Trailblazer
Veteran Member
We don't know that from what is written in the passages.
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Does it really matter what people believe?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
That Iranian preacher has cursed those who do not accept his supposed 'divine' mission. He said that all other religions except Islam have been corrupted, but even Islam is not teneble now because he brings the latest instructions from Allah. If a Muslim does not follow him, then he too is cursed. And though he says that the messengers of Allah should not be asked for proof, he denied any who would come for another 800 years. The fact is that Allah sent Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Mahdi, in Bahaollah very life-time. Can you stop Allah from doing what he wants?
Attempts at conceptualizing God or the sincerity of the heart or the desire of the soul or the commitment to that path... certainly are all good things.
But none of these things could take your sins away, I think.
edited for clarity
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
This thread is not about Baha'u'llah, so I do not know why you bring Him into it, forcing me to set the record straight, which I have to do because that is my responsibility as a Baha'i.
“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings, pp. 171-172
“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing!” Gleanings, p. 346
Baha'u'llah was not an Iranian preacher and He did not curse anyone who did not accept His divine mission..
Baha'u'llah never said that. What He actually said about religions being corrupted is as follows:
“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings, pp. 171-172
Baha'u'llah never said that messengers of God should not be asked for proof. In fact He said just the opposite and He offered proof of His Prophethood.
No, what He said is:
“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing!” Gleanings, p. 346
You are free to believe that God sent this man if you want to, just as I am free to believe that God sent Baha'u'llah.
PureX
Veteran Member
"Jesus" is just a character in a religious story. A character that is proclaimed to have been the embodiment of God's spirit on Earth, i.e., the "Christ". Believing in Jesus is missing the whole point, I think. Because believing in the ideal of Christ is the point. Trusting in that spirit of the divine within us, and allowing it to guide our thoughts and actions, so that it can heal us and save us from ourselves, is the point of Jesus' story.
We don't necessarily even need to know of the story of Jesus to intuit that divine spirit within ourselves, and choose to allow it to guide us in life. Let alone "believe in" it's main character. If believing in the story and it's characters helps us to do that then so be it. But it's not a prerequisite.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Don't blame me, look at your first post. You are a proselytizer. You cannot write a post without quoting from Bahaollah. And you complain when we reply.
If Bahaollah was not an Iranian, then who was he? Where was he born? Where was his father born?
Haha. Now you yourself accept that he cursed those who did not believe in his divine mission.
Take out 6 or 7 million Bahai followers from the population of the world, 7.8 billion, what remains is still 7.8 billion. That means that he cursed the whole world if they did not accept him as "manifestation" (sic. appearance of Allah). That hardly matters. No one is afraid of the curses of this Iranian preacher or his Allah.".. the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation .. been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. .. are devoid of truth."
All other religions are devoid of truth, but when we ask Bahaollah for evidence about him being a messenger of Allah, then he cites the vision of the "Maid of Heaven" which he saw in the Iranian prison. Who, in his/her sane mind will believe such a proof? He was simply the king of egoists. Every word written by him reeks of his bloated ego. I do not understand how can you even tolerate it. And by Bahaollah's admission, your Allah seems to be a very cruel being, because Bahaollah accepts that his Allah's punishment is terrible.
If we are believing in Bahaollah for no reason, why should not we believe in any other person who makes a claim that he is a messenger from God. What is this crap about 1000 years. We have already discussed that Jesus came some 500 yeas after Buddha and Mohammad came some 600 years after Jesus. That means your 'manifestation', the appearance of Allah as a human, an avatara was a lier (whatever you understand by that, he had a message from Allah, then why do you not simply call him a messenger like Mohammad claimed to be). No, Bahaollah's ego needed a new, more deceptive, fancier name!
Just like Bahaollah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who was born a few years later than Bahaollah, claimed that he was the Mahdi sent by Allah. He too was a very respectable person in a place called Quadian in Punjab India. Just like Bahaollah being from a family of administrators for the Iranian Emperor, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad also was from a family of administrators for the Moghul empire. The word Qadian derives from Kazi. Their family hailed from Samarkand in Uzbekistan.
It is immaterial if I accept Mirza Sahib or not, I am an atheist, I do not accept even the existence of God, what to talk fo messengers, manifestations or mahdis. But millions of people do accept him as the Mahdi.
