Does Israel have a "right" to Palestine?

[Pink Top Hat]

Because the Jews won the war the Palestinians started in their attempt to massacre the Jews and drive them out, so the Jews get to lay down the terms.

Also, looking at the corruption of the PA, I see far better economic management under Israeli leadership under any circumstance.

I don't see why numbers have anything to do with this. It would be the same situation if there were only 10,000 Jews. There's the prospect of further population as well. Perhaps in 40 years there will be over a million Jews there, and within 100 years, 5 million. Why must we only worry about the numbers now irrespective of everything else?

As for it being cheaper, such low amounts of overall money is no object when it comes to Justice and future economic benefit for each side. Besides, it could be very profitable to establish the Palestinians as a wealthy trading partner in Jordan. A stronger Jordan economy could see the losses recouped in trade within a decade.

Jews won the war?????
Corruption?????? you forget Olmert and the rest of the corrupt Israeli ministers! protests in the streets about Israeli corruption!


In 40 years there will be no Israel you can bet your life on that

maybe even 4 years because they are slowly self destructing

 

[Shermana]

Jews won the war?????

Are you here to say they didn't? Are you implying the Palestinians didn't start the war either or that their intention wasn't in fact to "Drive the Jews into the sea" and that they should "Kill all Jews for this pleases Allah and brings honor to the Arab people"?

Corruption?????? you forget Olmert and the rest of the corrupt Israeli ministers! protests in the streets about Israeli corruption!

Israeli corruption is indeed a problem, but PA corruption is indescribably worse. Which one is ranked near the bottom (or top depending) of worst 10 corrupt governments and which ones in the most 25 least corrupt?

In 40 years there will be no Israel you can bet your life on that

I'll bet my life that it will still be there with Jews in charge, will you bet yours? Even after a nuclear attack, I'll bet Israel would be the last one standing after the mushroom exchanges were done.

maybe even 4 years because they are slowly self destructing

What I'll bet is that Israel may lose a battle, perhaps, (which is mostly unlikely at this point) but if you're seriously implying that Israel will be gone in 4 years, you're fantasizing. Even with a nuclear exchange, Israel will emerge from the shelters with her dolphins triumphant.

 

[Rakhel]

I find it funny that when ever someone wants to prove that all Jews don't like the state of Israel, they always point to the Neturi Karta. As if they represent the entire population of the Jewish nation.
That would be like my saying that al-Qeada represents the entire of the Islamic nation.
And we both know, at least I do at any rate, that that is absolutely absurd.

 

[Flankerl]

I find it funny that when ever someone wants to prove that all Jews don't like the state of Israel, they always point to the Neturi Karta. As if they represent the entire population of the Jewish nation.
That would be like my saying that al-Qeada represents the entire of the Islamic nation.
And we both know, at least I do at any rate, that that is absolutely absurd.

But but but they are like "true torah jews" and are like angels on earth while the vile and evil false torah jews run amok.

I always find it rather amusing when people basically insult over 99% of all jews in favour of a small group.
But then again history has always shown us that we really shouldnt give a **** about what some people think.



regards
a false torah jew

 

[FearGod]

Obviously I quoted you and was responding to you.

You said that Palestine is Jordan. So I was thanking you for admitting this.

Yes but you have removed the and the biblical map from my post to change the facts that palestine was known thousands of years ago and that Israel just occupied palastine in the year 1948 by force and made the state of Israel for the jews only and that no muslims or christians are allowed to live there,i guess that has a relation maybe to the Talmud teachings which teach that jews are human but the others aren't,some of Talmud teachings are.

"The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts."
Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b

"The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honour the the dog more than the non-Jew."
Ereget Raschi Erod. 22 30

i don't want to mention the other many teachings which is also offensive against humanity and i guess that one of the reasons that god had sent jesus pbuh to teach us loveliness and kindness.

