Does It Matter If God Exists?

[Quintessence]

Imagine if God had commanded these people to share their wealth equally with the human population in order to eliminate poverty altogether, instead of feeding the poorest a few scraps under the table so these charitable souls can go to Heaven for their Good Works.

I see that you've missed my point. That's fine. Haters gonna hate.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

While I usually identify as an atheist, I also have strong tendency towards apatheism (not really caring if God exists or not) or ignosticism (the idea that God isn't well enough defined to even address the question of existence).

So, if some hyperdimensional teenager created this universe for a high school art class (thereby technically being God), does it really matter to me either way?

Not that I can see.

Well, for some variants this universe is only you as the only mind. How about that?

 

[Polymath257]

Well, for some variants this universe is only you as the only mind. How about that?

Solipsism is irrefutable, but is also nonsense. It is ignored precisely because it has no possible refutation.

This is the same reason I discount being a Brocca Brain. Being irrefutable via all possible observations makes it nonsense.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Solipsism is irrefutable, but is also nonsense. It is ignored precisely because it has no possible refutation.

Yeah, to you. I don't ignore solipsism. I use it to show that you have subjective first person beliefs and they all end in what makes sense to you. That is epistemological and methodological solipsism. You act based on what makes sense to you based on your experiences.
So do I. I just admit it.

 

[Polymath257]

Yeah, to you. I don't ignore solipsism. I use it to show that you have subjective first person beliefs and they all end in what makes sense to you. That is epistemological and methodological solipsism. You act based on what makes sense to you based on your experiences.
So do I. I just admit it.

Of course I do. But *as an explanation* of those experiences, solipsism is useless *because* it has not possible refutation even if it is false.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Of course I do. But *as an explanation* of those experiences, solipsism is useless *because* it has not possible refutation even if it is false.

Yeah, now can I get you admit something? You don't have to and I accept if you don't.
"...is useless..." is a form of solipsism because it has only first person subjective ontology. It is only true, that it is useless, because it is useless to you.

 

[Heyo]

Of course I do. But *as an explanation* of those experiences, solipsism is useless *because* it has not possible refutation even if it is false.

I never discuss solipsism online. It robs me of the option to punch my interlocutor in the face and ask him why he did that to himself.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Imagine an advanced alien race running a part of this universe as a computer program and you are a part of it. How would you know?

Mikkel, it does not need to be a alien super race. 'What exists', the substrate of the universe (for Hindus, Brahman), the energy present in the universe itself can be the cause of all illusions.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I never discuss solipsism online. It robs me of the option to punch my interlocutor in the face and ask him why he did that to himself.

Well, there are 3 versions of solipsism and I only believe in 2 of them. Do you believe in any of the 2 other ones?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Mikkel, it does not need to be a alien super race. 'What exists', the substrate of the universe (for Hindus, Brahman), the energy present in the universe itself can be the cause of all illusions.

Yeah, though I don't believe in that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I never discuss solipsism online. It robs me of the option to punch my interlocutor in the face and ask him why he did that to himself.

Friend Heyo, you are a fellow atheist. In 'Advaita', punching in face does not make any difference, because we believe in two kinds of realities. Pragmatic, which is what is observed; and Absolute, true reality which is not observable but can be understood. Punching in face is what is felt, observed, it is not the truth. The truth is the movement of the wave of energy constituting the aggressor's brain, his hand, the face of the one who is punched and its reaction thereof. When we punch in face, we should take guard against a punch coming our way. Absolute truth is this transfer of energy in space.

 

[thomas t]

Hi LeftCoast,
you do a brilliant job in explaining who has and who has not the burden of proof in this thread. You are a gifted debater.

That's an excellent question. Understanding gravity, the shape of the Earth, and so on is necessary to accurately understand features of the world around me. God is totally unnecessary in this regard as far as I can see. She explains nothing.

@KAT-KAT was right, I assume. In my understanding, the God proposition helps understand why we see beauty in nature: it's because of a loving creator, I think.
Below is the beauty of the region where I'm living now: the castle is manmade but the surrounding nature is not more or less. Both contribute to a beautiful picture as a whole.

picture: https://pixabay.com/photos/bamberg-castle-bavaria-640605/

 

[rrobs]

Agreed! So it's odd then, isn't it, that if God is real, it only makes a difference if you believe she does?

