?

 

[Alceste]

To be 100% honest, if my plan worked and it ended up being so successful that it backfired and gave the Palestinians the prosperity and quality of agriculture and health care needed to sustain a large enough army to destroy Israel, I'd still call it a success, and blame it on the sins of the Israelites who for whatever reason were Providentially deemed to lose the war. I'd still help the Jewish guerillas nonetheless but I would accept that this was Heaven's will. At least I made a difference in improving their lot to the point that they were able to actually challenge Israel and win in a no holds barred, state vs state match, whether I liked the overall outcome or not.

Compare this view of willing to accept the events as the Will of Heaven to the Palestinians who don't seem to grasp that by their Islamist logic, Allah hasn't been on their side.

I don't think they believe they've lost. I think they are still fighting you. I am comparing, anyway, and seeing no difference between your opinion and Ahmedinejad's opinion (for example). What is the difference between "chase out the Jews" and "chase out the Muslims"? I can't see one.

 

[Alceste]

Since the latter could only be the outcome of intransigence leading inexorably to the eradication of a Jewish homeland, I'm forced to ask:

• Why are you so accepting of such an outcome, and
• if we are to assume that a 2-state solution is preferable to your 'Iranian alternative,' how might such a solution be effected?

I think a two state solution is preferable. Shermana is the one advocating a one state solution. I'm saying, fine, take the territory but you will have to take the people too, and give them full and equal rights as Israeli citizens.

For a two state solution to work, both Israelis and Palestinians need to decide to elect leaders who are not fanatical, genocidal, stark raving lunatics, and then the new leaders would need to sit down and negotiate, and seriously commit to getting the job done.

 

[Shermana]

I don't think they believe they've lost. I think they are still fighting you. I am comparing, anyway, and seeing no difference between your opinion and Ahmedinejad's opinion (for example). What is the difference between "chase out the Jews" and "chase out the Muslims"? I can't see one.

In a conflict, each side wants to fight and drive the other out. What matters is the reason and who has more moral right behind their conflict. And that is in itself debatable, but for one thing my view involves a very peaceful transition where Israel pays a whole lot of money to get the Palestinians to leave nicely or live on well-developed Reservations, and still lets them live in the land as immigrant workers with industrial development who just aren't full citizens with voting rights and would probably have one of the highest qualities of life in the whole of Asia. Compare to Jad's plan which is to drive them to leave on their own funds without compensation.

 

[Alceste]

In a conflict, each side wants to fight and drive the other out. What matters is the reason and who has more moral right behind their conflict. And that is in itself debatable, but for one thing my view involves a very peaceful transition where Israel pays a whole lot of money to get the Palestinians to leave nicely or live on well-developed Reservations, and still lets them live in the land as immigrant workers with industrial development who just aren't full citizens with voting rights and would probably have one of the highest qualities of life in the whole of Asia. Compare to Jad's plan which is to drive them to leave on their own funds without compensation.

You do realize that the name for your proposal is "apartheid", and it is universally condemned in this day and age by all but the most fanatical racists? And that mass deportation is illegal under international law?

Trust me, as someone living in a country that shuffled the "defeated" people onto reservations, it's an absolutely terrible idea. And, by the way, our reservation dwellers have full citizenship rights, plus additional rights. And it's still a terrible situation. The problem with your proposals is that these are people you are talking about, not cattle. They will never be content to be shuffled into a new pasture, or corralled into a feed lot. Primates in general are predisposed to fair treatment, to the extent that if you fail to provide it you're likely to come to a violent end.

 

[Shermana]

You do realize that the name for your proposal is "apartheid", and it is universally condemned in this day and age by all but the most fanatical racists? And that mass deportation is illegal under international law?

Apartheid means a minority subjugating a Majority. Check your terms. And I don't care if its universally condemned. I don't see Iran or North Korea or Turkey or Russia worrying about what the world wants. If Mass deportation is illegal under international Law, please get the exact terms and conditions and explain why the Palestinians haven't gotten the memo in their very vocal plans to remove the Jews from Judea-Samaria. Apparently they aren't concerned about such Population Transfer laws even on the official level.

Trust me, as someone living in a country that shuffled the "defeated" people onto reservations, it's an absolutely terrible idea.

You living in Canada is supposed to make me trust you? I live in America. Same thing but much worse, I hear Canadian Natives have it far better. My plan would actually involve development in those reservations.

And, by the way, our reservation dwellers have full citizenship rights, plus additional rights. And it's still a terrible situation.

In my system they'd be trading in citizenship for extremely generous development.

The problem with your proposals is that these are people you are talking about, not cattle.

They are people who want the same for my people so I see no need to try to be a care bear or the "better person" especially over such a complicated situation. Besides, I think my plan is the most humane of all, and anything less would involve continuing their existence in cattle-like conditions as opposed to the giant free plains of Jordan where they belong.

They will never be content to be shuffled into a new pasture, or corralled into a feed lot.

Eventually it will boil down to them trying to force the Jews out and that's been their plan the whole time. I don't care about any concerns about "two evils". My feed lot would be far greater than anything they could achieve in their current conditions especially under the corrupt PA.

Primates in general are predisposed to fair treatment

Link? They are predisposed to follow the leader and not mess with anyone else who can beat them up.

, to the extent that if you fail to provide it you're likely to come to a violent end.[

My system would involve far more treatment than most Arab governments give to their subjects. Again, you must be willing to actually debate the specifics and facts on the grounds and check your emotional appeals at the door.

 

[Alceste]

Shermana, I'm going to leave it there. It's not just my opinion that mass deportation, concentration camps (I mean "reservations"), and apartheid are unfair, illegal and certain to end in humanitarian disaster. It's the mainstream view, affirmed by history and international law. If you want to hold up Saudi Arabia or North Korea as the ideals to which all other nations should aspire, please feel free. I'm confident you will never convince anyone else.