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Audie
Veteran Member
" Live a good life".
By whose reckoning?
You figure it does not matter what people believe?
You care to define the scope of that?
Do you need specific examples of what seemed
to the person a good lifevthat more objectively may
not have been so groovy for others?
People have a great tendency to act on their beliefs.
Actions affect others.
In the USA, a big percent of the population harbors profoundly regressive, anti intellectual,
superstitious beliefs.
That cannot fail to be a drag on the nation's competitive standing.
Those who've not really looked beyond their narrow borders may
not appreciate the reality of a world where, just over the horizon there are
hundreds of millions of smart, educated, ambitious people,
very motivated and jealous of the wealth in the hands of pampered
people in America.
There will be no sentimental tears shed when they run right over you people,
too busy with self indulgent "beliefs" and a fantasy future to heed reality.
Here is one reality: there will be no Angel with burning sword at the gates
of your trailer parks.
Believe as you like, the consequences may not be as you like.
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Heyo
Veteran Member
Beliefs shouldn't matter and I try to be impartial but when people are obviously or even aggressively religious my Spidey senses tingle.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
Hi Trailblazer
Hope everything is fine in the US, with the election and the covid out of control?
But each religion have their sources for how they work and in many of them it is simply stated that if you do not live according to what God say, then you are not considered a follower of him and then you will get punished or not receive the benefits, which in most cases are the promise of a better life.
And since we have no others sources than these, meaning we don't have a new Jesus in many of these religions, like Islam and Christianity, there isn't a new Jesus, so the only source we can lean on are the old religious texts. The Bahai believe they have Baha'u'llah, but he is not accepted as a messenger by the other religions.
So since we only have these sources and they do not say that everyone is saved, then one have to decide whether God meant it back in the days, or whether he didn't. The issue is, that if person hold the view that everyone that are good gets saved, then they have nothing to backup such claim with, as the only sources, the scriptures simply doesn't support it.
Therefore, at least to me, it solely becomes a matter of whether or not we can trust the scriptures. So for an atheist it, we don't find enough evidence in these to accept the conclusion. But it is evenly important for the believers that do not follow every single rule in it, and that for instance think that their atheist parents are saved or those of their friends of different religions are. Because if the scriptures are true, in the major religions (Christianity/Islam), then they won't be. There are simply nothing in them that suggest that people of wrong beliefs or lack thereof, will be.
Because you might live and do things based on whether or not there is an afterlife for instance. You might treat others differently, if they don't agree with your views of reality.
So clearly it doesn't matter what you do in this life, if you are of the wrong believe. And it is no different for me as an atheist, a muslim or you as a Bahai, if Christianity is true, then we will end up the same place.
As mentioned above, even for Christians this is the case, if the only way to be saved is by doing the will of God, follow the law, then the majority of Christians are not going to be saved either. If Paul was right (Which most Christians believe) and you just have to accept Jesus as you saviour, then a lot of people will be saved. Doesn't matter if you are Hitler or a mass murderer, if you accept Jesus before you die, you will be saved according to that. Probably some will disagree, but it is what the bible say, no other rules are given in regards to being saved.
So again, you have conflicting rules even for Christians in how one is actually saved.
Hope everything is fine in the US, with the election and the covid out of control?
It depends what you believe in. The Bahai view might be more generous than some of the other religions.
But each religion have their sources for how they work and in many of them it is simply stated that if you do not live according to what God say, then you are not considered a follower of him and then you will get punished or not receive the benefits, which in most cases are the promise of a better life.
And since we have no others sources than these, meaning we don't have a new Jesus in many of these religions, like Islam and Christianity, there isn't a new Jesus, so the only source we can lean on are the old religious texts. The Bahai believe they have Baha'u'llah, but he is not accepted as a messenger by the other religions.
So since we only have these sources and they do not say that everyone is saved, then one have to decide whether God meant it back in the days, or whether he didn't. The issue is, that if person hold the view that everyone that are good gets saved, then they have nothing to backup such claim with, as the only sources, the scriptures simply doesn't support it.
Therefore, at least to me, it solely becomes a matter of whether or not we can trust the scriptures. So for an atheist it, we don't find enough evidence in these to accept the conclusion. But it is evenly important for the believers that do not follow every single rule in it, and that for instance think that their atheist parents are saved or those of their friends of different religions are. Because if the scriptures are true, in the major religions (Christianity/Islam), then they won't be. There are simply nothing in them that suggest that people of wrong beliefs or lack thereof, will be.