[youtube]SHCJ-wUIPV0[/youtube]
My name is Rachel Corrie | Remember Rachel Corrie - YouTube

[youtube]foSbqLi6U10[/youtube]
Maher Zain - Palestine Will Be Free |


LOVE AND PEACE FOR ALL

 

[Shermana]

Yes but you have removed the

and the biblical map from my post to change the facts that palestine was known thousands of years ago and that Israel just occupied palastine in the year 1948 by force and made the state of Israel for the jews only and that no muslims or christians are allowed to live there,i guess that has a relation maybe to the Talmud teachings which teach that jews are human but the others aren't,some of Talmud teachings are.

It was renamed Palastina by the Romans after they brutally massacred the Jews like how the Palestinians TRIED to massacre the Jews but failed, unlike the Romans who mostly succeeded and destroyed Jerusalem. It was renamed Palestine to directly insult the Jews. However, 80% of this territory which even the Turks and Byzantines called "Palestine" is now under the rule of the greedy Hashemite Tyrant in the land titled "Jordan", which was just an emirate/province of the greater Palestinian region.

"The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts."
Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b

"The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honour the the dog more than the non-Jew."
Ereget Raschi Erod. 22 30

I don't know what to make of these alleged Talmud Quotes, if they are authentic, or whatever the Defenses of them from the anti-Talmud-quote, pro-Talmud cites are, and seeing as I am not a Talmudist, I find the Talmud interesting at least for garnering aspects of Jewish culture and interpretation and perhaps some Kaballic or supernatural stuff.

i don't want to mention the other many teachings which is also offensive against humanity and i guess that one of the reasons that god had sent jesus pbuh to teach us loveliness and kindness.

As a believer in Jesus, I agree that he was sent to teach kindness and love for brothers of the Way and general good treatment to all, which I do struggle with myself when dealing with people, but I believe he also said to carry a sword with you at all times, and I think the "Turn the other cheek" concept is misunderstood.

[youtube]SHCJ-wUIPV0[/youtube]
My name is Rachel Corrie | Remember Rachel Corrie - YouTube

The sad tale of Poor Rachel Corrie:
Her death was tragic and gory
A game of Chicken gone wrong
She didn't last very long,
Don't play chicken with a Bulldozer's the moral of this story.

 

[Shermana]

Palestinians rape US peacenik, tell her to shut up. | Jewish Daily Report




Now what's interesting about this case, this woman went to Palestinians to show her support, she gets raped, and then the PA covers it up to the best of their ability until they finally have to give a punishment, which is to officially apologize to the woman. And then she agrees to not make them look bad "for the greater good".

Aladdin then refused to apologize for the incident, when news of it reached the village’s popular committee, the popular protests’ governing body, saying that the incident had been marginal and normal. The American activist then asked the committee to notify authorities of the attempted rape, a request which resulted in the man being arrested by security forces in Bethlehem. After agreeing to apologize for the incident, Aladdin was released from custody by the PA police.
The U.S. citizen was then convinced to retract her complaint, as to avoid tainting the image of the popular protest, which had attracted praise from around the world in recent months.

So there you go, the PA punishment for Palestinians raping foreign women who come to support their cause is an official apology. And this is an example of what you want as an official state.

This deserves its own thread.

 

[FearGod]

Palestinians rape US peacenik, tell her to shut up. | Jewish Daily Report




Now what's interesting about this case, this woman went to Palestinians to show her support, she gets raped, and then the PA covers it up to the best of their ability until they finally have to give a punishment, which is to officially apologize to the woman. And then she agrees to not make them look bad "for the greater good".
So there you go, the PA punishment for Palestinians raping foreign women who come to support their cause is an official apology. And this is the type of society you want as an official state.

This deserves its own thread.

Lol,Jewish Daily Report.
That says it all

Show us a link for the same story on the international media sources such as CNN,but that shows that you aren't able to Denigrate the poor palestinians.

