Does Israel have a "right" to Palestine?

[Caladan]

The fact that it is so modern is what makes it different.

The immigration of Jews into Palestine took place in several stages. When you say recent what do you mean?
Correct me if I'm wrong Jason, but you live in Virginia. During the 19th century while Native Americans were ethnically cleansed in Virginia, in the city I live in, swamp land was legally bought by Jewish pioneers. So are you going to lecture me that I have no right to live where I am? and you do?
In 1924 laws were still passed in Virginia that banned Whites and Native Americans from marrying each other. So a little perspective wont hurt.

As an Israeli I see a future Palestinian state existing in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, with some territory swaps between Israel and a Palestinian state.
The rest of Israel is not even on the negotiations table, so your question needs a little examination. No one other than in the Hamas charter and Jihadists expect the Israelis who live in Tel Aviv, Haifa, or Jerusalem to be expelled. These are urban centres who are populated today with hundreds of thousands of people each.
So what do you mean by a 'right' to Palestine? are you talking about all of historical Palestine? including the places where Jewish communities have been establishing themselves for about 150 years? and where the UN mandated the creation of the modern state of Israel, just as it mandated the creation of dozens of modern Arab states around that time?

Lets discuss this fact a little. The Middle East was home to various tribes, ethnic groups, and people. Israel was but one modern state that was created in a postcolonial world. Dozens of Arab states were created as well, of all these states Israel has been the most stable and the only one with a historical long standing democracy.
The Jews did not storm Palestine in a religious crusade, many Jews laboured and cooperated with European governments in order to create a modern state for many years. It involved the arrival of pioneers, and decades later refugees who escaped a war torn European continent, later Jews from Middle Eastern countries from which they were chased away and their property lost arrived as well. Rarely do people today even have a basic education about the condition in which Jews from the Middle East arrived to Israel.
As the refugee status of the Palestinians is perpetuated in the world today, and by Arab governments who deny them basic rights, or even downright expel them in their hundreds of thousands as the Arab gulf states have... no one even discusses the Jews who were expelled from Arab lands... the reason may be because these people started a new life in Israel, while Palestinian refugees have been denied doing the same by the Arab states.

 

[jazzymom]

But why Palestine? Why that specific place? That couldn't of been a coincidence.



Interesting, I shall look at that.



The fact that it is so modern is what makes it different.

Palestine is the historic homeland of the Jewish people.

I find it problematic when Americans who have a history of ethnic cleansing when it came to the native population. In order to take the land from them treaties were signed then ignored.

Native Americans were forced onto reservations and their children taken from them.

They were not allowed to practice their native traditions or speak their native languages.

They were killed in massacres.

I could go on and on but I won't.

We as Americans have little room to speak.

I am not responsible for what my ancestors did but I inherited the history.

My history is very young as an American and I have NO historic ties to this land I call my country.

I really don't have a right to be here.

But where would I go?

Germany? England? The Netherlands?

My British ancestors came to America in the 1600's my German ancestors came here in 1865 and I have no idea when my Dutch ancestors came.

But I have no historic ties to America.

My country was stolen from the native populations yet I am here.

But what I find so problematic is that in 1948 both the Palestinians and the Jews were offered a state and one side said yes and the other said no.

Nothing was ever stolen. A group cannot say no to a state, go to war and lose then say it was taken from them.

The history of Israel is far less problematic then the settling of America.

In fact I would go one step further and say that the settlements of other countries in the 1700s and 1800s also displaced the native populations and treated them horribly.

 

[lunakilo]

The immigration of Jews into Palestine took place in several stages. When you say recent what do you mean?

I think what people are refering to when they say modern or recent is the formation of the state of Israel.

As far as I know, and please correct me if I am wrong, prior to 1948 ther was no such state. Jews lived there prior to 1948, but not in a jewish state.

And after that there have been so many wars (or armed conflicts or what ever the term is now a days) that I will not even attempt to list them.

Those are the recent/modern events people refer to (as I understand it)

The situarion before 1948 may have been a mess too, but without the state of Israel in the picture I see it as a different mess.
Again, maybe I am wrong about that, but that is my very un-professional view of the situation.

 

[Caladan]

I think what people are refering to when they say modern or recent is the formation of the state of Israel.

As far as I know, and please correct me if I am wrong, prior to 1948 ther was no such state. Jews lived there prior to 1948, but not in a jewish state.

And after that there have been so many wars (or armed conflicts or what ever the term is now a days) that I will not even attempt to list them.

Those are the recent/modern events people refer to (as I understand it)

But the situation didn't suddenly came in to being in 1948. During the decades of the British (and French) rule in the Middle East, various groups negotiated the creation of states. Israel was one of these states, but there were many others. As Britain and France (and the Soviets) withdrew from the Middle East several states were formed, including Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, and Israel. And another reminder that with the creation of the Israeli state, came a rejection by the Arabs to have the British Mandate of Palestine divided into a Jewish state and an Arab state.