Not sure why it's so odd. It would naturally make a difference to the one who believes or not, but would it change the truth that God exists or not? I would think God's existence or non-existence (whichever one prefers) is independent our of our beliefs.

BTW, you are being disrespectful by not capitalizing the pronoun "she" when referring to God. You better straighten up and fly right........Just kidding! Besides, I think that silly rule went by the wayside anyway. It would be a petty god indeed who cared about something that trite.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You win, I am in a damming position. Now do you feel better now?

Why... of course I do! Hahaha...

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Why... of course I do! Hahaha...

Good. How do you know that I am in damning position? What is your evidence? What does it even mean?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Good. How do you know that I am in damning position? What is your evidence? What does it even mean?

You were on a sinking ship, unable to keep positing that "God exists" independent a necessary observer/thinker as I feel sure that you would like to. That's what I meant. And my evidence is your initial reluctance to admit, and later how you got closer and closer to admitting, and then finally admitted that your position was that your God concept exists within your own mind, and you cannot know that a corollary exists in any reality anywhere. And with that. I am done. You can keep replying to your hearts content. Whatever you want, just don't expect any more replies from me.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You were on a sinking ship, unable to keep positing that "God exists" independent a necessary observer/thinker as I feel sure that you would like to. That's what I meant. And my evidence is your initial reluctance to admit, and later how you got closer and closer to admitting, and then finally admitted that your position was that your God concept exists within your own mind, and you cannot know that a corollary exists in any reality anywhere. And with that. I am done. You can keep replying to your hearts content. Whatever you want, just don't expect any more replies from me.

So your evidence is that you feel sure. Okay. And you know what I like to do.

Well, I like being a skeptic and do I don't know. I mean I am a variant of a solipsist in some sense, just not the usual one. And I don't believe in existence nor the usual version of real. I have done way to much philosophy to believe in the common versions of existence, evidence and real.

 

[rrobs]

Yes, all the divisions are caused by people. That is obvious. My point is that God could do a better job, being God, to such an extent that there would be no confusion. Like for instance the sun being so obvious that people know it exists.

It wasn't a problem before Adam disobeyed.

God has an identity problem. John 4:24 says He is spirit. Since we can't see, hear, smell, taste, or touch spirit, God had to make Himself known by inspiring certain men to write about who He is. It was just the best He could do and it seems to have worked out quite well, given that He was able to convince enough people to keep the belief of a coming savior alive.

In a way, the OT scriptures were really meant for Jesus to understand who he was and what he must do. It was God's logos (John 1:1), His plan which Jesus read, understood, and carried out.

No it isn't. That is why you only mentioned 2.5 Billion and not the majority of the human population.

What I meant was that the vast majority of Christians agree on the vast majority of the scriptures. For example, it'd be a rare Christian who doesn't believe Jesus was raised from the dead.

It is just fashionable these days for people to emphasize the negative aspects of those who don't agree with them.

Yes you tell people about you. But a limitless God is not limited by human limitations. Those people you speak to know that you exist first of all because they see you and can interact with you. That already makes your existence more obvious than God's. What you are talking about is WHO you are, which won't vary as drastically as people's thoughts about God.

Check your premise; is God really limitless? He is actually limited by His word. He can only do what He says He will do. In fact He must do what He says He will do. Simple concept really, if anybody is good for their word, it would be God.

As I said above, God is spirit whereas I am physical. It takes a bit of work to understand spirit, whereas physical is just there...it's easy for people to perceive physical things, not so easy to perceive the spiritual things.

Only if they do not have access to all the necessary information and communication isn't clear.