For Christians it would matter, because God/Jesus told them to spread Christianity and because again, it's how people are saved. The ultimate goal for God, is not to take care of people here on Earth or be especially worried about what happens to them. The only thing that matters really is for people to accept Jesus as the savior so you can be saved (depending on who you believe). Or if we are to believe Matthew and the OT, then Jesus and God say we have to do the will of God, meaning follow the law.
Yes, it matters a lot.
Because you might live and do things based on whether or not there is an afterlife for instance. You might treat others differently, if they don't agree with your views of reality.
If you are referring to atheists? then we do not follow the teachings of Jesus, the majority, if not all, probably hold some sort of humanistic view as their guideline for whether one should do A or B, which is based on evaluating each option for what we believe will be best. Which is why atheists might have vastly different views on whether or not abortion for instance is ok or not. But one thing we have in common is that we do not look to religious text to tell us whether we should think one option is better than the other.
I think it is very clearly answered in most. If you take Christianity for instance, if you are not saved, you either won't be anymore or you will end up in eternal hell.
So clearly it doesn't matter what you do in this life, if you are of the wrong believe. And it is no different for me as an atheist, a muslim or you as a Bahai, if Christianity is true, then we will end up the same place.
As mentioned above, even for Christians this is the case, if the only way to be saved is by doing the will of God, follow the law, then the majority of Christians are not going to be saved either. If Paul was right (Which most Christians believe) and you just have to accept Jesus as you saviour, then a lot of people will be saved. Doesn't matter if you are Hitler or a mass murderer, if you accept Jesus before you die, you will be saved according to that. Probably some will disagree, but it is what the bible say, no other rules are given in regards to being saved.
So again, you have conflicting rules even for Christians in how one is actually saved.
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TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Does that included executing homosexuals after they had sex?
What matters is what people do.
The problem is, that actions / decisions are informed by beliefs.
So yes, it matters what people believe - at least insofar as it influences their action and decision making.
God's Spirit does, no matter who seeks release with a sincere heart, no matter what ideas of God they have with their minds, or doctrines or belief systems they either grew up with, or adopted as part of their path.
Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
As long as the heart is true, God's Grace can be received. God is bigger than any one religious system or belief. God does not have a religion.“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Obviously, I think you're being sarcastic, as I know you don't believe any of that, unless you've had some sort of recent conversion which has overtaken your prior beliefs. Certainly, it's nothing I believe. It's as untrue for Baha'is to say that, as it is for Christians to say that only their teachings can bring you to God. Cleary, that is not true.
Of course people's religious beliefs matter as religion, worldviews, culture, behavior and actions, etc. all feed other.
Personally, I prefer if a person didn't follow the teachings of Jesus, Bahawhatever and any of the other "prophets" and "messangers" of the alleged "one true God", as I believe based on observation that those beliefs systems have caused immense damage to humanity. They are imperialistic, colonialist religions that seek cultural hegemony to the exclusion of other views and folkways. They are also culture-less and serve to disconnect people from their native or ancestral cultures and practices, along with severing the relationship between people and the natural world. Their adherents have committed cultural and, sometimes, physical genocide around the globe and either still are or are trying to in various areas. I believe they have wrought a catastrophe to the human psyche and, through that, the rest of the world.
I only support people returning to the old indigenous ways of their heritage (whatever that may be) and forming healthy, mutually beneficial relationships with the environment and those they share it with. We desperately need to reconnect with nature and remember our place in it before all is lost, not be following some abstract totalitarian pipedream based on hearsay. And who cares about the afterlife; we're here now. The afterlife will take care of itself but we need to focus on the here and now.
Personally, I prefer if a person didn't follow the teachings of Jesus, Bahawhatever and any of the other "prophets" and "messangers" of the alleged "one true God", as I believe based on observation that those beliefs systems have caused immense damage to humanity. They are imperialistic, colonialist religions that seek cultural hegemony to the exclusion of other views and folkways. They are also culture-less and serve to disconnect people from their native or ancestral cultures and practices, along with severing the relationship between people and the natural world. Their adherents have committed cultural and, sometimes, physical genocide around the globe and either still are or are trying to in various areas. I believe they have wrought a catastrophe to the human psyche and, through that, the rest of the world.