The situarion before 1948 may have been a mess too, but without the state of Israel in the picture I see it as a different mess.
Again, maybe I am wrong about that, but that is my very un-professional view of the situation.

The 'mess' in the Middle East is far from being confined to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. In fact Arab on Arab or Iranian on Arab (and others) aggression has resulted in much more mortality than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The division of borders in the post-colonial Middle East resulted in conflicts and tensions that are still felt today. Some of them between sovereign Arab states, and some between ethnic groups within single states. For example what happens in Syria. The situation in Syria puts things in perspective, in two years alone tens of thousands of people died in a civil war. That is more Israelis and Palestinians dead in decades of conflict.

 

[FearGod]

See: Jordan.


Should they be given any place they call "Palestine" to be a state? Why not any place historically called "Judea-Samaria" claimed by the Jews to be entitled to the Jews? Why must there be a compromise on disputed land instead of acknowledging the refusal of Palestinians to acknowledge that they already have a Palestinian state called Jordan. Why not focus on the Palestinian state that already exists called Jordan. Maybe we should just rename Jordan to Palestine, since it was historically in fact referred to as Palestine before 1946 (was an emirate/province of the Palestinian Mandate from 22-46), so that would be an easy transition. I'm sure the Israelis would be happy to offer free bus rides and transition funds to Amman to unite the Palestinans in Judea-Samaria with their majority Palestinian brethren in "Jordan". The Hashemite Monarchy might not approve but why does he have a right to rule Jordan?
Jordan Is Palestinian :: Middle East Quarterly
Jordan is Palestine - Israel Opinion, Ynetnews

Note: Jordan is over 20x the size of Judea-Samaria and Gaza with about an equal population (of mostly Palestinians) and sprawling with usable land natural resources and great economic opprotunity that could be greatly benefited by the influx of such a great migration.

Palestine is Jordan .

 

[jazzymom]

The immigration of Jews into Palestine took place in several stages. When you say recent what do you mean?
Correct me if I'm wrong Jason, but you live in Virginia. During the 19th century while Native Americans were ethnically cleansed in Virginia, in the city I live in, swamp land was legally bought by Jewish pioneers. So are you going to lecture me that I have no right to live where I am? and you do?
In 1924 laws were still passed in Virginia that banned Whites and Native Americans from marrying each other. So a little perspective wont hurt.

As an Israeli I see a future Palestinian state existing in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, with some territory swaps between Israel and a Palestinian state.
The rest of Israel is not even on the negotiations table, so your question needs a little examination. No one other than in the Hamas charter and Jihadists expect the Israelis who live in Tel Aviv, Haifa, or Jerusalem to be expelled. These are urban centres who are populated today with hundreds of thousands of people each.
So what do you mean by a 'right' to Palestine? are you talking about all of historical Palestine? including the places where Jewish communities have been establishing themselves for about 150 years? and where the UN mandated the creation of the modern state of Israel, just as it mandated the creation of dozens of modern Arab states around that time?

Lets discuss this fact a little. The Middle East was home to various tribes, ethnic groups, and people. Israel was but one modern state that was created in a postcolonial world. Dozens of Arab states were created as well, of all these states Israel has been the most stable and the only one with a historical long standing democracy.
The Jews did not storm Palestine in a religious crusade, many Jews laboured and cooperated with European governments in order to create a modern state for many years. It involved the arrival of pioneers, and decades later refugees who escaped a war torn European continent, later Jews from Middle Eastern countries from which they were chased away and their property lost arrived as well. Rarely do people today even have a basic education about the condition in which Jews from the Middle East arrived to Israel.
As the refugee status of the Palestinians is perpetuated in the world today, and by Arab governments who deny them basic rights, or even downright expel them in their hundreds of thousands as the Arab gulf states have... no one even discusses the Jews who were expelled from Arab lands... the reason may be because these people started a new life in Israel, while Palestinian refugees have been denied doing the same by the Arab states.

Palestine is Jordan .

It was not Palestine in the time of Jesus either. It did not become Palestine until after the destruction of the temple and the final defeat of the Jewish population.

It was named Palestine by the Romans.

Jesus lived in Judea under Roman occupation as did all the Jews of the time.

 

[Shermana]

Palestine is Jordan .

Indeed, thank you kindly for coming to your senses and admitting this truth, I can only hope that millions more are willing to drop the act and start coming clean and stop this giant charade of lies and misinformation and be truthful that Palestine is in fact, Jordan, and that Jordan is Palestine. My commendations on your brave display of honesty, few on your side dare to show such courage and actually admit the truth, my serious commendations!