 

[fallingblood]

Well I don't see my Jordanian transfer plan as evil or an atrocity, and there's the rub. And I'm willing to defend my "evil atrocity" as a very sound, fair, legitimate plan that would solve everything and be the BEST POSSIBLE solution. Like I said, all such criticism of the plan is writing off the details for a big emotional appeal, when in fact this would be the best way to solve the situation. The only other solution, the 2 state solution that everyone talks about, involves the same thing being done to the Jews, but no one seems to have any problem with that or want to discuss that. Why does no one want to discuss the fact that the 2 state solution involves ETHNIC CLEANSING OF THE JEWS FROM JUDEA SAMARIA? You think its merely about kicking them out because they're different, do you really believe it's just about that?

You are using an either or fallacy. That isn't logical. There are other possible solutions. For instance, maybe it would be best to simply create an economic stronghold between the two groups. By doing such, one is instigating a great beginning to peace, as money is a big equalizer. One could also keep it as it is until a time that a two state option would work. Or, they could make it a joint state. There are other options. Just because you deem one unsuitable, that doesn't make your option the answer.

Also, a 2 state solution does not necessarily involve any ethnic cleansing. That would only be true if you think all of the people in charge are idiots. The fact is, if they do set up a two state solution, they will make sure that there is peace before hand, and that it would work.

And yes, I do think kicking out all of the Palestinians is based on nothing more than they are different.

 

[Alceste]

You are using an either or fallacy. That isn't logical. There are other possible solutions. For instance, maybe it would be best to simply create an economic stronghold between the two groups. By doing such, one is instigating a great beginning to peace, as money is a big equalizer. One could also keep it as it is until a time that a two state option would work. Or, they could make it a joint state. There are other options. Just because you deem one unsuitable, that doesn't make your option the answer.

Also, a 2 state solution does not necessarily involve any ethnic cleansing. That would only be true if you think all of the people in charge are idiots. The fact is, if they do set up a two state solution, they will make sure that there is peace before hand, and that it would work.

And yes, I do think kicking out all of the Palestinians is based on nothing more than they are different.

Also, if we assume that ethnic cleansing is a given (not that I support this assumption for one second), there are four million Palestinians in Gaza and the West bank and only half a million Jewish settlers. So obviously it makes more sense, rationally speaking, to evict the smaller of the two populations.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

For a two state solution to work, both Israelis and Palestinians need to decide to elect leaders who are not fanatical, genocidal, stark raving lunatics, and then the new leaders would need to sit down and negotiate, and seriously commit to getting the job done.

It is a fallacy to believe that the Middle East can be best portrayed and/or understood through hyperbole and over-simplification. Whatever their faults or shortcomings, to portray the likes of Netanyahu and Abbas and Barak and Livni ... etc. ... as "fanatical, genocidal, stark raving lunatics" is irresponsibly stupid.

 

[Alceste]

It is a fallacy to believe that the Middle East can be best portrayed and/or understood through hyperbole and over-simplification. Whatever their faults or shortcomings, to portray the likes of Netanyahu and Abbas and Barak and Livni ... etc. ... as "fanatical, genocidal, stark raving lunatics" is irresponsibly stupid.

Well, Netanyahu does come off as a hysterical, racist lunatic, IMO. Chicken Little is how I normally refer to him. The rhetoric from the other side is no better, and no worse. But both sides elected these nutcases. My point was unless the voters in both regions try something new, peace will never be a realistic aspiration.

 

[lunakilo]

I would do it like this: All Palestinians would be offered a very substantial cash grant and guaranteed business loans at zero interest to establish a productive industry based on agriculture, mining, and services. This would be established through less than a few billion a year, over a 10 year program. Those who aren't so tied to the land by religious and ethnic reasons would mostly take the option and find themselves living an excellent life compared to before, with very generous, easily repayable loans as well as cash grants to help them establish themselves in a well developed but underpopulated country with much untapped resources, and Jordan would greatly benefit from the humongous influx of capital.

From there, those who don't want to go would have to sign non-citizen workers permits, which is not much different than any other non-citizen work program worldwide. Those who refuse to sign get deported, like how Egypt deports Sudanese refugees. Those who agree for Israeli work-permits would be allotted residence in any Palestinian-authorized residence, like how Saudi Arabia only allows foreigners to live in such compounds, but they would be very nice, on a level on par with the nicer Jewish settlements.

An international UN fund could also be applied to generate a few extra billion, maybe take some money from some useless UN bureaucracy and spend it on development of the Palestinian industry within these allotted zones.

I think with this system, the great bulk would go to Jordan and those who stayed would be allotted basically "Reservation" status except far better than the average Native American reservation, complete with guaranteed business loans and industrial development.

In this way, the Israeli demographics wouldn't feel as much pressure, as I believe the grand majority of Palestinian families would much rather prefer such a deal than their otherwise living conditions especially under their own Palestinian political authorities who are among the most corrupt in the world.

That's another issue, how do we deal with the corrupt PA, who is ranked as among the far worst of the public authorities when it comes to misuse of funds and cronyism?

So your plan is to try to persvade these unwanted people to leave, and if they don't they become second class citizens and get rounded up and put in camps?

Now where was it I heard about a stroy like that before?

 

[YmirGF]

Well, Netanyahu does come off as a hysterical, racist lunatic, IMO.

You might try listening to what the man is actually saying rather than auto-filtering his words through your jaundiced perception of what you think he is saying.

 

[Alceste]

You might try listening to what the man is actually saying rather than auto-filtering his words through your jaundiced perception of what you think he is saying.

He's saying the sky is falling. Nobody is listening.