I only support people returning to the old indigenous ways of their heritage (whatever that may be) and forming healthy, mutually beneficial relationships with the environment and those they share it with. We desperately need to reconnect with nature and remember our place in it before all is lost, not be following some abstract totalitarian pipedream based on hearsay. And who cares about the afterlife; we're here now. The afterlife will take care of itself but we need to focus on the here and now.
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He's just trying to sound fancy with his overwrought imitation of old English. No one spoke like that during that time. It's like the Book of Mormon tries to ape KJV-style English even though it was written in the 19th century.
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nPeace
Veteran Member
The fact that it matters what one believes is evident by what we see...
KKK
NAZIs
The Forgotten Documentary Capturing The Liberation of Nazi Concentration Camps
CRUSADES
INQUISITIONS
The Horrors of the Church and Its Holy Inquisition
GANGSTER LIFE
IMMORALITY
IMMORALITY IN SCHOOLS
My attention this week has been drawn on the rising cases of sexual immorality among students and pupils in schools. It’s disheartening the rate at which our youngsters are engaging in sex at a tender age. More worrying is the drop in sexual debut at 12 and. 14 years among girls and boys respectively.
The Bible Changes Lives
A Letter From a Police Chief
A LETTER bearing the insignia “Public Service for the State of Minas Gerais” came to the branch office of the Watch Tower Society in Brazil. It was from the police chief of the town of Conquista. Was there something wrong? Let the letter explain. It states:
“Dear Sir:
“It is a pleasure to introduce myself to you by means of this letter. I have been the chief of police in the town of Conquista, Minas Gerais, for approximately three years. At work, I always try to be conscientious, but I used to have problems in keeping the peace in the jail. The inmates, although given training in certain jobs, were restless.
“Some months ago, Senhor O—— came to our town and introduced himself as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. He began to preach the Bible to some of the prisoners, teaching them to read and write and showing them the basics of hygiene and social skills as well as telling them about the Holy Bible. The way this preacher worked showed dedication, love, and self-sacrifice. The behavior of the inmates soon changed noticeably for the better, much to the astonishment and appreciation of those observing.
“In view of what happened in our jail, I wish officially to notify the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of our appreciation for the fine work done in our community by the worthy preacher.”
Regarding governmental authority, the apostle Paul said: “Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it.” (Romans 13:3) This was certainly true in the above case. What a testimony to the transforming power of God’s Word that the good news accomplished in a matter of months what the penal system could not do in years! - Psalm 19:7-9.
One policeman said, he had grown to admire Jehovah’s Witnesses during his last 15 years as a patrol officer in New York City. He said: “I see Jehovah’s Witnesses as an organized religion whose members are sincerely interested in helping others in the community.”
Although it matters what we believe, each person has the freedom to make their choice as to what they will do with their life, and live with whatever consequences come with them.
Just like farming... whatever we sow we reap. Galatians 6:7. 8
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
You are correct, Windwalker. My views have not changed. It is proselytization attempts make me act like that. Bahais say that the only way peace could come to world is for the world to unite under the banner of Bahai religion and the government of their House of Justice, but such a view is likely to bring only conflict to the world.
They do not have the numbers or powers, and we have a very appropriate saying in Hindi/Urdu for them which says "Khudā ganje ko nākhoon nahi detā" (God does not give nails to a bald person). Because if a bald person with nails starts scratching his head, he would only hurt himself.
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Bible tells eternal life is for righteous. That is what matters and it is not the same as to believe in existence. However, I don’t think righteous person would claim that “God does not exist”. Righteousness is wisdom of the just, like right understanding and attitude that becomes visible in words and actions.
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20
God's spirit is a gentleman, as I see it: he communicates and waits for response. This is at least my impression.
It's like him inviting people to a party. If they don't go to that place, they aren't there.
for me, salvation is like a sandwich. If you don't take it, you don't have it. Even if it's offered to you and you are in every "true" condition to really eat it.
+
the way I understood your previous post, it wasn't about asking for forgiveness of sins to begin with.
It was about conceptualizing God, the sincerity of the heart, the desire of the soul and the commitment to going on a path.
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