Our beloved hero Rachel Corrie is well-known as the sun shining.

Your source even not mentioning the woman's name,but just a nick name,and i googled for Omar Alladin in CNN and other international news sources and found nothing,try to find a real story. don't give up.

But thanks god that there is still brave people to tell the truth,
[youtube]oldaN16Nu2w[/youtube]
Israeli Soldier Speaks Out against Zionist Israel War Crimes (BBC) - YouTube

BTW,palestine was one state,before the zionists came and divided the land of Palestine.
[youtube]vjEBQ_bE7uA[/youtube]
Palestine Pre-1947 - YouTube

 

[FearGod]

Map of palestine as one state in the year 1890 before dividing it's people by the zionists.

 

[jazzymom]

Map of palestine as one state in the year 1890 before dividing it's people by the zionists.

There was not a state of Palestine, there was a territory called Palestine and what we know as the other countries of the middle east did not exist.

There was the Ottoman empire.

But you say it was carved up and taken.

Do you acknowledge the Palestinians were offered a state?
Do you acknowledge they said no to a state?

This is the reality.

 

[jazzymom]

And Muslims don't have their extremists?

All groups have members with extremist views.

 

[jazzymom]

Jews won the war?????
Corruption?????? you forget Olmert and the rest of the corrupt Israeli ministers! protests in the streets about Israeli corruption!


In 40 years there will be no Israel you can bet your life on that

maybe even 4 years because they are slowly self destructing

Politicians are corrupt all over the world. The Palestinian Authority is corrupt.
It is an ongoing battle to stop corruption in politics.

And yes the Jews have won every war they had to fight when they were attacked first.

 

[Caladan]

I love it how a thread which examines if Israelis have a right to their land quickly deteriorates to off topic paragraphs from the Talmud, off topics videos with an appeal to emotion, and an empty threat that 'In 40 years there is not going to be any Israel'.

At least there are still a few people on this thread who use their words and intellect alone to actually make an effort and address the original point and get this thread on track. Then there are those who are terrified of articulating their own thoughts on the topic and engage in a fair debate.

 

[Rakhel]

Map of palestine as one state in the year 1890 before dividing it's people by the zionists.

I got a question.
Why does the link for your map say 1924 when you are insisting that it is a map from 1890?

 

[lunakilo]

Palestine is Jordan .

Indeed, thank you kindly for coming to your senses and admitting this truth, ...

Religious Education Forum - FAQ: vBulletin FAQ

Forum rules 3.2

Posts that target a person or group by following them around the forums to attack them. This is Bullying. Deliberately altering the words of another member by intentionally changing the meaning when you use the quote feature is considered a form of bullying. The ONLY acceptable alteration of a quotation from another member is to remove portions that are not relevant or to alter formatting for emphasis

 

[FearGod]

I got a question.
Why does the link for your map say 1924 when you are insisting that it is a map from 1890?

Sorry,here is the map of the year 1890

Reference : Holyland

 

[FearGod]

Religious Education Forum - FAQ: vBulletin FAQ

Forum rules 3.2

good notice. :yes:
you are qualified to be among the RF staff.

 

[Flankerl]

Sorry,here is the map of the year 1890

Reference : Holyland

Iam searching where it says "Ottoman Empire" on the map.

 

[jasonwill2]

edit: wow... I think I worked for an hour on this post, drafting and redrafting it.

The immigration of Jews into Palestine took place in several stages. When you say recent what do you mean?
Correct me if I'm wrong Jason, but you live in Virginia. During the 19th century while Native Americans were ethnically cleansed in Virginia, in the city I live in, swamp land was legally bought by Jewish pioneers. So are you going to lecture me that I have no right to live where I am? and you do?
In 1924 laws were still passed in Virginia that banned Whites and Native Americans from marrying each other. So a little perspective wont hurt.

Montani semper liberi!

This is West, by God, West Virginia:

THIS is Virginia:
.