Every person perceives differently. There is a good physics explanation for that. We all perceive our world via sub-atomic particles. I'll use the sun as an example. We see the sun because we see the photons it emits. But photons are a bit weird in that they may or may not actually exist in a given location. The thing that makes them actually exist in a given location is when they are observed. But once the are observed in my eye, that photon is no longer available for anyone else to see. Of course there are god-zillion numbers of photons the sun emits and they are more or less the same. That is good because since you can't see the particular photon that I saw, you do see enough of your own, and they are just like the ones I see, thus we see what appears to be the same sun. That's good for big things like bus schedules, but it does show that, in a certain sense, we all live in our own world.

So we all see the "same" world while we all see a "different world. Like I said Quantum physics is a strange thing, but it does explain much of "reality."

So....is that as clear as mud?

 

[Samael_Khan]

It wasn't a problem before Adam disobeyed.

God has an identity problem. John 4:24 says He is spirit. Since we can't see, hear, smell, taste, or touch spirit, God had to make Himself known by inspiring certain men to write about who He is. It was just the best He could do and it seems to have worked out quite well, given that He was able to convince enough people to keep the belief of a coming savior alive.

In a way, the OT scriptures were really meant for Jesus to understand who he was and what he must do. It was God's logos (John 1:1), His plan which Jesus read, understood, and carried out.

Well, the premises of what you have written above is highly in dispute so I don't know why you brought it up. The fact that your premises are in dispute proves my point. Many religions could also make claims that their god or gods did a job that worked out quite well because their religion lives on.

What I meant was that the vast majority of Christians agree on the vast majority of the scriptures. For example, it'd be a rare Christian who doesn't believe Jesus was raised from the dead.

It is just fashionable these days for people to emphasize the negative aspects of those who don't agree with them.

Well, if one doesn't believe that Jesus was raised from the dead then there is no point in being a Christian. I think it would be a stupid person who reads the Bible and doesn't understand that. More relevant to the discussion is that whether Jesus is God or not is still in dispute. And there are quite a few other points regarding the nature and intentions of God that relate to prophecy. Also, the beliefs of Jews is also relevant regarding who God is because the OT is their scriptures and they disagree wholeheartedly with Christians.

Check your premise; is God really limitless? He is actually limited by His word. He can only do what He says He will do. In fact He must do what He says He will do. Simple concept really, if anybody is good for their word, it would be God.

You are speaking of an artificial limitation which God places on himself. So God is actually limitless but holds himself to his own code. So I would change your third sentence here by saying that he HAS to do what he says he will do and CANNOT do what he says he won't do according to his personal code. But that is all based on what he apparently claims and for all I know he is lying... so I wouldn't take him on his word but on his ACTIONS. God can also do more than what he says he will do because he probably does a whole lot of stuff without saying much like any normal being, and he still has perform the action of thinking before saying anything. So he could have thought of a better way to reveal himself, said he would do such a thing and then actually do it.

As I said above, God is spirit whereas I am physical. It takes a bit of work to understand spirit, whereas physical is just there...it's easy for people to perceive physical things, not so easy to perceive the spiritual things.

If Jesus was God then God isn't limited to being a spirit. He can become physical. Also angels are spirits and they manifest physically according to the Bible. God has also supposedly communicated to humans through visions.

Every person perceives differently. There is a good physics explanation for that. We all perceive our world via sub-atomic particles. I'll use the sun as an example. We see the sun because we see the photons it emits. But photons are a bit weird in that they may or may not actually exist in a given location. The thing that makes them actually exist in a given location is when they are observed. But once the are observed in my eye, that photon is no longer available for anyone else to see. Of course there are god-zillion numbers of photons the sun emits and they are more or less the same. That is good because since you can't see the particular photon that I saw, you do see enough of your own, and they are just like the ones I see, thus we see what appears to be the same sun. That's good for big things like bus schedules, but it does show that, in a certain sense, we all live in our own world.

So we all see the "same" world while we all see a "different world. Like I said Quantum physics is a strange thing, but it does explain much of "reality."

So....is that as clear as mud?

But.... we still see the sun... don't we? Therefore everybody knows that it exists. What form it takes based on what of it we perceive is after everybody sees it. And then, it could be said that the reason why people have different perceptions of what it looks like is its fault.

 

[Tambourine]

I see that you've missed my point. That's fine. Haters gonna hate.

If you think I'm hating anybody here, then you haven't paid attention.