I can only hope that the rest of the world slowly but surely comes around to taking the two seconds from their busy time of bashing Israel to understand that the Palestinians already have had a state in the land called Palestine, at least 80% of it, and that the real problem is the Hashemite Monarchy who none of the world seems to understand is the real source of the problem here by not allowing Jordan to be what it's supposed to be, Palestine.

Please spread the word to as many friends as you can, that Palestine is in fact Jordan, and do your best to crush this maddening willful ignorance that the rest of the world seems to be mired in so they may understand the actual roots of the situation and not just the Strawman version of events they are so accustomed to.

Again, my thanks for your brave display of admitting the truth. I can only imagine why this basic fact is not understood by 90% of the world, but it may have something to do with 90% of the world being absolute idiots.

 

[Shermana]

You are using an either or fallacy. That isn't logical. There are other possible solutions. For instance, maybe it would be best to simply create an economic stronghold between the two groups. By doing such, one is instigating a great beginning to peace, as money is a big equalizer. One could also keep it as it is until a time that a two state option would work. Or, they could make it a joint state. There are other options. Just because you deem one unsuitable, that doesn't make your option the answer.

Also, a 2 state solution does not necessarily involve any ethnic cleansing. That would only be true if you think all of the people in charge are idiots. The fact is, if they do set up a two state solution, they will make sure that there is peace before hand, and that it would work.



And yes, I do think kicking out all of the Palestinians is based on nothing more than they are different.

I have asked for other solutions. Please by all means expand on what your solutions are and how exactly they'd be implemented. By all means tell me what your plans of the Joint state are. Does it happen to involve giving all the Palestinians Israeli citizenship by chance so that they can vote the Jews out?

Also, when you say "Economic stronghold", by all means expand on that and explain why my own plan isn't all about creating a gigantic Economic fortress backed by zero-interest loans and humongous grants and possibly even UN Participation?

If you're unaware of the fact that every single 2 state solution plan under Palestinian terms involves kicking the Jews out of Judea-Samaria, please educate yourself on the basics before responding.

I assume then that you include "The majority wanting to drive your population into the sea for the last 60 years" counts as "just being different" I see.

 

[Shermana]

So your plan is to try to persvade these unwanted people to leave, and if they don't they become second class citizens and get rounded up and put in camps?

Now where was it I heard about a stroy like that before?

You've heard a much worse story in the Palestinian designs for the region.

Instead of gigantic cash grants and zero-interest rates, they were offering bullets to the back of the head and raping the women.

But hey, people who threaten you with extermination and raping your women without offering to negotiate need to be treated with fair terms I guess.

Because after all, there's no difference whatsoever between how each side has acted, both sides are both the exact same. We should treat those who offered a fair peace on every occasion a stern hand but be lenient with those who tried to massacre them each of those times. And of course, so many countries in history have had to do what the world demands in how to treat the defeated enemy who tried to kill them first. Not like it would be singling Israel out or anything.

What's your plan? Kick the Jews out of Judea Samaria and call it a Palestinian state? Wait the approximately infinite years before the Palestinians elect a government who will negotiate fairly?

 

[Shermana]

You might try listening to what the man is actually saying rather than auto-filtering his words through your jaundiced perception of what you think he is saying.

You mean actually know what the facts are before spouting off antagonistic propaganda? That's too much to ask for.

I'm even guilty of it myself sometimes!

 

[Alceste]

You mean actually know what the facts are before spouting off antagonistic propaganda?!

... said the guy who just called all the Palestinians rapists and murderers.

 

[Shermana]

... said the guy who just called all the Palestinians rapists and murderers.

Please quote where I said ALL Palestinians are rapists and murderers as opposed to the situational context of who attacked who first and the demands they placed on the other side for the most part.

Ladies and Gentlemen, does this quote imply that I meant every single Palestinian civilian was a rapist and murderer or was I talking about their popularly supported collective leadership and political agenda which may or may not include them as individuals?

But hey, people who threaten you with extermination and raping your women without offering to negotiate need to be treated with fair terms I guess.

And if you want to discuss the rate of individual Palestinians murdering and raping Jews and the amount of policework and cracking down the PA does on it, I'll be happy to discuss that. Would you?

Perhaps you'd like to actually quote on the issue at stake and the historical situation rather than focussing on what words I used? Or would that asking be too much? I understand you don't want to accept any possibility that maybe the Palestinians did in fact start the fight and their popularly supported leaders did in fact call for mass extermination of the Jews and that many of them repeatedly claim what they will do to Jewish women, but still, come on, be fair in discussing the situation. Surely you have something to add about this historical detail especially in context to the question I was answering to? Or were you just hoping to focus on that part without even going into what the context of the quote was?

Would you like to discuss the facts of the quote in context to what it's in reply to?