West Virginia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Virginia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Official Website for the State of West Virginia

Virginia.gov - Home

West Virginia flag:

Virginia Flag:

*!*

We are two different states. I don't know what laws Virginia has or not, but I'd imagine that law isn't around anymore. Virginia is a lot more southern and conservative though.

West Virginia has a different story, and on this side of the Appalachian we are the 11th most irreligious state, and more liberal than half of the other States in the Union. As well Democrats almost always hold all our state level seats (such as Senator, Governor, ect ect). We are not part of the Bible belt, and Methodists are our most common denomination. I started a topic on my state actually: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/home-town/137756-why-west-virginia-awesome.html

But whatever laws you are talking about, or things that Virginians did,, but as for the history of what happened ACTUALLY GEOGRAPHICALLY HERE in what is now present day West Virginia, I know a good bit of the history and it's not like we set out to kill them all off. For a good while we tried to live together in peace, but there was strife, for example the case with Cornstalk, and the legend of his curse. He acted as a diplomat and basically both Whites and Native Americans were enraged at his murder.

Cornstalk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You keep wanting to bring America into this, but if your going to take something out on MY HOME, West Virginia, it might help to realize that for over 149 years West Virginia has been it's own state, COMPLETELY SEPARATE from Virginia. Mountaineers get quite peeved when you think we are just "Virginians". While I can understand that you made the mistake of confusing them I think this post will help give a feel for how West Virginia is different. I apologize if I am overbearing with this but it's just a typical West Virginian reaction.

=Now if you want to hear specifically me talk about Native Americans and how it might relate to the Israel-Palestine situation=

Now I guess in a way such as with the incidents Cornstalk was involved in there is a parallel on a much smaller scale to Israelis and Palestinians, as well I recall another time that an enraged Native American slaughtered a bunch of Whites in their sleep, and then the Whites rallied and killed the family of the Chief of the Tribe that the offender belonged to, despite the pleas that only one group did it alone and that he wasn't part of it. That was another time that at least some whites and natives were trying to co-exist. However the group that killed the whites claimed that it was retaliation for the wrongs and other killings. I recall, but I don't remember who but it was a Native American who said that" "if a White man kills an Indian, he is a patriot", but that "if an Indian kills a white man, he is a savage", in reference to the two mass killings I just mentioned.

Though not part of West Virginia more in the Midwest or further west:

I agree that there was a lot wrong that Americans did, the Trail of Tears, the pushing further and further west, the exploitation of cheating them out of agreements they didn't understand, and I tell you, there WERE Americans, both in the Military or who worked with those treaties, that didn't agree with it, that saw it as just plain wrong, but when they went to the Capital to speak for the Native Americans on this, they were always ignored, and the Native American's white allies were powerless. There were slaughters, even on both sides at times. But I can't say that all whites systemically intended to kill them all off, but I can say that many, many white settlers forcibly displaced them. I recall there was an instance, even criticized by a lot of whites at the time, of where the Native Americans were told that there was peace now, and to give up their weapons because they didn't need them, and so they did having no other choice, and then a few hundred of them were shot and slaughtered, though this was more out west than were I live.

I don't think that my nation is innocent, and they did a lot wrong, there are still reservations, and there is still things that the government can do about that, but that blood is not on my hands, it's on the hands of people that died hundreds of years ago. Palestine and Israel is today. Who gives a damn about blaming people and what happened in the past? Israel and Palestine is today. The only relevance of the American past is maybe that Israel and Palestine can learn from it, if anything at all. The fact that its so modern is VERY important, because it is actually in recent memory, people from then still being alive, and violence STILL happening because of it. The relevance of it being modern is paramount because it's still going on, it's still an issue. With Native Americans, there isn't anymore bloodshed or wars because of it, but with Israel, there are still wars, there is still violence. THAT is why it being so current, so modern, that it's an issue.