I should also add, that it's too much to ask to correctly quote people in context.

And maybe eventually, you'd like to state what your solution would be for the situation, other than hoping for "non-fanatical" leaders to get elected which I'd say you have a LONG wait for. Many will die and starve by the time that happens. Under my plan, they'd be getting a great new life on a brand new frontier rather quickly. Heck, why don't you figure out a way to get the PA to not be so corrupt so the Palestinians can get 100% of their aid money and not the scraps.

 

[FearGod]

Indeed, thank you kindly for coming to your senses and admitting this truth, I can only hope that millions more are willing to drop the act and start coming clean and stop this giant charade of lies and misinformation and be truthful that Palestine is in fact, Jordan, and that Jordan is Palestine. My commendations on your brave display of honesty, few on your side dare to show such courage and actually admit the truth, my serious commendations!

I can only hope that the rest of the world slowly but surely comes around to taking the two seconds from their busy time of bashing Israel to understand that the Palestinians already have had a state in the land called Palestine, at least 80% of it, and that the real problem is the Hashemite Monarchy who none of the world seems to understand is the real source of the problem here by not allowing Jordan to be what it's supposed to be, Palestine.

Please spread the word to as many friends as you can, that Palestine is in fact Jordan, and do your best to crush this maddening willful ignorance that the rest of the world seems to be mired in so they may understand the actual roots of the situation and not just the Strawman version of events they are so accustomed to.

Again, my thanks for your brave display of admitting the truth. I can only imagine why this basic fact is not understood by 90% of the world, but it may have something to do with 90% of the world being absolute idiots.

Are you talking with yourself. :areyoucra

 

[Shermana]

Are you talking with yourself. :areyoucra

Obviously I quoted you and was responding to you.

You said that Palestine is Jordan. So I was thanking you for admitting this.

 

[Alceste]

You still haven't mentioned why the settlers shouldn't be removed instead. Wouldn't it be cheaper to give them this generous startup funding in their new home? There are only half a million of them, as oppose to five million Palestinians.

 

[Shermana]

You still haven't mentioned why the settlers shouldn't be removed instead. Wouldn't it be cheaper to give them this generous startup funding in their new home? There are only half a million of them, as oppose to five million Palestinians.

Because the Jews won the war the Palestinians started in their attempt to massacre the Jews and drive them out, so the Jews get to lay down the terms.

Also, looking at the corruption of the PA, I see far better economic management under Israeli leadership under any circumstance.

I don't see why numbers have anything to do with this. It would be the same situation if there were only 10,000 Jews. There's the prospect of further population as well. Perhaps in 40 years there will be over a million Jews there, and within 100 years, 5 million. Why must we only worry about the numbers now irrespective of everything else?

As for it being cheaper, such low amounts of overall money is no object when it comes to Justice and future economic benefit for each side. Besides, it could be very profitable to establish the Palestinians as a wealthy trading partner in Jordan. A stronger Jordan economy could see the losses recouped in trade within a decade.

 

[Pink Top Hat]

I'll admit I don't know everything about the situation with modern Israel, but the idea I hear sometimes that it is on Biblical justification because Jews had it thousands of years ago is a strawman to me. I've read from anything that the Jews and Israel has a right to the land to that they stole it and that Israel is a terrorist state.

For about four years I maintained that Israel really didn't have a right to the land after learning more about it, and before then, I didn't really have an opinion. Though most recently I think I have realized that maybe I prematurely formed my views on it, though I have my suspicions of how both sides paint each other. If anyone has an opinion on either the formation of modern Israel or Israel's situations in the Middle East politics and world events, I would like to hear it.

The zionist creator Herzl was an athiest so the creation of Israel has no biblical significance at all. Argentina was one of the choices for the European athiests to move to. The world has been tricked into thinking this is about religion. It is not. The real Jews do not believe in the creation of Israel. In fact they are against it as it is against their biblical teachings. They say the bible forbids a Jewish state being built.

 

[Shermana]

It is only in contradiction to certain Talmudic teachings, it is not at all whatsoever in contradiction to the Jewish scripture itself. I don't even think these Naturei Karta (who represent a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the Jewish opinion on the matter and in no way represent a serious movement) would say it's against the Bible itself, but will only point out Talmudic passages by particular Rabbis whom they twist the meaning of what he said, as if he himself represented a unified Jewish position on the matter regardless.

 

[Pink Top Hat]

 

[Shermana]

Other than particular practices like chopping down olive trees, I don't see anything about the State of Israel's "racist policies" that in any way contradict Torah. If anything, the Palestinians were supposed to be given a position of being forced into slave labor or taking total annihilation if they refuse to surrender according to the Torah. The Jews have been extremely lenient with this population whose leadership has been trying to murder them all for decades.