= As for anyone who finds anything I said disgusting, ignorant, racist whatever on Israel =

First, I should note that just because I don't agree with the actions of a secular government that that would make me an anti-Semite, as that is essentially racism. However I have been accused of this before on these forums simply because I defended Arabs against the things Israel once did, which is funny because Anti-Semite actually means racist towards either or both Jews or Arabs as they are both Semitic. For the record I have defended Islam and Arabs from generalizations and stereotypes, as well I have always respected a great number of Jewish people, both famous and here on the forums for their work, knowledge, or dedication and their ability to not force their beliefs onto everyone.

Perhaps I don't know much about who did what, but I know that I hear people claiming to be displaced, lost their land, or their country, or whatever, and willing to commit violence for it, and I hear of and see that Israel has committed violence that targeted civilians, or such as things that happened in the Gaza strip, tearing down homes or Israeli snipers headshoting unarmed civilians walking down the street on the Gaza Strip (I'm refering to a specific case). Though a lot of this I heard, I admit is from European sources (news stations, ect), and I have talked to people who call themselves Palestinians. But part of the reason I made this topic is to see if I didn't get the whole story, or if there is something that I wasn't told. There seems to be a lot of uncertainty in what I hear, and a lot of contradictory information, and I can't tell which side is correct. One says that Israel is a terrorist state, another says that they just defended myself. One (European news station) says that Israel targeted civilians of a different nationality in the Gaza Strip, another source says that they didn't.

People can call me ignorant, stupid, anti-semetic, or whatever the heck they might want to call me, but which would you prefer? A person who started a topic to see both sides debate on it so that he could be better informed in his opinions, or someone so close minded as to not, as I have done, honestly ask questions to re-ascertain his opinion? I don't know a huge amount on the topic, which is WHY I made this thread, to hear people defend both view-points.

 

[Caladan]

I don't think that my nation is innocent, and they did a lot wrong, there are still reservations, and there is still things that the government can do about that, but that blood is not on my hands, it's on the hands of people that died hundreds of years ago. Palestine and Israel is today. Who gives a damn about blaming people and what happened in the past? Israel and Palestine is today. The only relevance of the American past is maybe that Israel and Palestine can learn from it, if anything at all. The fact that its so modern is VERY important, because it is actually in recent memory, people from then still being alive, and violence STILL happening because of it. The relevance of it being modern is paramount because it's still going on, it's still an issue. With Native Americans, there isn't anymore bloodshed or wars because of it, but with Israel, there are still wars, there is still violence. THAT is why it being so current, so modern, that it's an issue.

First, I'd like to thank you for making an attempt to educate me on the differences between West Virginia and Virginia. But I hope you understand the point, that it is absurd to single out the settlement of Palestine by Jewish pioneers, refugees, or simply Jews who have lived on this piece of land since the dawn of history. That is to single out Israelis and question their right for their land. Not for the Gaza strip, not for the Palestinian parts of the West Bank. But for Their Land, where they have built cities for more than a hundred years which are now populated by millions of people. If you want to truly discuss the colonization of Western people around the world, I expect you to discuss all of it. The Americans, the Canadians, the Australians, etc.
You may even find out that the Jews have been more noble than them all in how they crafted a state for themselves. The Jews did not fight off only poor natives with stones and bows. The Israelis fended off various armies for over 60 years and also fought organized terror organizations armed with modern weapons.

You go back to the claim that 'this is happening today'. But your main question was 'Does Israel have a 'right' to Palestine'. So lets go back to that. Do you believe that you can isolate Israel's enterprises in the region historically called Palestine, which lasted from the 19th century in modern times, a region which also had a Jewish existence in the land long before that time?
What is happening today, what is modern? Tel Aviv was not founded a decade ago, or two decades ago, or even five decades ago. The Israeli city I'm currently living in was founded in the 19th century on land which was sold... So going back to your own original question... do I, or don't I have a right to live on this land?